5th gen light mulltirole fighter/Mikoyan LMFS

GarryB wrote:There were no practical reasons for this... A MiG-29 is as good a plane as the Flanker was and for the vast majority of missions the MiG was more than enough.... and cheaper, but for political reasons they went for Flankers in a big way... helped obviously by their export success.

Hahaha, they went for the Flanker because it was not Communist you say... good one

They are replacing old obsolete equipment and systems and replacing them with new to make them cheaper to operate and support. A dumb bomb aiming system is great for third world COIN ops, but can you honestly say Su-33s will be the first choice with two iron 500kg bombs to take out US carriers?

SVP-24 is not replacing equipment, is added one to make a good bomber out of the Su-33. A good start, we will see whether they keep on developing it into a weapon for naval strike with high end AShM like they have shown many times at airshows.

The bullshit they have been spouting about the MiG, it is probably not worth it... the MiG-35 is a new plane with new technology that wont be cheap.

Oh yes, if they buy 110 MiGs it will be worth it...

Indias plans are domestic production of their own planes of their own design, in the long term MiG can't rely on them for their market going forward.

They had many plans before, but they are still buying 21 MiG-29 out of pure need. Offering a good product at a good price will always work, and if not, using a big contract to modernize the company is more than enough.

You are putting too much emphasis on size... the MiG-35 is vastly cheaper to operate than the Su-35, which is the aircraft it will be paired with (Su-30 actually).

Sure... meanwhile you:
> Don't have a clue how much cheaper MiG-35 is compared to Su-35
> Say it is cheaper because it is smaller.

What are the other arguments for it being cheaper to operate than the Su-35?

When using Su-57s then MiGs would give away their presence...

MiGs cannot keep up with the Su-57 in range or speed, and of course they would not give away the Sukhois. Your excuses are specially weak today...

In that case there is no need to have both MiG and Sukhoi if their suppliers provide the same engines and the same radars and same components...

You are making me laugh today. There are tons of degrees of freedom for every bureau, Sukhoi is not guilty that as of late MiG tends to choose the wrong ones.

you lose all competition and diversity and choice... UAC can then dictate to the Russian military what they can have instead of the other way around.

Drama queen. They don't need thousands of suppliers of tires, landing gear or screws. They need a consolidated, efficient industry where basic products have few degrees of freedom (because it brings nothing to do otherwise) yet complex systems where design philosophy plays a role have a few design schools competing for the best idea to win.

Plus half your contractors will go bust and stop developing and innovating.

No, they will dedicate themselves to something useful hey are good at, instead of duplicating efforts.

Yeah, you are not paying attention... the MiG-35 is not their LMFS entry... it is their Su-35 equivalent.

If you were paying attention you would remember I said that already weeks ago, apart from the post above, too. Su-35 had a time in early 2000, twenty years later is simply terribly late compared to the status that Sukhoi has reached.

The Su-57 basically looks like a Su-35 with stealthy reshaping on a fundamental level, but there is no guarantee the MiG LMFS entry will have the same layout as the MiG-35.

Among the very few concrete evidence about it there is the LOI with UAE for developing a 5G light fighter based on the MiG-29, in case you don't remember it.

The MiG-35 and Su-35 have excellent efficient and capable shapes in terms of aerodynamics, but they have had access to super computers and plenty of time to test all sorts of shapes and layouts and structures and materials... they might end up with an F-22 or a YF-23 or it might be something radical...

This is wishful thinking...

The MiG-35 and Su-35 and F-22 are all basically the same layout and planform of the MiG-25...

... and this is BS

Many of the issues with the MiG-35 probably revolve around the AESA radar and other issues that really do not relate to MiG... the sub contractors that work for MiG work for other companies too but the integration of a fighter AESA radar with fighter engines and fighter sized IRST etc etc is not going to happen on any platform other than a light fighter and for the moment what other platform will they have experience of doing that with?

You don't know who is to blame, but MiG as program head needs to be in charge and not allow i.e Phazotron, if it was their fault, to ruin their plans, they can go to Tikhomirov. It is ok they develop it and make experience, but when they are too late they are coming increasingly close to defeating the whole purpose.

The MiG-35 MiG was developing for India is not the same design they are making for the Russian AF... for a start it contains all Russian components... something that was changed in about 2014 for most Russian weapon makers.

They put essentially anything behind the name "MiG-35" depending on the venue.

