Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+52
Rodion_Romanovic
Sprut-B
magnumcromagnon
thegopnik
limb
calripson
Arkanghelsk
nemerson
lancelot
owais.usmani
Daniel_Admassu
Kiko
The-thing-next-door
Scorpius
PhSt
Gazputin
Nibiru
Hole
KiloGolf
GunshipDemocracy
KomissarBojanchev
gaurav
Big_Gazza
PapaDragon
miketheterrible
T-47
George1
OminousSpudd
Singular_Transform
Project Canada
kvs
Flanky
Regular
Austin
Kyo
Rmf
Werewolf
mack8
Vann7
mutantsushi
Mike E
zg18
xeno
TR1
Morpheus Eberhardt
Hannibal Barca
navyfield
coolieno99
Viktor
GarryB
solo.13mmfmj
Admin
56 posters

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:11 pm

    Rmf wrote:soyuz will carrry and will continue to carry anyway...llol
    angara is just not that great leap as people think. indenpendence from baikonur is biggest reason.

    Soyuz carries crew of four, is reusable and can be launched from Russian territory? Shocked

    Thanks for the fresh info, I had no idea of these developments! lol1
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:47 pm

    youre runing a circular argument here , trying to look smart and yet disrespect others ... i wont answer to your provocations .
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:29 pm

    Rmf wrote:youre runing a circular argument here , trying to look smart and yet disrespect others ... i wont answer to your provocations .


    Angara + PTK/NP => Everything (cargo & manned) is done in Russia on standardized gear

    Zenit + Proton + whatever else they got now => Mess, failure, Phobos Grunt...

    Straightforward enough?
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39156
    Points : 39654
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:10 am

    If they can bring down the costs enough, they could launch two A5's for the price of one.

    They can bring down the cost by only having to build one rocket for a wide range of payload weights...

    They can bring down the cost by using a modular rocket design so they are buiding one type of rocket for every launch instead of half a dozen.

    the reason for angara a-5 is the geosyncronus orbit . you should check the payload capacity to gso not leo. heaviest commercial satelite was about 6+ tonns. and first angara a-5 flight was with dummy 2 tonns. with briz-m upper stage it would be 3 tonns and with still hypothetical kvtk 4,5 tonns.... even a5v modification which is long way off into 2020s would be 7,5t.
    For example energya in 1990 ,had 20tonns capability.
    try that perspective.

    The Angara rocket is not supposed to replace any need for much larger super heavy rockets for heavy payloads for lunar and interplanetary missions, it is just supposed to replace all the small and medium weight toxic rockets with a unified rocket design.

    The AK12 can't shoot down satellites... it must be a failure as an assault rifle too I guess...

    so whole year without angara a5 launch? where is that mass production? not in your lifetime ...

    Ahh... I get it... they plan for an Angara 5 but because they have not launched one this year they will not launch one for the next 40 plus years.

    What part of that prediction is relevant?

    Do you have any evidence of a Russian satellite that needs to be launched into geostationary orbit that weights more than 4 tons?

    how much cheaper 10 ,100x cheaper ,where you pull this numbers of? your ass?? noo way, it will be more expencive then proton for many years or decades due to retooling...

    A billion times cheaper of course because we are in the land of exaggeration called the internet.

    Launching things into space will never be cheap but making one type of rocket that is modular and can be scaled to fit the launch payload is the most sensible thing that anyone has come up with in quite a while. Nothing you will moan about will change that.

    and there are very efficient launchers there too ,zenit ,soyuz -2 , zenith sealaunch is more efficient by default and always will be- it launches from equator.

    And none of those are as useful from Russian territory... Sealaunch is a brilliant idea made pathetic because of the partnerships it required to work. A failure at the moment.

    Russia would have been better off with almost any other country... even Japan.

    you and many people make same mistakes , this are not cars mass production and modular do not make it cheap !

    No... of course... much cheaper to hand make each rocket tailored exactly to the payload weight.

    Can you then explain why they would bother with a modular design if that is so silly?

    You do understand any new rocket will be expensive when it first starts production, but the fact that they will be producing these in enormous numbers means production will be optimised and costs reduced as over time they will be better and more efficient at making them and costs will come down because they will get a very accurate idea of how long it takes to make and what materials are needed and what materials are wasted in production which will allow them to better predict how long it will take them to make and what materials will be needed and when.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6022
    Points : 6042
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:17 pm

    as for Proton, I have heard that some SW codes in 90s were passed to US and they can use them for crashing delivery of satellites...maybe thet´s why not proton?
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:12 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......................
    as for Proton, I have heard that some SW codes in 90s were passed to US and they can use them for crashing delivery of satellites...maybe thet´s why not proton?

