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66 posters

    Su-25 attack aircraft

    Isos
    Isos


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    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 19 Empty Re: Su-25 attack aircraft

    Post  Isos Tue Sep 27, 2022 2:58 am

    limb wrote:So what happens when the amount of Su-25 airframes runs out due to wear and tear and combat losses? Restart production lines? Spend 2 decades developing and testing a replacement?

    They are developing drones and buying a huge ammount ka-52 and mi-28 that didn't exist when su-25 was created. Both can use missiles and rockets in a much better way than su-25 which is quite old. Sm3 upgrade is good but they still use only rockets.

    If there is a need they can easily set up a production line for su-25 which isn't a state of art product hard to make.
    limb
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    Post  limb Tue Sep 27, 2022 3:41 am

    Isos wrote:
    limb wrote:So what happens when the amount of Su-25 airframes runs out due to wear and tear and combat losses? Restart production lines? Spend 2 decades developing and testing a replacement?

    They are developing drones and buying a huge ammount ka-52 and mi-28 that didn't exist when su-25 was created. Both can use missiles and rockets in a much better way than su-25 which is quite old. Sm3 upgrade is good but they still use only rockets.

    If there is a need they can easily set up a production line for su-25 which isn't a state of art product hard to make.

    They only use rockets for the SM3 because potbelly dinosaurs think only rockets are useful. The SM3 can shoot X-29T, Vikhr, X-29L, Grom, X-38, UPAB, drel, Izd.305, S-25L, etc.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:09 pm

    limb wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    limb wrote:So what happens when the amount of Su-25 airframes runs out due to wear and tear and combat losses? Restart production lines? Spend 2 decades developing and testing a replacement?

    They are developing drones and buying a huge ammount ka-52 and mi-28 that didn't exist when su-25 was created. Both can use missiles and rockets in a much better way than su-25 which is quite old. Sm3 upgrade is good but they still use only rockets.

    If there is a need they can easily set up a production line for su-25 which isn't a state of art product hard to make.

    They only use rockets for the SM3 because potbelly dinosaurs think only rockets are useful. The SM3 can shoot X-29T, Vikhr, X-29L, Grom, X-38, UPAB, drel, Izd.305, S-25L, etc.

    The Kh-29T, Kh-29L, Vikhr, S-25L were in service already long before the potbelly dinosaurs became potbelly dinousaurs. I think they're intimately familiar with their capabilities. The Su-25 tends to have a certain mission profile suited to its range, speed and optimal altitude - and typically for those it won't use anything larger than a S-25L, Vikhr or Izd. 305; with the preference to just the S-25L.
    Rest of the stuff might be used 0.1% of the time when in a pinch or better suited aircraft for air-to-ground missiles aren't available.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:27 pm

    So what happens when the amount of Su-25 airframes runs out due to wear and tear and combat losses? Restart production lines? Spend 2 decades developing and testing a replacement?

    Why not both?

    Russia had the production facilities to build the two seat model aircraft, which was used for the Su-25T and Su-25TM upgrades, both of which were considered too expensive to bother producing... the Su-25SM3 uses the normal aircraft with less internal volume for stuff, so improved upgrades in the two seat versions might be interesting.

    They are developing drones and buying a huge ammount ka-52 and mi-28 that didn't exist when su-25 was created. Both can use missiles and rockets in a much better way than su-25 which is quite old. Sm3 upgrade is good but they still use only rockets.

    The Su-25TM is based on the two seat model and has more internal volume for bits and pieces... the T and the TM model added Vikhr ATGMs and I would say these new 110kg missiles with 30kg warheads that seem to be for replacing the Kh-25 missiles would be ideal for a new strike aircraft as well as for drones... a 40km range and perhaps carrying them on an increased number of weapon pylons... not to mention clusters of small guided bombs that could be carried in large numbers too.

    The Il-102 had bombs of up to 250kg size that could be carried internally in a bomb bay mounted in the wings, but their new rocket pods are boxes and would be an absolutely ideal shape to form part of the wing... lowered for firing and loading, while retracted for low drag (not even a weapon pylon).

    Rocket pods and dumb bombs are valuable weapons for such aircraft types and with modern avionics and continuously calculated ballistics computers their delivery can be surprisingly accurate and effective.

