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    Argentina Military: News

    Eugenio Argentina
    Eugenio Argentina


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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:18 am

    medo wrote:https://news7f.com/saab-received-an-order-for-rbs-70-ng-from-argentina/

    Swedish SAAB confirm a contract for RBS-70NG VSHORAD from Argentine to equip Argentinian army, navy and air force.

    Illustrative news, for those who think that Argentina is going to stop depending on Western weapons and buy Russian weapons
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    Post  GarryB Mon Feb 28, 2022 12:16 am

    It is early days yet.

    Now that the west is going to block most trade with Russia then Russia will finally be forced to look to the rest of the world for real trade instead of just token stuff.

    Initially most restoftheworld countries will reject better trade relations with Russia because of the consequences the west will start to threaten them with, but over time trade will increase and as you get to learn they are not the sharks you find in the west that want your products but don't want you to develop and grow into anything but a mirror image of them, then you will start to realise Russia and indeed China offer trade without the strings attached... no big companies like Coke and Pepsi coming in and buying up all your fizzy drink companies and bottle production facilities...

    Any future problems or hostility with Britain and all those western weapons will no longer be supported and might even stop working... not so with Russian weapons.

    Didn't an SA-7 bring down a Harrier in the Falklands conflict?

    Its size fuselage mounted jet nozzles making them particularly vulnerable to heat seekers...
    Eugenio Argentina
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:49 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    Didn't an SA-7 bring down a Harrier in the Falklands conflict?

    In the Falklands war, several Sa-7 missiles arrived. From Libya and Peru.
    They were used on a few occasions, but never shot down any enemy aircraft.
    Many in good condition were captured by the English after the surrender.
    In the 1980s collection "War Machine" there is a photo of an English soldier with a captured Sa-7.

    Argentina Military: News - Page 5 S-l1600

    Argentina Military: News - Page 5 Soldados+brit%C3%A1nicos+manipulan+un+lanzador+Strela-2+argentino

    Here is an extensive note on this missile in the Malvinas:

    https://malvinas25.rssing.com/chan-6101334/article146.html

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:19 am

    Yes, I have that issue and series of books... they came out in the 1980s, I also had the multi part magazine on the Falklands War specifically...

    There was mention of a Sea Harrier being shot down on a ground attack mission and speculation that it would have been something like a Strela that did it due to the engine nozzle arrangement on the SH, but I have since seen claims it was a Roland missile that brought the aircraft down.

    Can't be sure of the truth of course, would not surprise me for them to claim it was the European missile rather than the Soviet one for propaganda purposes...


    BTW your article does not start well...

    To make a short explanation, many say that the SA-7 were better than the Blowpipe, but in reality it is not, and compared with the Stingers less effective still, the summary of the generations of portable missiles would be:

    1st Generation: only engage in the nozzles of the aircraft (e.g. Redeye, the SA-7 Strela)
    2nd Generation: in addition you can shoot in front of the aircraft attackers (e.g. Stinger, Igla).
    3rd Generation: in addition guided to GO, have the devices UV led ,which increases their percentage of takedowns. (E.g. Latest version of the Stinger B, SA18,Mistral)

    Blowpipe is not good at all, it wasn't effective in Afghanistan either, and the generation list is wrong, Igla and Igla-1, which are SA-16 and SA-18 respectively are third generation, with SA-14 being second gen.

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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:50 am

    GarryB wrote:Yes, I have that issue and series of books... they came out in the 1980s, I also had the multi part magazine on the Falklands War specifically...

    There was mention of a Sea Harrier being shot down on a ground attack mission and speculation that it would have been something like a Strela that did it due to the engine nozzle arrangement on the SH, but I have since seen claims it was a Roland missile that brought the aircraft down.

    Can't be sure of the truth of course, would not surprise me for them to claim it was the European missile rather than the Soviet one for propaganda purposes...


    BTW your article does not start well...

    To make a short explanation, many say that the SA-7 were better than the Blowpipe, but in reality it is not, and compared with the Stingers less effective still, the summary of the generations of portable missiles would be:

    1st Generation: only engage in the nozzles of the aircraft (e.g. Redeye, the SA-7 Strela)
    2nd Generation: in addition you can shoot in front of the aircraft attackers (e.g. Stinger, Igla).
    3rd Generation: in addition guided to GO, have the devices UV led ,which increases their percentage of takedowns. (E.g. Latest version of the Stinger B, SA18,Mistral)

    Blowpipe is not good at all, it wasn't effective in Afghanistan either, and the generation list is wrong, Igla and Igla-1, which are SA-16 and SA-18 respectively are third generation, with SA-14 being second gen.


    The article is not mine.
    I only put it to illustrate the topic.
    If you read it, you realize that there is even talk of laziness to handle the missile, because it is in the Russian language.
    I did not stop to analyze the models that it names, but I will take it into account to reread.
    I have read quite a bit about the Malvinas and I have always known about the presence of the Soviet missiles, but I had never read that they had been shot down.
    If you have visited the military forums, you should know, that they mostly have pro-Western and anti-Russian/Soviet stances.
    Where Western is best and Russian is inferior.
    In Argentina it is not an exception.
    Let's not forget that the leaders of our armed forces, since 1955 (overthrow of Perón) were captured by liberalism and served the interests of the United States.
    During the Cold War, from the different sepoy governments, a line was lowered where everything was biased by the confrontation against communism.
    Oddly enough, that view still prevails today.
    It is enough to enter the forums and see how pro-Yankee positions are always defended.