    There are several problems with Proton:

    1) For Cold War standards it was reliable, for today's not so much.

    2) Fuel is extremity toxic. I am sure that Hydrazine would easily qualify as a chemical weapon. Now imagine entire rocket loaded with it. It caused a few deaths already.

    3) Design and troubleshooting is extremely primitive. No CAD, they still use paper blueprints. No Embarassed

    4) Very poor on-board electronics. No way of knowing that something is wrong until whole thing goes up in flame. Angara on the other hand practically tests and launches itself thus greatly reducing risk of man made errors.  

    5) Overall a very obsolete system that, unlike Soyuz, has no significant or, at all, any real upsides to it. Exactly the opposite in fact...
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6022
    Points : 6042
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:14 pm

    PapaDragon wrote: 4) Very poor on-board electronics. No way of knowing that something is wrong until whole thing goes up in flame. Angara on the other hand practically tests and launches itself thus greatly reducing risk of man made errors.  

    5) Overall a very obsolete system that, unlike Soyuz, has no significant or, at all, any real upsides to it. Exactly the opposite in fact...

    I guess that´s why Angara was designed to replace older stuff and instead of Proton/Soyuz and many smaller (like zeniths, rokots ) one modular. I do not understand this "rage against Angara" . It has its foreseen role. If heavy rocket will be needed I am sure solution will be found.
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:21 pm

    No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,
    then how you expect people who want to orbit satelites to go for angara - ooops there goes mass production and "cheaper factor" , you arent going to make 50 angara-a5 anyaway per year so its useless to talk that way. they will go for european or usa launchers.
    Angara will launch from bit northern position so payload is less then baikonur , its direct orbit will cover  mongolia and alaska and will be far off europe so correction is needed.
    Polar orbit can be achieved from plesetsk which is closer to industrial centers and already has all infratructure anyways.
    and angara need more payload capacity , you are thinking limited you want to launch to langrangian points or deep space probes for example -not only gso, so it lacks on every front.

    Amateurish people just dont look objectively , they dont think reason and start posturing and circular arguments...

    Soyuz has 4 strap on booster -those can be mass produced too... only true reason for angara would be baikal- return on glide boosters.
    those engines on urm boosters can be used 5 times so they are made more durabe , heavier- and -expencive!
    yet they are tossed away.
    zenit which can deliver 1 tonn to gso  is waisted and needed just a fraction of money waisted on angara. btw look at ownership structure on sealaunch now Wink
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:44 pm

    Rmf wrote:No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,
    .................................

    Factually incorrect. Fact.
    Werewolf
    Werewolf


    Posts : 5920
    Points : 6109
    Join date : 2012-10-24

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Werewolf Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,
    .................................

    Factually incorrect. Fact.

    Spoiler:

    All the numbers at the last spot are failures that are listed to what reason all rest are succesful.

    It is high failure rate among class space rockets but it is still a succesful system. The Soyuz 2 is still top.

    http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/proton.html
    kvs
    kvs


    Posts : 15178
    Points : 15315
    Join date : 2014-09-11
    Location : Turdope's Kanada

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  kvs Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:36 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,
    .................................

    Factually incorrect. Fact.

    Spoiler:

    All the numbers at the last spot are failures that are listed to what reason all rest are succesful.

    It is high failure rate among class space rockets but it is still a succesful system. The Soyuz 2 is still top.

    http://www.spacelaunchreport.com/proton.html

    The FTO category is rather useless since it includes all the failures of the Briz-M POS module to do its job.
    After 1990 the Briz-M has been the primary point of failure, so the Proton cannot get the blame.

    I'd like to see all the studies of hydrazine contamination at Baikanur. It's mostly political BS.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39156
    Points : 39654
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:09 am

    angara is just not that great leap as people think. indenpendence from baikonur is biggest reason.

    And even on its own would be reason enough...

    trying to look smart and yet disrespect others ... i wont answer to your provocations .

    Funny I was thinking the same when reading your posts here...

