She just regurgitates rumors and seldom quotes the source. I read that same shit of an argument on Topwar.ru weeks ago. From what I understand the shells in Coalition are basically the same as in older ammo it is just the propellant charges are different. They would need to transport those separately, but compared with the logistical issues that Ukraine is having this would be no big deal.
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lancelot wrote:She just regurgitates rumors and seldom quotes the source. I read that same shit of an argument on Topwar.ru weeks ago. From what I understand the shells in Coalition are basically the same as in older ammo it is just the propellant charges are different. They would need to transport those separately, but compared with the logistical issues that Ukraine is having this would be no big deal.
She also used chatgpt to write her posts (by self admition)… whats the point to even read “her”
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Someone needs to build an autoloader for self-propelled mortars.
The weapon on the Vena is a gun mortar that can fire shells and mortar bombs, any automatic feed system would be incredibly complicated to allow a variety of rounds to be fired as needed.
Not impossible of course, but not easy either.
Mortar model on Armata or Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon or DT-30 chassis will need it to retain their unmanned turret design.
Is Patricia quoting russian or Ukrainian sources or is limb being retarded again like on the t-90 thread?
Patti sounds like a pro Ukraine pro nazi bitch that someone pretending to be pro Russia from the Baltic states might be paid to post to poison the waters.
No one here knows about the ammo situation in Russia but this cow does?
Yeah right.
She just regurgitates rumors and seldom quotes the source. I read that same shit of an argument on Topwar.ru weeks ago. From what I understand the shells in Coalition are basically the same as in older ammo it is just the propellant charges are different. They would need to transport those separately, but compared with the logistical issues that Ukraine is having this would be no big deal.
Which is probably true but also largely ignores the point that Russia does not need to replace all of its artillery with Coalition... they could use it in some select locations where its extra range and performance would be useful and continue to chew up Ukrainian forces with the artillery already in place.
The very idea that Russia needs Coalition or it will have no artillery at all is an obvious shot at Russia and anyone stupid enough to believe that... well I have a bridge to sell you.
The weapon on the Vena is a gun mortar that can fire shells and mortar bombs, any automatic feed system would be incredibly complicated to allow a variety of rounds to be fired as needed.
Not impossible of course, but not easy either.
Honestly, All you would need is a miniaturised version of the Koalitsiya's or Msta-SM2's autoloader.
With gun-mortars being much lighter than howitzers and their ammunition being rather small, it would make sense to have two of them and add a version of the Koalitsiya's cooling system.
Rostec began supplying new Phlox artillery guns, 10.05.2023.
Rostec began supplying the first batch of Phlox artillery guns to the troops.
MOSCOW, October 5 – RIA Novosti. Rostec has begun deliveries to the troops of the first batch of new self-propelled artillery units (SPG) Phlox on a wheelbase of 120 millimeters, the state corporation reported.
Rostec has begun transferring a batch of 120-mm Phlox self-propelled artillery guns to the troops. The gun is built on the chassis of a protected all-terrain vehicle, which allows it to quickly change its firing position after several shots,” the corporation explained.
As Bekhan Ozdoev, industrial director of the Rostec complex of conventional weapons, ammunition and special chemicals, noted, the new weapon is both a cannon and a mortar, as it can fire both shells and mines without slowing down. Phlox has improved mobility and security, it rationally balances manual and automated operations, and makes the work of the crew as easy as possible. Combined with a relatively low price, all this makes the weapon accessible and in demand among the troops,” Ozdoev added.
The rate of fire allows the self-propelled gun to fire in simultaneous fire attack mode - when several shells fired sequentially at different elevation angles simultaneously reach the target. Transferring the gun from the traveling position to the combat position takes less than one minute, and the load on the chassis when fired is reduced.
"Phlox" is designed to equip artillery batteries with the aim of destroying enemy personnel, weapons and equipment in the battalion's area of responsibility. The weapon is unified in terms of the ammunition used with "Vena" type guns, which makes it possible to use ammunition of increased power and increase the firing range. The self-propelled gun has an armored cabin and ammunition compartments, which provides increased protection for the crew and ammunition while on the move and when changing position.
Honestly, All you would need is a miniaturised version of the Koalitsiya's or Msta-SM2's autoloader.
With 82mm mortar vehicles we are talking about rounds in the 4-5kg range which can easily be hand loaded, but the 120mm rounds are 16kg plus.