How about we wait to see what the MiG-35 can do before we declare Sukhoi as being the best at everything.

I am just saying that Sukhoi has come much further into 5G and beyond that MiG, that is a no brainer.

Remember Klimov 3D thrust vectoring nozzles are genuine 3D nozzles... not 2D nozzles installed on an angle to simulate 2.5D thrust vectoring.

That nobody uses, yes.

In both cases they took the original design and massively upgraded every aspect as far as their technology allowed, but it is bad when MiG does it according to you.

It is bad when MiG follows the principle "and me too" for anything Sukhoi does, only they do it later and worse.

I see it as following the plan.

Me too, but I don't like the plan

You want to see the from scratch new design.... WTF do you think the LMFS is going to be?

Hey there quite few people in this world with a clearer idea what they think LMFS will be, to the point of having modelled it including internals etc  

As well as operational costs and purchase price... which is sort of what you want in a lighter fighter design.

You have no freakin numbers

Now tell me one thing the Su-35 is ahead of MiGs LMFS design... what do you mean that is not fair comparing a design we don't know everything about with a design we know nothing about... isn't that just as fair as comparing a 4th gen light fighter with a 5th gen medium fighter and demanding the light fighter to be better?

No clue what you are talking about. Who has said anything about LMFS, I don't even know for sure it will be done...

Which suggests sharing information and technology across the companies would avoid such waste and lead to several new engines with much better capabilities.

It is amusing to think you believe that Saturn is the centre of the Russian engine universe, Klimov can make pretty good engines too and might already be working on new technology that Saturn never considered.

The fact that MiG are talking about a Mach 4.2 new MiG-41 suggests Klimov might have a product that can operate as a ramjet at the very least...

Yak proposed some designs with lift fans but never actually built any for production... perhaps that is for a reason?

No idea.

The Yak-38 and Yak 141 used fixed twin lift jets that were dead weight in normal cruise flight, but that does not mean they could not have redesigned them to allow their use in normal cruise flight reducing thrust performance requirements for the rear engine in normal operation.

The monopoly domination in fighter aircraft by one design bureau and one jet engine maker would damage future development and procurement prospects.

They need to take care of that for sure

Engine diversity is a good thing and smaller lighter engines are cheaper to design and make.

No and no. First expensive, second is just another engine and therefore expensive. Scaling one core is way cheaper than designing different engines in different sizes from scratch.

Having two 5th gen engines is better than having one.

GarryB pays

The difference between a 4th gen fighters engine and a 5th gen fighters engine are no magic... once you work out what design you can use to turn an Al-31 into an Al-41, and then Al-51 or whatever this new engine will be called... the same changes and upgrades and materials can be used to change RD-33s too.

See above. It would be a scaled Lyulka/Saturn engine.

It means serious changes in the fundamental design of the engine so that the engine can generate the required thrust at the necessary altitude and flight speed... so using one engine for light and medium fighter aircraft that might have flight speed limits of mach 2 and mach 2.5, and the same engine for a heavy interceptor that operates at mach 4.2  is obviously going to be a problem.

It is clear that writing my tirades about ABVCE, RTA and so on has not served any purpose with you, you understood zero from all that.

Medium fighters (Su-27)

I left it there  

Having a specialist plane with a specialist role use a standard engine is a waste of time and energy and money unless the ultimate plan is for all the planes that use it also fly that fast... which is unlikely.

You still don't get it...

But this is different... the light fighter will be more of a swing fighter supporting ground forces or local forces rather than flying high and fast dominating the air space like the medium fighter would.

VCE... and BTW Su-57 and the like are heavy fighters. MiG-29, Rafale etc are medium.

Plans are good, but all plans need to be flexible and change is a normal part of management.

You don't understand those plans, so UEC will change them to suit your mood.

Personally I think the solution is to use two of the smaller lighter cheaper engines and get the best of both worlds...

I give up

So you admit there is a danger in being too light, that is good...

Sure there is, I told you 100 times a plane with less than 10 t empty will probably not have a substantial internal weapon carriage capability.

but this is not for Russia... this is for cheap light fighters for poor countries so actually the RD-33 is actually ideal...

LMFS not for Russia? One more bet admitted

if you didn't have a bug up your arse about Klimov and MiG.

If you had not noticed it, my user name is a MiG project. But I still have some objectivity and they are simply not in their best moment. If Sukhoi comes up with better ideas, then they should develop the light fighter.