    They don't need to reinvent the wheel... some sort of standardisation of MMW radar and EO systems for helicopters and aircraft and drones would be very useful and effective... larger calibre guns that don't have high velocity rounds but pack a powerful punch like those 57mm grenade launchers firing heavy HE bombs would be more effective than rocket launchers in some roles...

    If there is a need they can easily set up a production line for su-25 which isn't a state of art product hard to make.

    Not a complex or expensive plane.

    They only use rockets for the SM3 because potbelly dinosaurs think only rockets are useful. The SM3 can shoot X-29T, Vikhr, X-29L, Grom, X-38, UPAB, drel, Izd.305, S-25L, etc.

    You are not listening... when the enemy is 100 men spread out over a large area either running forward to attack or back to escape a missile like Vikhr or Grom or even a 250kg bomb is not that useful... with them spread out and the concentration of the blast you might only get 4-8 men with each hit if you are very lucky.

    With unguided rockets or cannon shells you can spray the field with dozens of explosives each of which might be dangerous to 10-20m in radius, but again all hitting close together is a bad thing because your 10-20m kill radius is for each munition or shell so having them all hit together concentrates your fragments into a small area.

    A volley of rockets spread over a large area where no two rockets land within 10m of the other offers a good spread of fragments making it likely you will kill or injure a much larger portion of the enemy.

    Lofting those in the air has been shown on video to spread the rockets out beautifully... this is terrible for use against a truck or tank, but for enemy troops in the open it is the best option... the only other option that comes close is very high speed aircraft releasing cluster bombs from a higher altitude than normal that really spreads out the submunitions... but most western countries get shitty when other countries do that.

    New mini guided munitions means aircraft with lots of wing pylons become more interesting and multi ejector racks for tiny guided missiles becomes interesting... whether that is the Kh-25 replacement or even just Vikhr pylons... I would say Vikhr and another similar setup for SOSNA/Pine would be excellent... both are guided and have decent range... PINE has excellent speed and would be very good for air and ground targets too, and Vikhr is the same but slower (1,200m/s vs 600m/s), but the new rocket pods would be a core part of the aircrafts armament.

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    George1
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    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 19 Empty Re: Su-25 attack aircraft

    Post  George1 Tue Dec 27, 2022 8:00 pm

    On numerous videos on the resources of the Ministry of Defense from month to month, day after day you can see the same picture: a pair (link) of Su-25 takes off with two outboard fuel tanks PTB-800 and two units B13L NAR of the S-13 family, launches missiles from a pitch-up and returns to its native airfield  

    At the same time, many viewers should have some bewilderment:
    1) why attack aircraft fly out on a combat mission underloaded ? ( 6 out of 10 underwing hardpoints remain empty);
    2) why are the Su-25s releasing the NAR from a pitch-up ? (in fact, "in the white light"). Let's try to answer these and other questions.
    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/281713.html

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:22 am

    Which is just what we have been saying... unguided rockets are to attack spread out soft targets or to hit areas you know the enemy occupies but you don't have precise coordinates for each individual target.

    Lofting the rockets has the double bonus of allowing their use from standoff distances... outside the range of HMG and light automatic cannon and also MANPADS which are heavily deployed on this battlefield, and also giving otherwise rather accurate rockets a good spread on the target area which expands their kill potential.

    If all the rockets landed in the same place you might as well just be launching one rocket because if its fragments don't kill then the next rocket to hit that location wont kill anyone either... having the rockets land all over the place is a good way to deal with a modern army that does not bunch together and spreads out in the hopes that one artillery round wont kill them all.

    Lofted rockets spread the impacts and improve the chances of multiple kills and multiple damage.

    The unguided rocket is like the machine gun... you don't fire at individual people, you fire at groups.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Fri Jan 13, 2023 8:12 pm

    In the western strategic direction, in the near future, there will be assault aviation units equipped with the famous "Rooks" -attack aircraft of the Su-25 family. Until recently, the Western Military District did not have a single assault aviation regiment. Su-25s are capable of radically increasing the power of the Ground Forces. The tasks of the new aviation units will include destroying important enemy targets and strongholds, as well as supporting Ground forces on the battlefield. According to experts, this will increase the effectiveness of Russian forces ' actions in the western direction.