    No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,

    Proton is old... let it go. Angara will get cheaper over time....everything is more expensive when not yet in serial production.

    then how you expect people who want to orbit satelites to go for angara - ooops there goes mass production and "cheaper factor" , you arent going to make 50 angara-a5 anyaway per year so its useless to talk that way. they will go for european or usa launchers.

    The Russian military on its own needs lots of launches over the next few years so even without foreign orders they will be busy.

    and angara need more payload capacity , you are thinking limited you want to launch to langrangian points or deep space probes for example -not only gso, so it lacks on every front.

    Of course mr expert.... they are making angara because it makes no economic sense to do so... let me guess it is a plot by Putin... his brother invented angara and that is the only reason for its use... Rolling Eyes

    Amateurish people just dont look objectively , they dont think reason and start posturing and circular arguments...

    But professional expert people like yourself have complete clarity and no bias whatsoever...

    btw look at ownership structure on sealaunch now

    Who cares about ownership of a turd? It is a US based system that would be politically crippled if Russia completely owned it so it has zero future as far as I am concerned.
    Even if they had 100 contracts to launch satellites US sanctions would likely prevent the vessels and Boeing from cooperating with Russian companies... they are looking to sell the ship and launch platform... it is pretty much dead.

    No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,

    A T-55 is more reliable and much cheaper than a T-90AM... lots of reasons to buy T90AM instead of T-55 today though...
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 6022
    Points : 6042
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:41 am

    GarryB wrote:
    angara is just not that great leap as people think. indenpendence from baikonur is biggest reason.

    And even on its own would be reason enough...

    I guess first satellites military and telco to have independent navigation/intel/internet so Angara as is.

    Then Moon for deuterium/tritium race is about to begin. So Angara will need to adapt then or complemented by something heavier.



    GarryB wrote:

    Of course mr expert.... they are making angara because it makes no economic sense to do so... let me guess it is a plot by Putin... his brother invented angara and that is the only reason for its use...  Rolling Eyes


    Garry you owe me cleaning of keyboard because spilled my morning coffee when I was reading Smile
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:30 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    angara is just not that great leap as people think. indenpendence from baikonur is biggest reason.

    And even on its own would be reason enough...


    Who cares about ownership of a turd? It is a US based system that would be politically crippled if Russia completely owned it so it has zero future as far as I am concerned.
    Even if they had 100 contracts to launch satellites US sanctions would likely prevent the vessels and Boeing from cooperating with Russian companies... they are looking to sell the ship and launch platform... it is pretty much dead.

    No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,

    A T-55 is more reliable and much cheaper than a T-90AM... lots of reasons to buy T90AM instead of T-55 today though...

    lets not start with tanks, snipers, aliens ,whatever and wtf else- its stupid comparison and wild analogies like that dont work most of time...

    Angara -baikal would be something new and better , but this is more of the same... selfdiagnostics is used by zenit so its from that age not something new.
    and i just want to point out zenit is russian by now so they have the rocket , i guess its very hard to make new launch floating ramp or convert old oil ofshore platform- for tiny fraction of billions of money used to build vostochny.??
    lol !
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:33 pm

    [quote="kvs"][quote="Werewolf"]
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:No rage, it is- if you are 2-3 times more expencive then proton with angara, and proton is very reliable - fact,
    .................................



    The FTO category is rather useless since it includes all the failures of the Briz-M POS module to do its job.
    After 1990 the Briz-M has been the primary point of failure, so the Proton cannot get the blame.  

    I'd like to see all the studies of hydrazine contamination at Baikanur.   It's mostly political BS.

    interesting briz is a small module , they could have built and tested hundreds of it in vacuum chambers to iron out the flaws... but thats russian space program. !
    although briz is military by nature (as satelite killer carrier) so it could be under some restrictions but that should be over long ago. by the way angara will be using briz too in top stage tongue Laughing
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:45 pm

    Rmf wrote:........................................

    Angara -baikal would be something new and better , but this is more of the same...

    Warp engine would be something newer and even better.... Razz  

    Rmf wrote:
    selfdiagnostics is used by zenit so its from that age not something new.

    Oh really? So all those catastrophic Sea Launch failures never happened, platform did not spend months in repairs and it was all just our imagination?  

    Self diagnostics on Zenit works magnificently I see...


    Rmf wrote:
    and i just want to point out zenit is russian by now so they have the rocket , i guess its very hard to make new launch floating ramp or convert old oil ofshore platform- for tiny fraction of billions of money used to build vostochny.??
    lol !