Hahaha, they went for the Flanker because it was not Communist you say... good one

No. Sukhoi was not really linked to the previous commuinst regime, whereas MiG was.

MiG was the favoured boy of the Soviets, and Sukhoi was not and that essentially reversed when the Regimes changed.

SVP-24 is not replacing equipment, is added one to make a good bomber out of the Su-33. A good start, we will see whether they keep on developing it into a weapon for naval strike with high end AShM like they have shown many times at airshows.

It is not something a deep strike aircraft or multirole fighter would require... it is not fitted to the Su-34 or Su-35 for instance.

Oh yes, if they buy 110 MiGs it will be worth it...

Only if they can admit their medium stealth fighter programme and Tegas programmes are failures because that is the gap it would fill.

They had many plans before, but they are still buying 21 MiG-29 out of pure need.

But they are buying old generation MiG-29s with essentially an Indian focussed SMT upgrade... which does not suggest future planes to go MiG-29M or MiG-35 which are different airframes and essentially different aircraft to the ones they currently operate.

Sure... meanwhile you:
> Don't have a clue how much cheaper MiG-35 is compared to Su-35
> Say it is cheaper because it is smaller.

If it wasn't cheaper it would not exist.

What are the other arguments for it being cheaper to operate than the Su-35?

MiG claims it is cheaper.

MiGs cannot keep up with the Su-57 in range or speed, and of course they would not give away the Sukhois. Your excuses are specially weak today...

Yeah, of course... a group of Su-57s operating with a group of MiG-35s will just fly away from the aircraft they are operating with because they are faster.... right...

And you can fly any 4th gen fighter with low visibility stealth planes because the enemy can't see any of them and just ignore them...

There are tons of degrees of freedom for every bureau, Sukhoi is not guilty that as of late MiG tends to choose the wrong ones.

I think someone might have spiked your drink... neither MiG nor Sukhoi alternate the engine and radar makers for their aircraft.

Drama queen. They don't need thousands of suppliers of tires, landing gear or screws.

Wow.... that takes real balls calling me a drama queen and then talk about thousands when we are clearly talking about two.

They need a consolidated, efficient industry where basic products have few degrees of freedom (because it brings nothing to do otherwise) yet complex systems where design philosophy plays a role have a few design schools competing for the best idea to win.

But where do you draw the line?

A Su-57 based transport plane to replace the An-124?

It is the design level where you need choice and alternatives... any production factory could make what they are tasked with making assuming their buildings and production lines are big enough.

No, they will dedicate themselves to something useful hey are good at, instead of duplicating efforts.

So they don't need lots of toilets... just one big one and delegate someone to have a big shit in the morning so they don't all have to waste that time...

Engine tires are not redesigned for every use, though some specific uses might require extra capabilities that standard tires are not up to the challenge of.

The very idea that everything on a new plane is state of the art brand new created from scratch is amusing.... most wires and connectors and components are standardised and mass produced for every aircraft it is fitted to.

If you were paying attention you would remember I said that already weeks ago, apart from the post above, too. Su-35 had a time in early 2000, twenty years later is simply terribly late compared to the status that Sukhoi has reached.

The main rival still hasn't made their Su-35 equivalent though they are in the process so why are you talking about being too late?

Su-35 is better than anything the west has right now and MiG-35 will be a shorter ranged lighter equivalent that is also superior to 90% of the planes the west operates. Considering they will be operating inside the worlds most powerful IADS and there are also MiG-31s and Su-57s as part of that system and soon S-350s and S-500s and all sorts of other brand new systems being added all the time I think the Russians are in the best situation that they have ever been before in their history vis a vis external threats.

[quote]Among the very few concrete evidence about it there is the LOI with UAE for developing a 5G light fighter based on the MiG-29, in case you don't remember it.

}

Yeah, I heard that rumour.... but a quick look on wiki at UAEs current airforce inventory makes me really think it is all bollocks.

I mean if they had MiG-29s in service or MiG-29Ms or MiG-35s on order then it might make sense but with M2Ks and F-16s on their books I would say not likely at all.

[quote]This is wishful thinking...

If they don't change the shape much and just make it fundamentally stealthy then that is probably because they are happy with the current shape... why do you think the MiG-29 and Su-27 being good aerodynamically is a bad thing?

