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    Russian Gun Artillery Thread

    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:23 pm

    It just occurred to me but the rifled gun/mortar on the Phlox would be excellent for an assault gun with its short barrel, powerful HE shells and insane reach. Seriously, just take off the high velocity smoothbore gun on the T-14 and replace it with the 120 mm gun/mortar and you have an urban warfare beast.

    High rise structures with RPG teams up top - zero problems picking them off with direct fire even from the foot of the building.

    Low trenches can be dealt with using mortar bombs lobbed on the minimum charge setting.

    Course the ammunition would have to be mechanized to ensure the maximum survivabilty in high threat environments. Maybe they can reuse the new stick propellants, but saw them in sections that you can slip on and off the primer device like the conventional MACs charges.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Feb 08, 2024 9:11 am

    Armata is a vehicle family so I would expect there will be a 120mm mortar equipped version... perhaps with a Kord RWS mount on the turret for drones and threats.

    I would guess the old bag ammo would be standard charge stuff and the new much bigger propellent bags are for max pressure max range shots.

    They seem to be manually attached together on the Flox and other other platforms, but perhaps they will make a version where the projectile and propellant are simply loaded together without needing to be connected... much like current 125mm tank rounds currently are.

    Equally they could take it further with mini propellant packs like the Coalition uses... split the propellant load into the smallest increments so you can lob shells at targets 500m away that are lofted up high and come down almost vertically... which is the best way for effectiveness of shrapnel... right up to x number of bags to achieve max range and speed equivalent to the new propellant charges.

    Will be interesting.

    Perhaps an Armata Terminator with a 120mm gun and a twin barrel 23mm cannon and a 40mm grenade launcher...
    The-thing-next-door
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:56 pm

    If you are going for a 120mm rifled on an Armata, you may aswell make it capable of high pressure rounds and give it APFSDS in order to deal with light and "medium" vehicles effectively.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 09, 2024 3:43 am

    If you are going for a 120mm rifled on an Armata, you may aswell make it capable of high pressure rounds and give it APFSDS in order to deal with light and "medium" vehicles effectively.

    Not really because the 120mm mortar version of the Armata would be operating in an Armata division so there will be plenty of other vehicles able to take out armoured targets including 125mm smoothbore as well as 57mm guns, not to mention an enormous number of missiles from Kornets and Bulats on the T-15 BMP to a ground based vertically launched LMUR missile that will likely replace their Kornet armed dedicated ATGM vehicle.

    I just wonder if 120mm is enough for an Armata division and if perhaps they might dig up the 160mm mortar for a bit more weight.

    120mm mortar bombs are in the 16kg weight range while the 160mm mortar bombs are generally 40kgs each, which is quite a step up without being dramatically bigger like the 240mm mortar with its 130kg mortar bombs.

    With accuracy and special shells I would think the 120mm remains useful where precision makes up for the lighter shell, but a special Armata 240mm mortar vehicle might be useful in future eventually... even if it is made in small numbers for specific operations.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 09, 2024 4:05 am

    If you want to modify a round I would say the 100mm round of the BMP-3 would be most interesting and would fill the niche role of the 60mm Israeli light tank gun round that is probably not powerful enough for use against most modern tanks frontally, but for side shots and heavy BMPs it would be able to be carried in larger numbers.

    The BMP-3 has rounds in the turret bustle and holds about 40 rounds so with a more conventional tank ammo storage arrangement you could probably carry over 100 rounds if needed. (in a T-14 like arrangement where there were no troops carried as well).

    In terms of HE that is a good volume of ammo for supporting troops and might be a good light tank armament for environments where 125mm rounds would be overkill.

    Even mounting it on a heavily armoured Armata chassis a higher pressure longer barreled 100mm gun could deliver HE rounds and missiles to targets at 7+km range and also deal with bunkers and light vehicles from MRAPS up to most BMPs that are not actually tank based within 3-4km... and in an urban environment could aim up at the upper levels of buildings with HE rounds too.

    Looking at the performance of European special armoured light vehicles the actual protection they seem to offer is a joke so it might be overkill for APFSDS... maybe a half calibre (50-60mm) APHE sabot round that penetrates and explodes inside the target.

    I would think the mortar vehicle would be dedicated direct support artillery.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door Fri Feb 09, 2024 11:57 am

    The idea behind a 120mm multi pressure gun is that one vehicle could be used as a howitzer, mortar and lesser tank gun.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Feb 09, 2024 12:07 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The BMP-3 has rounds in the turret bustle and holds about 40 rounds so with a more conventional tank ammo storage arrangement you could probably carry over 100 rounds if needed. (in a T-14 like arrangement where there were no troops carried as well).