    Why not go all the way and go back to buying military gear from Ukraine?

    Zenit is obsolete junk. Had it been even remotely usable it would not end up in BS feelgood "international" ponzi-scheme like Sea-Launch.

    But sure, let Kazakhs keep blackmailing Russia because  they should have only spaceport that Russia has to use. I still remember Kazakhs getting really full of themselves back in the day over access to Baikonur but when Vostochni started nearing completion they changed their tune so fast it was hilarious.
    A bit like MAZ/Kamaz situation...IN SPACE!!!lol1

    Watching them squirm so soon after their attempting their little extortion was so pathetic that I almost felt sorry for them...almost.  Maybe this will motivate them to develop their own space industry (that is how they were rationalizing it before reality sunk in and they started begging Roskosmos to also use Angara on Baikonur).

    And I really like how you constantly ignore the fact that manned spaceships need to be launched in addition to satellites. How the f*ck do you do that from a floating platform?


    Also :
    ....................
    Zenit (Ukrainian: Зеніт, Russian: Зени́т; meaning Zenith) is a family of space launch vehicles designed by the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau of Soviet Union, and since the early 1990s by the same design bureau but now a part of Ukraine.......
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zenit_%28rocket_family%29
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 18342
    Points : 18839
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  George1 Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:10 am

    Russia postpones Angara-A5V launches until 2025 due to space program cuts

    The Angara-A5V carrier rocket with an oxygen-hydrogen stage was supposed to be used for launching a manned spacecraft to the trajectory of flight to the Moon

    MOSCOW, January 22 /TASS/. The Russian Space Corporation Roscosmos has postponed the launches of the Angara-A5V heavy carrier rocket with an oxygen-hydrogen stage until the middle of the next decade, suggests the draft of the Federal Space Program for 2016-2025.
    The Federal Space Program drafted by Roscosmos will be submitted to the Russian government.
    The Angara-A5V was supposed to be used for launching a manned spacecraft to the trajectory of flight to the Moon.
    Under the program, the ground experiments involving the Angara-A5V carrier rocket are to be completed in 2025. No test flights are being planned for an earlier date.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/science/851546
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:46 pm

    i agree youth needs some inspiration and goal, we had too many lost generations... the mars mission would lift whole intelectual base of the nation and give some goal for young ones to become inteletuals and enterpreneurs instead of drugs clubbing whoring etc.... we will never solve all problems on earth and never be in perfect financial situation.
    look at sochi winter games how much did those cost 20,30 ,40 bill dolalrs ? mars mission ould be done with 50 bill i guess for sure and spread over several launches and 10-15 years it wouldnt be such a burden.
    nobody will remember sochi in 10 years but humans on another planet first in history will be remembered forever and bring true glory and pride to that country.
    everyone would forget moon.
    and sochi as PR show was ruined because of coup in ukraine so russia got negative Press anyways.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:55 pm


    Russia’s A5V heavy-lift rocket to be ‘ready for lunar missions by 2025’ – Roscosmos chief to RT

    https://www.rt.com/news/338092-russia-angara-moon-roscosmos/

    Russian engineers have presented a prototype of Russia’s most powerful “Angara A5V” heavy-lift rocket that may perform its first manned flight to the Moon by 2030. As RT has learned from the Roscosmos chief the project is proceeding according to schedule.
    TrendsSpace exploration

    “At the end of February we drew up a preliminary design of a heavy-lift rocket Angara A5V. It is now being reviewed by all relevant research institutes,” the head of Roscosmos Igor Komarov told RT.

    The A5V spacecraft would add to Russia’s brand-new Angara rocket family which is based on unified Universal Rocket Modules (URM). Angara has been in development since 1994 and became the first spacecraft family produced entirely after the Soviet era.

    Unlike its “siblings” – Angara A5 rockets – Angara A5V is slated to be more efficient and capable of transporting a payload of up 38 tons. While looking quite similar, both featuring one core and four booster URMs as the first stage, due to some upgrades A5V can lift over 10 tons more than Angara A5.

    The main difference between Angara A5V and Angara A5 is an oxygen-hydrogen booster, which will replace oxygen-kerosene propelled upper stages, and the upgraded engine thrust of the first stage boosters.

    Roscosmos, however, is still looking at years of tough work and development to make its plans a reality.

    “We have to complete preparations for lunar missions and for A5V by 2025,” Komarov said.