... and this is BS

It is an obvious and clear fact... two engines, two vertical tails, main wing and horizontal tail surfaces, nose mounted radar and cockpit behind that... all perfectly conventional and similar... the only difference is that on the MiG-29 and Su-27 they use separated engines and blended wing designs to generate and enhance body generated lift to further improve performance.

You don't know who is to blame, but MiG as program head needs to be in charge and not allow i.e Phazotron, if it was their fault, to ruin their plans, they can go to Tikhomirov. It is ok they develop it and make experience, but when they are too late they are coming increasingly close to defeating the whole purpose.

Things take time and if it was easy they would already have it.

A radar is a system that is not just some sky tv dish you pop in the nose of the plane...

Ironically MiG has more experience with PESAs than any other company on the planet.... the MiG-31 has had one since the late 1970s...

They put essentially anything behind the name "MiG-35" depending on the venue.

The design bureau does not choose the aircraft designation.... the Russian Air Force does, or the customer does, so the internal designation of the MiG-35 might be MiG-29MMMMMMMMMBIS for all we know.

I am just saying that Sukhoi has come much further into 5G and beyond that MiG, that is a no brainer.

It is a no brainer because Sukhoi has been running a funded programme to develop such technologies... when funding for the LMFS programme starts MiG could catch up and even surpass Sukhoi... if UAC has any brains it will get Sukhoi division to share information with the MiG division for the project to reduce wasted resources and money trying to reinvent something already created for the job.

That nobody uses, yes.

Nobody uses most of the technology from the Su-57 yet either... the fact is that MiG and Klimov have technology that Sukhoi clearly lacks.... which refutes your claim that Sukhoi is the be all and end all.

It is bad when MiG follows the principle "and me too" for anything Sukhoi does, only they do it later and worse.

MiG is just doing what teh Russian government ordered all Russian design bureaus to do... fix up your existing designs to eliminate all their flaws and make them more effective and useful and also in the background create a revolutionary new from scratch design that is a generation ahead that will replace it in service.

The new generation model has been on hold because the Russian government decided to focus on the Su-57 programme, so the equivalent MiG programme has been delayed, but that is nothing to do with MiG and everything to do with the Russian governments choices.

Which also include keeping the Ka-52 and Mi-28 helicopters despite a lot of overlap in performance...

Me too, but I don't like the plan

It allowed a broken near collapse third world gas station country produce what is probably the best 5th gen fighter... and now that that is ready for serial production they can then focus on development and production of a lighter model 5th gen fighter to compliment it.

Hey there quite few people in this world with a clearer idea what they think LMFS will be, to the point of having modelled it including internals etc

The most important part of that comment is "idea what they think LMFS will be".

You have no freakin numbers

I am not making the plane... I don't need the numbers...

No clue what you are talking about. Who has said anything about LMFS, I don't even know for sure it will be done...

You said it all in the first two words...

Rolling Eyes

So you are suggesting MiG are talking about a Mach 4.2 replacement for the MiG-31 without sorting out a suitable engine to allow them to achieve such speeds... are you suggesting they expect a suitable engine to just fall from the sky to make that happen?

Are you suggesting they think someone else will supply them with a suitable engine or just hoping such an engine will be available at the time their new aircraft is ready for testing?

When the Yak-38 and Yak-141 were being developed vectored thrust engine nozzles were in their infancy so having downward pointing jet engines that could shift their angle of thrust and provide balance and a main engine nozzle that had fine degrees of angle capacity that could eliminate the need for puffer jets in the nose and wingtips and tail surface to allow control during landing and takeoffs that are vertical where wing and tail surfaces offer no assistance can radically simplify the design of the aircraft... having pipes leading from the hot main engine sections delivering high pressure hot air to the nose and wing tips and tail of the aircraft adds serious weight and serious danger with combat damage and adds to the fragility of the plane that all reduce performance.

Having three nozzles you can move and shift around to balance your plane on in the hover makes it much much simpler and cheaper, but does not help a lot with problems regarding hot air ingestion in the main air intakes, but it solves problems.

Getting to a point where forward mounted lift jets could be angled in forward flight to generate forward thrust could solve other fundamental problems with VSTOL fighters to make them rather more viable as combat weapons.

They need to take care of that for sure

Giving all fighter programmes immediately to Sukhoi and Saturn is not taking care of that.

