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63 posters

    Su-25 attack aircraft

    miketheterrible
    miketheterrible


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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:08 pm

    relying on drones is asking for a disaster, especially in the growth of ECC and ECCM systems. Iran proved that Drones can be easily intercepted.

    GarryB, d_taddei2, lancelot, Broski and Arkanghelsk like this post

    Isos
    Isos


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    Post  Isos Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:42 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:relying on drones is asking for a disaster, especially in the growth of ECC and ECCM systems.  Iran proved that Drones can be easily intercepted.

    They will have su-57 and checkmate to attack such targets.
    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 18, 2022 8:58 am

    Honestly, there is no need to replace the Su-25.

    As long as the new design is sensible armoured tank rather than fragile glass stealth shit, making a new design is a good idea.

    The losses during the war on both side show they have no real future unless they use stand off weapons.

    You can't look at their losses in a vacuum... what was their effect on the battlefield...

    A drone might be disposable but if it can't support the troops and immediately gets shot down all the time then it is worse than useless.... and they are not cheap either.

    With a Gefest & T upgrade an Su-25 dropping cheap dumb bombs from 7-8km altitude out of range of small arms fire and MANPADS would be interesting, but would it be as effective at finding targets and destroying them?

    New optics and radar systems developed for attack helicopters and drones would be interesting... an Su-25 can certainly carry more fire power than any drone could deliver, and while no self defence system is perfect improvements are being developed all the time...

    Drones with precision guided munitions will do a better job without risking pilots life.

    That is not proven, drones operating at the same altitudes are even less situationally aware and are therefore more likely to get shot down.

    Drones proved ineffective in Syria and Iran against decent air defences... there is no magic bullet fix to defeat air defences... even ones as damaged as the Ukrainian one is at the moment.

    But I suspect this is the Su-25s last flight

    With nothing to replace it of course it will continue.

    For the Sturmovik role, Sturmovik drones are the future

    I would want to see the operational shturmovik drone before I get rid of the Su-25.

    So what kind of talk is this about su25 last fight

    Needless to say the last conflict HATO fought where there were plenty of modern MANPADS around the place they chose not to fly below 8km altitude... in Kosovo.

    Ka-52 also had self protection systems yet they got hit. Those systems aren't protecting 100%.

    NO SYSTEMS ARE 100% PROTECTED.

    The aircraft can inflict a lot of damages but it takes heavy loses too.

    It is a war... not a game.

    Drones can do most risky mission with better survivability and hunt AD systems.

    Can they? Drones seem to be much easier to bring down than manned aircraft so far.

    Then su-34 can launch kh-31 to take out radars and bigger system and bombing once no AD is left.

    Su-25 can launch Kh-31 too. Are you not getting it? AD doesn't go away on a modern battlefield... how do you bomb away Igla?


    But work on an unmanned version or a drone with the same flight profile and capabilities should begin IMHO.

    Unmanned platforms have much shorter lives and are normally much more vulnerable to enemy fire because they normally have no armour at all.

    They will have su-57 and checkmate to attack such targets.

    Yeah, the A-10 and Su-25 have been replaced many times through history because they are too vulnerable... but each time, whether it is a modified version of an F-16 called the A-16, or it is a Yak-130 LIFT with standoff weapons they never actually work because they are too fragile and get shot down too easily, or the standoff distance means they can't find the more dangerous targets and deal with them.... costing the ground forces vehicles and men... but saving risking a pilot...

    The fact is that you need a slow armoured aircraft that can provide direct fire and deal with targets on the ground operating within the envelopes of small arms fire, and despite CAS aircraft being declared obsolete or too vulnerable, they keep on using them.

    Tanks have the same problem with ATGM and mines and all sorts of threats... but tanks are still used because they provide a service nothing else provides and does a job nothing else can quite match.

    Tactics and new systems can reduce the chance of loss but nothing is 100% safe on a battlefield... not even a Maus at the time it was designed... destroy the tracks, set the engines on fire and break the guns and wait for the crew to bail to kill them.

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    George1
    George1


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    Post  George1 Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:49 pm

    Broski
    Broski


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    Post  Broski Fri Mar 18, 2022 7:32 pm

    Personally, I would prefer that they relaunch an upgraded version of the Su-25 with updated production technologies designed for the Su-57 so it'll be lighter, more durable and with better survivability against MANPADS. CAS aircraft aren't going anywhere for the foreseeable future, they're just too valuable on the frontlines.