They have clearly shown they know how to make automatic loaders for their gun systems... they have them for their new 57mm guns and 57mm grenade launchers in their unmanned turrets and also for their 125mm tank guns and now 152mm artillery systems, so of course they can do it.
That they choose not to suggests an issue or good reason to that we don't know.
They already have the 82mm Vasilek automatic mortar that uses a 4 bomb clip feed mechanism... modifying that into a belt system with perhaps two or three separate belts for the different ammo options should not be that hard, yet they have clearly not gone that way.
Just to go over it again for clarity, an automatic loading system is more than just a system to feed ammo into the gun automatically.
On a T-72/90 series tank the autoloading system only has the capacity for 22 rounds. Any extra rounds are stored elsewhere in the vehicle and have to be manually loaded into the under floor autoloader before they can be used or very very slowly manually hand loaded into the gun... and because there is no human loader that means the commander has to load the gun while the gunner concentrates on hitting the target... that is early WWII BS where the tank is blind because the commander can't look for new targets or for threats to their tank because he is loading and sometimes firing the gun himself.
To have an 82mm or 120mm autoloading mortar/gun system would would need to mechanise the entire ammo rack so ammo can be taken from where it is stored to a position where it can be loaded... but also put back in the rack if the gunner changes their mind about the target type.
A two piece round like the 125mm means you can extract the propellent case but not the shell/projectile so if you change you mind it is often just quicker to rotate the autoloader to the round you want to fire and then fire the round in the chamber and load the new round... you of course lose the element of surprise, but it is something you would do on the spur of the moment.
Hand loading with a human loader is cheaper and simpler and makes sense if your turret is manned anyway.
With their new vehicles with unmanned turrets then autoloading guns and mechanised ammo racks will become essential.
We know the Au-220 turret for the PT-57 has a ready to fire autoloader of 20 rounds so presumably the main stock of ammo can be loaded perhaps manually or automatically from the main ammo store into this ready to use autoloader, which means 20 rounds can be fired rapidly but then it has to reload the autoloader.
Presumably you would fire a few shells at targets and then reload the autoloader to keep it topped up... very few targets would require more than a 20 round burst...
The Russian Ministry of Defense stated that the new Malva and Phlox artillery guns are already being used in the special military operation (SVO) zone in Ukraine.
"Malva" is a promising 152-mm self-propelled artillery gun on a BAZ vehicle chassis. It was developed as part of the “Sketch” development work, the Uralvagonzavod concern reported.
"Phlox" is a 120-mm self-propelled wheeled artillery gun, mounted on the basis of the Ural army vehicle.
Comments about range increases with new ammo and new propellant are interesting for the Floks, but it also mentions that the 2S43 Malva with its spade recoil supports is rather more accurate than the tracked MSTA equivalent with the same gun is also rather interesting too... automation and connection directly with recon forces makes these three systems highly mobile and more difficult to deal with.
Last edited by GarryB on Sun Feb 04, 2024 12:23 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Edit... wrong video.... sorry... fixed.)
You can see for yourself in the video I posted... above are stills posted of the new propellant for longer range and these are images from the same video of the original 120mm shells as fired by Vena and 2S9.
As you can pretty clearly see the original propellant charge is smaller and lighter and made of white fabric and likely containing conventional propellant powder that has been used for a rather long time by 120mm gun/mortar systems in Soviet and Russian service.
What is also interesting is that both the new propellant charges and the old propellant charges are now loaded in vacuum sealed metal tubes that would prevent sparks landing on them setting them off... and also leading to much longer shelf life and reliable ignition when used whether with new or old ammo.
The talk is Russia is switching from using T (TNT) to using A-IX-2 aka hexal (73% RDX, 23% Aluminium, 4% Wax) in all its artillery shell propellant loads.
The later is typically more expensive to manufacture and uses up artillery tubes faster due to higher loads at similar loadings. The advantage is you can either get a higher propellant power, so more range, or a lower weight propellant load. I think this means that only now Russia stopped using older stockpiles of ammo and is actually using new production.
This means that Russia produces from 3.65 to 5.475 million artillery shells per year. It is still several times larger than the entire NATO military industry.
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The talk is Russia is switching from using T (TNT) to using A-IX-2 aka hexal (73% RDX, 23% Aluminium, 4% Wax) in all its artillery shell propellant loads.