No and no. First expensive, second is just another engine and therefore expensive. Scaling one core is way cheaper than designing different engines in different sizes from scratch.

They are going to have three distinct 5th gen fighters... a heavy long range fighter interceptor operating a very high speeds (MiG-41), a medium long range fighter that might spend most of its time supercruising around the place but might also need to go fast (mach2 to chase down some targets or boost the range of weapons being launched at serious enemy targets) (Su-57) and a lighter fighter that will be a numbers aircraft that might occasionally supercruise but most of the time will be operating in a small region protecting that airspace from enemy airpower and drones or engaging enemy targets on the ground in that area (LMFS/MIG-35).

The speed and altitude and normal use of such engines for the three different aircraft are different enough to warrant three different engines in my opinion.

They might share materials and parts of designs but no one design is going to be ideal for all three different roles.

GarryB pays

Sorry, my 50 trillion dollar trust fund is currently tied up paying for Putin shrines to be built in cities around the world...

It is clear that writing my tirades about ABVCE, RTA and so on has not served any purpose with you, you understood zero from all that.

Pretty much yes.

You still don't get it...

Al-41s and izd 30 engines in MiG-31 upgrades?

Probably not.

So it makes even less sense to try to use the same engine for a mach 2.4 Su-57 and a mach 4.2 MiG-41.

For the same reasons that Su-35 and MiG-31 don't share an engine... both can supposedly go about mach 2.4 most of the time with the MiG-31 occasionally wanting to go faster for a short dash.

VCE... and BTW Su-57 and the like are heavy fighters. MiG-29, Rafale etc are medium.

Not in the Russian AF.

You don't understand those plans, so UEC will change them to suit your mood.

I doubt they would share their full plans with us... what they show will be a summary of what they can show.

I give up

Which is what Sukhoi is up against trying to get the Russian military to accept a single engined light fighter.

The Russian Air Force don't give a shit about saving some fuel or making maintenance cheaper... they want their planes to make it home after combat damage...

Sure there is, I told you 100 times a plane with less than 10 t empty will probably not have a substantial internal weapon carriage capability.

With modern weapons getting smaller and lighter and more accurate why do you think a heavy payload is critical for a light fighter?

The MiG-21 had a 2 ton weapon payload... why do you think its modern replacement needs more?

LMFS not for Russia? One more bet admitted

Are you retarded.... we are talking about the single engined use of the RD-33 in Chinese planes as a budget plane for third world customers... china is not making single engined RD-33 based aircraft for an LMFS replacement and neither is MiG.

LMFS will have two engines. and therefore enough engine power for a decent payload or good range but likely not both without inflight refuelling support which most third world countries don't have... except the US.

If you had not noticed it, my user name is a MiG project.

LMFS is a Russian AF project... if it was a MiG project then this Sukhoi suggestion of a scaled down Su-57 with a single engine would not even get consideration.

GarryB wrote:MiG was the favoured boy of the Soviets, and Sukhoi was not and that essentially reversed when the Regimes changed.

Yes nobody in the Communist Party was aware of Sukhoi building the premium fighters of the air force, and they were never involved in these prizes given to Pavel Sukhoi:

Hero of Socialist Labor (1957, 1965)[1]
Lenin Prize (1968)[10]
Stalin Prize, first class (1943)—for the creation of the Su-6[10]
USSR State Prize (1975—posthumous)[10]
Three Orders of Lenin (1945, 1957, 1975)[1]
Order of the October Revolution
Order of the Badge of Honour (1936)
Order of the Red Banner of Labour (1938)
Order of the Red Star (1933)
Tupolev Gold Medal—For outstanding work in the field of aeronautical science and engineering (1975)

It is not something a deep strike aircraft or multirole fighter would require... it is not fitted to the Su-34 or Su-35 for instance.

SVP-24 is an add-on improvement for planes that unlike Su-34 have no in built systems for precision bombing...

Only if they can admit their medium stealth fighter programme and Tegas programmes are failures because that is the gap it would fill.

The Tejas is a light fighter, AMCA is a future 5G. Maybe they cancel the tender for medium fighters and go for the AMCA directly, that may happen

But they are buying old generation MiG-29s with essentially an Indian focussed SMT upgrade... which does not suggest future planes to go MiG-29M or MiG-35 which are different airframes and essentially different aircraft to the ones they currently operate.