    If in the future tests are successful, the Angara A5V may perform the first manned flight to the Moon sometime in 2030. The next stage would be manned lunar landing missions, which could come to fruition by 2035. One such mission would most likely require from four to six launches of the Angara-A5V spacecraft.

    In between now and then, there is also the heavy lift Angara A5, which is scheduled to deliver first useful load to orbit next year – and perform the first take-off from a specially designed launch pad at Russia’s brand new Vostochny Cosmodrome by the end of 2021.

    In December 2014, Russia’s space agency already successfully test-launched Angara A5, which delivered a dummy payload right into geostationary orbit.
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:02 pm

    they are totaly delusional ,they will never get payload that high. they are trying to make angara what it was not ment to be. this thing will never fly but putin and his cronies wont be alive by 2030 so who cares, i can bet anyone in the universe!

    let me elaborate in this edit: usefull payload to LEO is usually around 3% of rockets start weight ,bit smaller on smaller rockets larger on very large rockets, 4% is considered very very good.
    for example- energia had 100t payload and about 2.500t start weight with large hydrogen/oxygen core.
    this angara will weight at about 820tonns...
    that means payload cant be larger then 33t even if they use hydrogen in their rocket. 25t payload for nominal angara a5 is 3,1% which fits perfectly with other kerosine fuel rockets.
    Also modular rockets suffer from nonoptimal stage-weight distribution then linear dedicated rockets -thats their biggest problem ,and in case of angara -upper stages will be too heavy .... so they plan to use inlarged 10% forced booster engines rd-191 already streched to limits -meaning more complication risk and money thrown.

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4660
    Points : 4652
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Apr 03, 2016 6:12 am

    Rmf wrote:they are totaly delusional ,they will never get payload that high. they are trying to make angara what it was not ment to be. this thing will never fly but putin and his cronies wont be alive by 2030 so who cares, i can bet anyone in the universe!

    let me elaborate in this edit: usefull payload to LEO is usually around 3%  of rockets start weight ,bit smaller on smaller rockets larger on very large rockets, 4% is considered very very good.
    for example- energia had 100t payload and about 2.500t start weight with large hydrogen/oxygen core.
    this angara will weight at about 820tonns...
    that means payload cant be larger then 33t even if they use hydrogen in their rocket. 25t payload for nominal angara a5 is 3,1% which fits perfectly with other kerosine fuel rockets.
    Also modular rockets suffer from nonoptimal stage-weight distribution then linear dedicated rockets -thats their biggest problem ,and in case of angara -upper stages will be too heavy .... so they plan to use inlarged 10% forced booster engines rd-191 already streched to limits -meaning more complication risk and money thrown.


    Totally delusional? Show me your credentials as a qualified aerospace engineer and I may accept your opinion as valid...

    I personally doubt that an Angara 5V with liftoff mass of 821T will deliver 40T to LEO, but it should be able to meet mid-to-high 30s without issue. I should add that I think the often-quoted 821T mass is insufficient. A mass increase of only 62T for a greatly enlarger hydrolox 2nd stage? I'll believe that when I see it...

    Similarly an enlarged RD-191 variant will not be an engineering issue, and only requires cost/time resource to be made a reality.

    My take is that Angara 5V upgrade is very plausible, though I think the performance boost is likely to be over-stated. It does however remain a good way to leverage the existing development potential of the existing 25T class launcher to support heavier manned spacecraft for lunar activities.
    Rmf
    Rmf


    Posts : 462
    Points : 441
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Rmf Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:54 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Totally delusional?  Show me your credentials as a qualified aerospace engineer and I may accept your opinion as valid...

    I personally doubt that an Angara 5V with liftoff mass of 821T will deliver 40T to LEO, but it should be able to meet mid-to-high 30s without issue.  I should add that I think the often-quoted 821T mass is insufficient.  A mass increase of only 62T for a greatly enlarger hydrolox 2nd stage?  I'll believe that when I see it...

    Similarly an enlarged RD-191 variant will not be an engineering issue, and only requires cost/time resource to be made a reality.