The later is typically more expensive to manufacture and uses up artillery tubes faster due to higher loads at similar loadings. The advantage is you can either get a higher propellant power, so more range, or a lower weight propellant load. I think this means that only now Russia stopped using older stockpiles of ammo and is actually using new production.
What? TNT and hexal are high explosives - they are the filler for the shell, not the propellant charge.
Scorpius wrote: This means that Russia produces from 3.65 to 5.475 million artillery shells per year. It is still several times larger than the entire NATO military industry.
Garbage numbers. The Russians have no lack for artillery; they outshoot the hohols 5:1 and even up to 30:1 on the hottest parts of the front. The only reason the Russians are not shooting more is because they have finally cracked glide bombs and are now well on their way to mass manufacturing UMPK kits in the hundreds per day.
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Such sources were telling us the Russians would run out of precision guided missiles in the first few months and artillery a few weeks later... turns out the only one running out of artillery and missiles was HATO... but two years into the conflict some cling to the idea that Russia might still run out of artillery and missiles... and one might argue that now it might be more plausible, but the fact of the matter is that they don't seem to have a problem with production... it is not even effecting their economy like it is in the west... austerity measures being put in place and promises of millions of shells and missiles being broken.
The rounds shown in the video are shells, so in this case a shell with a spigot attached with propellant inside makes it a howitzer. It is interesting that when it fires the spigot that the propellant is attached to remains in the gun and is ejected backwards when the gun is opened.
If you look at a mortar bomb it basically has the same shape except the spigot part is part of the mortar bomb and is attached to the warhead. Because mortars are often not rifled the spigot remains attached to the mortar bomb as it leaves the barrel and the fins at the rear stabilise the round to improve accuracy at the small cost of extra drag.
There is a firing cap or primer in the tail of the mortar bomb that is fired by fixed firing pin in a drop mortar or a trigger (string) fired pin in breach loading or muzzle loading bigger mortars.
Along the shaft of the mortar bomb is the propellant but extra bags of propellant can be tied to it to add range and power.
Because a mortar bomb is normally fired on a very high trajectory most of the time you don't want a powerful propellant charge because that just means against targets that are not far away the bomb goes up very high and spends more time in the air on the way to the target... so more effect by crosswind and more chance for the target to move.
Howitzers are the same... normally you use the minimum propellant charge to get to the target and loft it on a high angle so the round comes in nearly vertically giving an excellent fragmentation pattern from the side walls of the round.
The large new propellant charge also suggests longer range use so it combines a mortar and a howitzer and a gun in terms of potential use... in addition of course to missile launcher with the capacity to launch the Gran 120mm mortar launched guided missile and a legacy of Hosta where the 120mm gun/mortar was going to replace the 122mm howitzer it can also fire the 122mm Kitilov guided missile round as well.
As you can pretty clearly see the original propellant charge is smaller and lighter and made of white fabric and likely containing conventional propellant powder that has been used for a rather long time by 120mm gun/mortar systems in Soviet and Russian service.
What is also interesting is that both the new propellant charges and the old propellant charges are now loaded in vacuum sealed metal tubes that would prevent sparks landing on them setting them off... and also leading to much longer shelf life and reliable ignition when used whether with new or old ammo.
The white charge bags are sleeves filled with propellant that are tied together and slip over the primer device before the assembly is screwed together with the shell.
The new propellant charge is the full power charge option for extended range shots and piercing hard concrete - not necessarily replacement for the old modular charge bags.
The white charge bags are sleeves filled with propellant that are tied together and slip over the primer device before the assembly is screwed together with the shell.
Similar to extra propellant bags used on mortar bombs and in howitzers where the extra propellant is calculated to optimise the trajectory... so you might add one or two or three or more bags to a mortar round which together with the angle of the barrel combine to reach the target.
Here is Tulip...
The rear tube leading to the tail contains propellant and the visible holes let the gas escape into the mortar tube when the mortar is fired blowing the bomb out and on its way to the target. The mortar contains the minimum standard propellant charge.
To get the bomb to go further you can tie extra propellant bags like the ones we are talking about around the tail like this:
There is a limit to how many extra propellant bags you can use and part of the calculations to hit the target include how many extra propellant bags you will need.
Why are they using a crane? Because these bombs are 120-130kgs each without the propellant bags added...
There is also a guided missile shell called Smelchek:
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