It suggests that they suck at planning and are too optimistic, ending up with crappy planes, reduced numbers of squadrons, lots of accidents and rushed decisions. BTW, the next generation of MiG-29 is the same plane with some updates and it has a lot of commonality with the training, logistics etc that they already know.

If it wasn't cheaper it would not exist.

Says you, and we don't how how much cheaper it is. It may well be just cheaper because it uses less fuel and nothing more.

MiG claims it is cheaper.

I don't remember that sorry, and vague claims are cheap.

Yeah, of course... a group of Su-57s operating with a group of MiG-35s will just fly away from the aircraft they are operating with because they are faster.... right...

Working together in the same mission does not necessarily mean flying together like a happy family, more when those planes don't have the same bases and flight parameters. And mixing stealth planes with conventional ones is a nice way of surprising the enemy BTW. A non LO plane could provide jamming for LO ones, for instance. High RCS is not contagious from one plane to another.

I think someone might have spiked your drink... neither MiG nor Sukhoi alternate the engine and radar makers for their aircraft.

More humour. Care telling me the manufacturer of MiG-31's engine? And radar please?

But where do you draw the line?

Where I told, or better where Russian MIC is saying. Just follow the news and you will make sense of what is going on.

It is the design level where you need choice and alternatives... any production factory could make what they are tasked with making assuming their buildings and production lines are big enough.

But there are thousands of ways of designing a multirole platform, but only one of designing a normed M8 bolt for instance. Where many, complex design decisions are needed and critical it makes sense to have variety of approaches, where only technological processes are involved, not so much. There is overlapping in the designing of engines, so obvious mistakes by any competence center can be noticed within the holding, but they are not going to replicate efforts. It makes no sense.

The very idea that everything on a new plane is state of the art brand new created from scratch is amusing.... most wires and connectors and components are standardised and mass produced for every aircraft it is fitted to.

Of course, that is what I am saying...

The main rival still hasn't made their Su-35 equivalent though they are in the process so why are you talking about being too late?

Su-35 is better than anything the west has right now and MiG-35 will be a shorter ranged lighter equivalent that is also superior to 90% of the planes the west operates.

Considering they will be operating inside the worlds most powerful IADS and there are also MiG-31s and Su-57s as part of that system and soon S-350s and S-500s and all sorts of other brand new systems being added all the time I think the Russians are in the best situation that they have ever been before in their history vis a vis external threats.

Well, I guess VKS would be happy to know what they can get from the new fighter instead of how that fighter is to be protected by their other assets. BTW, Russian military thinking never goes that way, that is pure US doctrinal rot that leads to critical dependence on certain enabling platforms and technologies. Every asset needs to hold its own and be the best in its category.

Yeah, I heard that rumour....

A LOI is a fact that amply trumps your uninformed opinion

It is an obvious and clear fact... two engines, two vertical tails, main wing and horizontal tail surfaces, nose mounted radar and cockpit behind that... all perfectly conventional and similar... the only difference is that on the MiG-29 and Su-27 they use separated engines and blended wing designs to generate and enhance body generated lift to further improve performance.

Very different layouts, which happen to have wings and engines and be fighters...

Things take time and if it was easy they would already have it.

Because things are not easy you need the best people taking care of them. Look how much did it take for Sukhoi to be done with the Su-35 and how much is it taking for MiG to be done with their -35.

Ironically MiG has more experience with PESAs than any other company on the planet.... the MiG-31 has had one since the late 1970s...

Yeah, guess what? That was a Tikhomirov radar

It is a no brainer because Sukhoi has been running a funded programme to develop such technologies... when funding for the LMFS programme starts MiG could catch up and even surpass Sukhoi... if UAC has any brains it will get Sukhoi division to share information with the MiG division for the project to reduce wasted resources and money trying to reinvent something already created for the job.

1. They are indeed sharing info and probably will share the design of the light fighter, that is why they are both now in UAC Military Aircraft
2. Sukhoi got the money because they offered a proper concept for PAK-FA and they won, while MiG came up (again) with some half arsed medium plane.
3. See above for the difference of development times and program handling between Su-35 and MiG-35...

Nobody uses most of the technology from the Su-57 yet either...

Yeah the backbone of the future VKS and aerospace industry already in service and with 76 firm orders is a vaporware like some airshow item like the MiG-29OVT. Respect!

the fact is that MiG and Klimov have technology that Sukhoi clearly lacks.... which refutes your claim that Sukhoi is the be all and end all.