    GarryB and d_taddei2 like this post

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


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    Post  Arkanghelsk Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:56 am

    So far confirmed losses are 3 to 5 SU25 for VKS

    So it's not bad compared to losses of su34, ka52 , or mi24

    In reality it's excellent against high intensity IADS enemy

    Su25sm3 needs to come online, and replacement should be designed

    Something armored, built tough, and with redundant systems to ensure survivability

    But overall su25 performance with the right tactics were excellent

    Mostly they used S8 rockets,  I would have liked to have seen S24 used, as well as kh25 and kh38

    Also I don't know if su25 was used in bombing runs

    Also s25 rocket is good against hard targets
    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:07 am

    The interesting thing is that this damage is near the engine exhausts, which suggests they were not Igla, Igla-1 or Igla-S missiles or Verba missiles... Soviet and Russian missiles since the 1980s would lead the heat source to hit the belly centre of the target rather than the engine nozzles... these are either old Strela missiles or if they are Stingers then they are elderly shit obsolete model stingers.

    Whether they are getting brand new stuff or old cast offs they have plenty of MANPADS so they need designs with protected engines and perhaps even active IR jammers like heat lamps as well as DIRCMs... the more systems the better it will be able to cope because lets face it... the Orcs most likely are very well equipped with ATGMs and MANPADS and wont be deploying single systems at a time in a shoot and scoot type op... more likely they will have multiple operators near a likely intended target of Russian air power and they will likely launch all at once or within a few seconds so the targets have multiple inbound coming from different directions all at once... which is going to be a problem for any aircraft.

    To be clear the west has wild weasel types and the F-18 growler designed especially for EW protection of other aircraft... other aircraft that have their own MAWS and self defence systems too... if the F-117 isn't safe then why would any helicopter or CAS aircraft be safe?

    The... if it can't survive 100 hits then they might as well move around in trucks mentality is just stupid... everything is developed for a role and lots of other things are developed to counter those things from performing their role and the circle of counter counter measures never ends... sometimes armour is winning and sometimes it is the ATGM that is winning.

    What we do know is when Serbia has MANPADS... likely in nothing like the numbers the Orcs have... the HATO forces choose to protect their own pilots by bombing from orbit where friend and foe can be hit... they can't be sure.  Well protecting a dozen pilots would lead to a death sentence to hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground because their air support is not working and it makes them terribly vulnerable to enemy attacks, not to mention the loss of vehicles as well... so the money you save by keeping your Su-25s and Ka-52s shiny and safe at home, will instead be spent on more ground forces getting killed trying to dislodge targets a 125mm tank shell might not deal with, but a 250kg bomb would.

    There have been a range of advances in ceramic armour and crew protection in land based vehicles... applying that to a new aircraft design makes sense... and is an excellent opportunity for a design bureau to improve the current fleet with a new type.

    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 18 35099_10

    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 18 35785_10

    Something like this?

    Or maybe a turboprop?

    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 18 31478_10

    Su-25 attack aircraft  - Page 18 31629_10

    With the engines above the wings... and separated...

    Note the model with the jet engines has large thrust reversers for short field ops, and the lack of canard wings should improve visibility.

    I think both would benefit from a decent integral gun with lots more ammo than the Su-25 carried, but it does not need to be massive... 30mm seems good enough, though an option for the 57mm grenade launcher gun would be interesting if they could make it work.

    Maybe a screen on the engine intakes during burst fire with the APFSDS rounds to prevent the Sabots being ingested?

    d_taddei2 and lyle6 like this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


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    Post  GarryB Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:10 am

    I must say I liked the wingtip airbrakes on the original Su-25 and think it could be incorporated into the flight control system to allow a yaw turn (normally a pedal turn) of rather more speed and angle than the tail surface could provide simply by deploying the airbrake on one side only momentarily to turn the nose to fire rockets or guns at a target...

    Some sort of wing tip pod would also be useful for DIRCM lasers and sensors to provide more complete coverage of the aircraft in combat.

    I am sure they have lots of ideas up their sleeves.

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