    My take is that Angara 5V upgrade is very plausible, though I think the performance boost is likely to be over-stated.  It does however remain a good way to leverage the existing development potential of the existing 25T class launcher to support heavier manned spacecraft for lunar activities.
    sure no problem only couple hundred millions and 10 years... Laughing
    you guys are hillarious and that pr picture posting papa idiot top is totaly wasted lol1
    bythe way what are your credentials? why should i tell you my profession anyway? why you think only aerospace can say that? and if he said 100tonns to LEO then you would belive him? Laughing
    do you know why they put hydrogen stage weight so low?? make it any heavier and rocket will lose speed.
    because core stage with single rd-191 engine is pushing it after 4 boosters separation ,and it cant, it has thrust to weight ratio lower then 1... its called nonoptimal stage weight distribution angara is wayyy to top heavy...
    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza


    Posts : 4660
    Points : 4652
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Big_Gazza Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:25 am

    Rmf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:

    Totally delusional?  Show me your credentials as a qualified aerospace engineer and I may accept your opinion as valid...

    I personally doubt that an Angara 5V with liftoff mass of 821T will deliver 40T to LEO, but it should be able to meet mid-to-high 30s without issue.  I should add that I think the often-quoted 821T mass is insufficient.  A mass increase of only 62T for a greatly enlarger hydrolox 2nd stage?  I'll believe that when I see it...

    Similarly an enlarged RD-191 variant will not be an engineering issue, and only requires cost/time resource to be made a reality.

    My take is that Angara 5V upgrade is very plausible, though I think the performance boost is likely to be over-stated.  It does however remain a good way to leverage the existing development potential of the existing 25T class launcher to support heavier manned spacecraft for lunar activities.
    sure no problem only couple hundred millions and 10 years... Laughing
    you guys are hillarious and that pr picture posting papa idiot top is totaly wasted lol1
    bythe way what are your credentials? why should i tell you my profession anyway? why you think only aerospace can say that? and if he said 100tonns to LEO then you would belive him? Laughing
    do you know why they put hydrogen stage weight so low?? make it any heavier and rocket will lose speed.
    because core stage with single rd-191 engine is pushing it after 4 boosters separation ,and it cant, it has thrust to weight ratio lower then 1... its called nonoptimal stage weight distribution angara is wayyy to top heavy...

    Here we go... another puerile RMF rant....

    FWIW by profession I'm an Engineer, specifically Electrical, Instrumentation, Controls Systems in the Oil & Gas industry with 25+ years of experience.  An engineering background allows one to make reasonably educated guesses even for those disciplines outside of ones core competencies....

    Regarding the upper stage weight, an "oversized" upper stage can be accommodated by changing the sequencing and thrust levels of the core and strap-ons.  Instead of burning the strap-ons quickly while the core is throttled down, run all 1st stage engines at a similar rate so that by the time the strap-ons are exhausted, the core is mostly spent and the ascent profile can be maintained by the core with throttle set to max (low remaining propellent mass will boost kinetic performance) until 2nd stage seperation.  You'll need to up-rate the engines to lift the heavier stack, and you'll lose some performance from increased drag losses on the strap-ons running longer, but drag falls off at altitude so its do-able.  

    Bottom line is that Angara is a new system just entering IOC and it has lot of development potential that can be leveraged.  Just like current day Soyuz & Proton are greatly more capable than the 1st gen launchers, late-model Angaras  (like 5V variant) will also have greater performance.

    BTW - A5V payload to 200km LEO is slated as 35T not 40T.  The higher value is based on cross-feed and the use of new engines with extended nozzles for better performance at altitude, and these are unlikely as it adds significant cost for little extra capability.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39156
    Points : 39654
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:28 am

    First he was butt hurt because Russia was abandoning space to American domination because Angara was incapable of carrying large loads to LEO... now he is complaining that the system they propose wont be able to do what they are proposing it will be able to do.

    Perhaps he just comes here to complain and this is therapy for him?

    Perhaps he does not understand economics in the real world.

    In the west when you have no money you borrow and spend more and then when the economy improves you try and pay off some debt.

    In Russia you cut back unnecessary spending, but when things get better you can increase funding again... this way you don't piss all your money away on interest on loans.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 13311
    Points : 13353
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  PapaDragon Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:05 am


    Angara infrastructure completed at Plasetsk.

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/76109/

    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 C3BldHNzdHJveS5ydS91cGxvYWQvcmVzaXplX2NhY2hlL2libG9jay9hNTUvNzQyXzQ5Ml8xL3RrLWthLWZvdG8tXy0xNi5qcGc_X19pZD03NjEwOQ==


    Sponsored content


    Next Generation Rocket Angara: News - Page 9 Empty Re: Next Generation Rocket Angara: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat May 18, 2024 1:44 am