    Heading West

    The Ministry of Defense is currently working on the deployment of aviation units equipped with Su-25 attack aircraft in the western direction, sources in the military department told Izvestia. The task of the "Rooks" will be to directly support the Ground Forces on the battlefield. Attack aircraft will also interact with army aviation helicopters.

    Previously, there was a military unit with Su aircraft in the western strategic direction-25 — 899-1st Guards Assault Aviation Regiment. It was based in the Voronezh Region at the Buturlinovka airfield. However, in 2009, the regiment was disbanded. As part of the strategic exercises "West-2017" and "West-2021", this direction was strengthened by attack aircraft of the Southern and Eastern military Districts. But at the end of the maneuvers, the Rooks returned to their permanent locations.

    FULL ARTICLE: https://translated.turbopages.org/proxy_u/ru-en.en.a9c0b227-63c15716-8b6d05ae-74722d776562/https/iz.ru/1453664/roman-kretcul/grachi-priletaiut-zapadnoe-napravlenie-ukrepiat-modernizirovannymi-su-25

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    limb
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    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 19 Empty Re: Su-25 attack aircraft

    Post  limb Sat Jan 14, 2023 12:48 am

    On numerous videos on the resources of the Ministry of Defense from month to month, day after day you can see the same picture: a pair (link) of Su-25 takes off with two outboard fuel tanks PTB-800 and two units B13L NAR of the S-13 family, launches missiles from a pitch-up and returns to its native airfield

    At the same time, many viewers should have some bewilderment:
    1) why attack aircraft fly out on a combat mission underloaded ? ( 6 out of 10 underwing hardpoints remain empty);
    2) why are the Su-25s releasing the NAR from a pitch-up ? (in fact, "in the white light"). Let's try to answer these and other questions.

    If the Su-25 only has less than 450km range with only 2 S-13 pods, why doesnt russia make frontline makeshift runways for them around 100km from the frontline? the Su-25 is easily rugged enough for that. They could just make them take off from civilian roads and hide them in random warehouses. or underground.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jan 14, 2023 7:57 am

    Fuel tanks are probably cheaper that dispersed operations.

    When the enemy is trying to go guerilla then having your air operations at a single airfield sounds like a vulnerable target because all your aircraft and people are located in one place, but all your defences and protections are there too.

    Splitting your air groups into 2-3 planes each operating from a section of motorway or road means multiplying the targets the enemy can hit while diluting their defences and protections.

    The speed an Su-25 can fly at a few extra 100km flight distance is not that important... an extra 20 minutes on the flight perhaps?

    Edit: I would also add that the logistics of delivering not just fuel but also ordinance and spare parts to the different operational locations creates a supply line that would be easy to ambush too and would be rather complicated to manage as well, which increases the chance of a group of planes not completing their mission because not enough rockets were delivered to their operating location... or the aircraft recovered to the wrong stretch of road and so have to taxi to the correct location...

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    AMCXXL
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    Post  AMCXXL Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:57 am


    franco wrote:In the western strategic direction, in the near future, there will be assault aviation units equipped with the famous "Rooks" -attack aircraft of the Su-25 family. Until recently, the Western Military District did not have a single assault aviation regiment.

    Yes, it seems somewhat expected, although there are not too many Su-25s available, especially after the losses of Su-25s in the Ukraine and reorganization will be necessary.

    The growth of helicopter regiments to brigades will probably make Su-25s disappear in Buddyonovsk and Chernigovka.
    It is quite likely that Su-25s will end up burned in Ukraine

    On the other hand there are already Su-25 in the western district brought from Domna for the Special Military Operation.
    Settled first in Belarus and then returned to Russia, in google they have been one squadron in Sescha for months, although they may have moved again

    It may be that this squadron of Su-25 will be assigned to Voronezh as the third squadron of the Su-34 regiment, I see it as quite difficult for a full regiment of Su-25 to open since stocks have dropped considerably.
    Another possibility is to open a mixed regiment in Shatalovo similar to the one in Gvardeiskoye in Crimea.
    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 19 Sescha10

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:18 am

    How do you estimate the losses for su25?

    How many su25 are able to be mustered by VKS

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