Hahaha bullshit... they are just placing some external actuators which is a quite crude solution. If it was something with clear advantages VKS would get it in their fighters, but they don't. Evil, envious Sukhoi is surely holding them hostage.

MiG is just doing what teh Russian government ordered all Russian design  bureaus to do... fix up your existing designs to eliminate all their flaws and make them more effective and useful and also in the background create a revolutionary new from scratch design that is a generation ahead that will replace it in service.

And they are working hard on that, it is a pity that their calender is two decades late

The new generation model has been on hold because the Russian government decided to focus on the Su-57 programme, so the equivalent MiG programme has been delayed, but that is nothing to do with MiG and everything to do with the Russian governments choices.

If that is their excuse then Russian government should fire the whole direction of the company and make sure they clean toilets from then onwards. Their must is to find ideas, business and technologies on their own initiative and remain competitive on their own, not to blame the others. As said, they had to develop the MiG-35 and it has been 15 years in a state of virtual readiness. It is embarrassing, there is no other term to describe that.

It allowed a broken near collapse third world gas station country produce what is probably the best 5th gen fighter... and now that that is ready for serial production they can then focus on development and production of a lighter model 5th gen fighter to compliment it.

Oh I see. Yeah, that plan indeed seems to make sense, but nobody has said it involves a twin engine fighter from MiG. And guess what, when it was widely understood that way for several decades, now Rostec and UAC disclose that Sukhoi is working on that. It indeed looks to me as if they wanted to actually check one proposal vs the other and see which makes more sense.

I am not making the    plane... I don't need the   numbers...

That is why you always remain the realm of pure opinions

So you are suggesting MiG are talking about a Mach 4.2 replacement for the MiG-31 without sorting out a suitable engine to allow them to achieve such speeds... are you suggesting they expect a suitable engine to just fall from the sky to make that happen?

I am just disappointed that you understood nothing about the type of engines being discussed and available for the task.

Are you suggesting they think someone else will supply them with a suitable engine or just hoping such an engine will be available at the time their new aircraft is ready for testing?

Are you kidding me? I posted here their freakin roadmap, but you still cannot make sense of it...

Getting to a point where forward mounted lift jets could be angled in forward flight to generate forward thrust could solve other fundamental problems with VSTOL fighters to make them rather more viable as combat weapons.

Yeah, that would be a beautiful fantasy world

Giving all fighter programmes immediately to Sukhoi and Saturn is not taking care of that.

I remind you they are now in the same company and integrated to a relatively high level.

They might share materials and parts of designs but no one design is going to be ideal for all three different roles.

I suggest you to check their roadmap again, the key word is "core". That means, aspects like size, cold part or afterburning section are not necessarily the same...

Sorry, my 50 trillion dollar trust fund is currently tied up paying for Putin shrines to be built in cities around the world...

A noble cause

Pretty much yes.

Ok I am sorry, that was pretty much enough to understand the whole PAK-DP issue.

Al-41s and izd 30 engines in MiG-31 upgrades?

Probably not.

No idea about MiG-31, but PAK-DP, quite probably YES. At least the core. You know, because they said it themselves...

Not in the Russian AF.

Only if you confuse long range interceptors with fighters

I doubt they would share their full plans with us... what they show will be a summary of what they can show.

That is irrelevant if you don't understand and don't agree on the part they show

The Russian Air Force don't give a shit about saving some fuel or making maintenance cheaper... they want their planes to make it home after combat damage...

We will see that

With modern weapons getting smaller and lighter and more accurate why do you think a heavy payload is critical for a light fighter?

The MiG-21 had a 2 ton weapon payload... why do you think its modern replacement needs more?

It is not about the total weight, it is about the type of weapon. The whole internal load of a PAK-FA is three tonnes, so less than 2 t would be quite ok for a light fighter (2x A2G ordnance is 1.5 t). But it needs to be able to carry big weapons and not only MRAAM.

LMFS will have two engines. and therefore enough engine power for a decent payload or good range but likely not both without inflight refuelling support which most third world countries don't have... except the US.

You seem very sure of that

LMFS is a Russian AF project... if it was a MiG project then this Sukhoi suggestion of a scaled down Su-57 with a single engine would not even get consideration.

It was always taken for granted that MiG would take care of the development of that plane. LFI or PLIB are other non-manufacturer related projects for light fighters.