    40 pcs is a total ammo load, with 22 in a carousel. Some are located in the right front of the hull, while the Bastion missiles are attached to the hull sides.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:43 am

    The idea behind a 120mm multi pressure gun is that one vehicle could be used as a howitzer, mortar and lesser tank gun.

    That would only make sense if it actually replaced your howitzers and mortars and tank guns in operational units... which is silly.

    The Armata vehicle with a 120mm mortar is to replace towed 120mm mortars or VENA or Hosta or 2S9 Nona type vehicles and would be used exclusively as a mortar vehicle... just like the troop transport BTR model of the Armata will be armed with a tiny Kord turret and be a troop transport.

    If every vehicle type has to do every job then they are all going to be weak in most areas because they wont be dedicated for their role.

    40 pcs is a total ammo load, with 22 in a carousel. Some are located in the right front of the hull, while the Bastion missiles are attached to the hull sides.

    The front of the hull is filled with people... driver in the centre and bow gunners either side of him.

    Are you sure?

    The KBP site is not available from New Zealand at the moment but I am pretty sure the Bakhcha-U turret upgrade holds 34 conventional HE rounds and four Arkan missiles in the turret bustle.

    22 rounds in the bustle the same as the T-72?
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    Post  Hole Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:53 pm

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 30 0002105
    Bakcha-U

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 30 005314
    Deep inside the BMP-3. Very Happy
    Still from a video, ALAMO posted it.
    In the foreground you can see the missiles (3 of them).
    In the background is the rack for 100mm grenades.
    In the space between turret bustle and hull sides.
    A crawl way that connects the forward (driver) compartment with the infantry compartment at the
    middle/back of the vehicle.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:39 pm

    Yup, I have seen it before...

    Russian Gun Artillery Thread - Page 30 13620710

    And from one side you can count 16 x 100mm shells in the autoloader, so saying that 34 rounds are in the autoloader plus 4 missiles that are not in the autoloader because they are a rather different shape from the standard HE round is not that left field.
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    Post  ALAMO Sat Feb 10, 2024 2:30 pm

    You can mix the ammo load. According to its manual 18x spare ammo rack can be replaced for a box of 250 pcs 30 mm ammo.
    I have seen a version where 6 9M117 missiles were stored horizontally on the left side of the hull in a rack, while three others were on the right vertically. So you can obviously put more missiles if needed.

    And as it fits both here and BMP-3 thread, and I am too lazy to write that twice Laughing - you have missed one point there.

    From the very beginning BMP-3 could have been used for both direct and indirect fire.
    The parameters you have provided - 4000 and 7000 m have different ground.

    When first introduced, 2A70 fired a 3UOF17 round with 3OF32 projectile. It was a projectile taken directly from D-10 and BS-3 guns, making it far from optimal. It was a thick body piece with reduced explosives load, that produced around 2000 fragments scattering some 200m2 area. Thick body, because it had to be resistant to the much higher pressure of a tank gun.
    This projectile was fired at 250m/s, with a direct fire range of 4000m. This limitation was strictly connected with the fact that a 1K13 FCS laser rangefinder was limited to 4000m at that time. That is why both Bastion and Kan missiles - 9M117/117M range was limited to 4000m either.
    However, you could use it in the indirect mode, with a range manually provided using optical sight. You can easily guess the efficiency of that  Laughing

    To improve that, they have used the following method.
    A new PPN-D FCS arrived, with a laser rangefinder range increased to 7000m, and optical sight get an increased 14x magnification (8x for 1K13).
    This allowed a new 3UOF19 round with 3OF70 projectile to reach a 7000m of direct fire range and 5500m of effective range for 9M117M1 Arkan.
    3OF70 is being fired with 355m/s speed, and 2A70 get a new rifling module of 1/22 instead of 1/30 as it was.
    Its indirect fire range is 8700m if we stick to official data. It produces almost twice as much fragments, and covers a 350m2 area.

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    lyle6
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    Post  lyle6 Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:00 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:If you are going for a 120mm rifled on an Armata, you may aswell make it capable of high pressure rounds and give it APFSDS in order to deal with light and "medium" vehicles effectively.

    But tank-fired subcaliber shells tend to over-penetrate light and medium armor leaving the vehicle almost entirely unscathed. If they were any good at defeating the vast majority of enemy armor encountered on the battlefield the Soviets and Russians would have used subcaliber shells more in their loadouts instead of the fragmentation and cumulative staples.


    The-thing-next-door wrote:The idea behind a 120mm multi pressure gun is that one vehicle could be used as a howitzer, mortar and lesser tank gun.
    The notional Armata assault gun will operate alongside T-14 MBTs armed with proper smoothbore guns and Koalitsiya-SVs armed with rifled guns. It should do its own thing instead of acting as a weak in between for the two vehicles.


    Last edited by lyle6 on Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:10 pm

    A manual load of Soviet tank ammunition consists 26 HE rounds.
    I guess it answers all the questions, right? Laughing
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    Post  Hole Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:02 pm

    Lesson from WWII. Most of the time tanks were used for infantry support, not fighting other tanks.
    West thinks mostly in the theoretical terms of the Cold War. Tanks fighting tanks and not much else.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:46 am


    From the very beginning BMP-3 could have been used for both direct and indirect fire.

    Yes, I know. The HE rounds are low pressure and medium pressure and have to be lobbed at the target.

    This allowed a new 3UOF19 round with 3OF70 projectile to reach a 7000m of direct fire range and 5500m of effective range for 9M117M1 Arkan.

    Its indirect fire range is 8700m if we stick to official data. It produces almost twice as much fragments, and covers a 350m2 area.

    I find that a bit confusing because to me indirect fire is shells fired with the gun elevation above 45 degrees, with direct fire obviously being below 45 degrees.

    With something like a rifle the difference is clear because a Mosin rifle with its iron sights go out to 2,000m but even when adjusted to 2,000m or 2km the barrel elevation is probably less than 15 degrees. Firing at greater ranges means increasing elevation and max ballistic range would be reached at a 45 degree barrel angle... but then if you keep going to a higher barrel angle the bullet impact point does not continue to get further and further away... as you get above about 45 degrees the impact point actually starts to get shorter and shorter till the barrel is vertical (90 degrees) and the bullets will start landing around your position.

    Any shots taken above 45 degrees are indirect fire.

    The BG-15 underbarrel 40mm grenade launcher has two aiming scales on it... one in red and one in white... white is the direct fire scale and red is indirect. With a bit of practise you can load a grenade and set the range scale to hit a target... say at 250m range. You fire that grenade at 250m Red and then flip the sight to 250 white and muzzle load another grenade all the while counting out the seconds... when you get to 12 you fire your second grenade and both grenades should land at about 250m range almost at the same time... the indirect grenade taking 12 seconds longer to get to the target because its high flight profile.

    My point is that both scales max out at about 410-450m so direct fire and indirect fire are not different in terms of max range.

    The idea behind a 120mm multi pressure gun is that one vehicle could be used as a howitzer, mortar and lesser tank gun.

    What you are essentially saying is that the 120mm gun/mortar should be upgraded to replace the 125mm tank gun and the 152mm howitzer.

    Having the same gun for all three roles does not make sense... as a mortar the barrel will likely last much longer than a tank gun or a howitzer gun trying reach max velocity for max penetration or max range respectively.

    A manual load of Soviet tank ammunition consists 26 HE rounds.
    I guess it answers all the questions, right?

    And half of the rest are HEAT too...

    Lesson from WWII. Most of the time tanks were used for infantry support, not fighting other tanks.
    West thinks mostly in the theoretical terms of the Cold War. Tanks fighting tanks and not much else.

    In the west they go on about the power of the Panthers 75mm gun or the 17 pounder British gun or the 90mm American gun... but it was guns like the 76.2mm gun in the T-34 and KV-1 that did most of the work... and when it came time to upgun their medium tank they went for the 85mm AA gun, and for their heavy tanks they went for the 122mm gun because it was easier to get into large scale production and because its HE shell was more effective than the better penetrating 100mm gun.

    The tank is first and foremost a mobile gun platform to support infantry.

    Note if it was all about penetration they would have just made T-34-57s, though they lacked ammo for it... its penetration was very good and it was a small light shell they could carry in large numbers, but its HE shell wasn't amazing. (Note the 57mm in question is not the same as the modern 57mm AA gun round for the S-60 towed 57mm guns.)

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    Post  George1 Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:06 am

    Through its YouTube channel, the Russian TV network “Zvezda” showcased the self-propelled mortar 2S40 “Phlox” that was recently integrated into the Russian military. Some units were even dispatched to Ukraine last fall.

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