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    Eugenio Argentina
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:58 am

    It is striking that Soviet weapons were not directly accepted during the conflict.
    What's more: during it and after. Until now, they are still begging for Western weaponry.
    Thus, the great aeronaval power that we had until the 1980s was lost.
    In Argentina we describe these attitudes as "sepoys".
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    Post  GarryB Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:16 pm

    So called western experts went on about how wonderful the Sea Harrier was, but honestly against the Soviets it would have suffered, because most Soviet air to air missiles of the period included long range IR guided missiles... ie the standard BVR AAM of the MiG-23 was the R-23 and then R-24 upgraded missiles in both SARH and IR guided versions. The same for the R-40 missiles used by the MiG-25 and the R-27s used by the later MiG-29s and Su-27s.

    Even with flares the Sea Harrier would be horribly vulnerable to IR guided missiles and as I mentioned the SA-7 was not a current MANPAD in the Soviet/Warsaw pact in the early 1980s... they had already replaced it with the SA-14 and by the mid 1980s were putting Igla and Igla-1 into service.... when they captured Stingers in Afghanistan they found they were inferior to the missiles they were already making... the main upgrade to the Igla was in the 2000s with the Igla-S which improved the seeker a little but most importantly added a proximity fuse system to the missile to make it effective against small targets like drones or missiles.

    If Argentina had MiG-23 in service instead of Skyhawks and Mirage fighters it would have been rather interesting... though the Soviets would have had to have released the R-23 or R-24 missiles for it to have a decent effect, normally export MiG-23s had AA-2 missiles or sometimes AA-8... neither of which had amazing performance, but carrying R-23 or R-24 BVR missiles, they could have fired the IR guided missile first and then a delay and then a SARH missile... the IR guided missile should get a lock at a good distance because the Harrier almost always has its engine nozzles visible from the front... while manouvering to evade the IR missile they would lose speed and need to use max engine power making them vulnerable to get hit by a follow up SARH missile.

    They could have carried two SARH and two heavy IR guided missiles at a time with a centreline fuel tank to maximise time in the air.

    There is enormous bias on the internet regarding Soviet and Russian equipment... normally the ignorance comes from ignoring their position and requirements... they needed interceptors more than they needed fighters so when the MiG-25 was first seen it was assumed to be an F-15 type aircraft, but that was their Su-27 family.

    The F-15 is a clear example of actual copying by the US... they actually decided to make a plane directly based on a Soviet plane and take the risk that better US this and better US that will result in a better aircraft, but what they ended up with was a different aircraft, a fighter instead of an interceptor.

    To be fair the range of anti ship missiles the Soviets had was extensive, but would require Argentina to buy the whole ships or subs that carried them... or very large aircraft like the Tu-16 or Tu-22M3... which would have been expensive, their Kh-35 was not ready for use in the early 1980s, and their main anti ship missiles were too big to be carried by tactical aircraft.
    Eugenio Argentina
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Mon Mar 21, 2022 3:09 pm

    The Argentine pilots were good in attack, and in air-to-air combat the English pilots had much more training.
    Supposedly the Mirages were better than the Harriers and Sea Harriers.
    The main problem was that the leadership of the Process did not want to get too close to the USSR.
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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:52 am

    No, their problem was that Britain took the latest model Sidewinders out of HATO stocks and use them when they were not supposed to... the US of course OKed that.

    The Lima and Mike model Sidewinders they used allowed them to be launched from any angle with a good chance of a hit, but of course they tended to manouver to get a tail shot to increase the kill probability.

    The Argentine pilots were incredibly brave and very skillful and got a few kills on ships using bombs which is not actually as easy as it sounds.

    They often flew in low behind the radar shadow of the islands so they could roll in and sneak attack the ships in harbour or close to shore without alerting the Sea Harriers.

    The fact that it was a small carrier with only helicopter based AEW meant it sat further off shore and away from the conflict area to keep it safer, and the low flight speed of the Harrier meant the ships it was supposed to be supporting didn't really get properly supported.

    If they had a fixed will full sized carrier they could have used Phantoms and Buccaneers, which would have been much more capable and effective in the air superiority and attack roles respectively... they probably would not have lost any ships at all.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:30 am

    GarryB wrote:If they had a fixed will full sized carrier they could have used Phantoms and Buccaneers, which would have been much more capable and effective in the air superiority and attack roles respectively... they probably would not have lost any ships at all.
    Yeah I think the whole Harrier program was a bit of a mistake. In terms of actual combat capability it was a dud. I mean it is an interesting concept but not that viable in practice. The fact it did as well as it did says much about the pilots more than the aircraft really.

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    Eugenio Argentina
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:55 am

    GarryB wrote:No, their problem was that Britain took the latest model Sidewinders out of HATO stocks and use them when they were not supposed to... the US of course OKed that.

    The Lima and Mike model Sidewinders they used allowed them to be launched from any angle with a good chance of a hit, but of course they tended to manouver to get a tail shot to increase the kill probability.

    The Argentine pilots were incredibly brave and very skillful and got a few kills on ships using bombs which is not actually as easy as it sounds.

    They often flew in low behind the radar shadow of the islands so they could roll in and sneak attack the ships in harbour or close to shore without alerting the Sea Harriers.

    The fact that it was a small carrier with only helicopter based AEW meant it sat further off shore and away from the conflict area to keep it safer, and the low flight speed of the Harrier meant the ships it was supposed to be supporting didn't really get properly supported.

    If they had a fixed will full sized carrier they could have used Phantoms and Buccaneers, which would have been much more capable and effective in the air superiority and attack roles respectively... they probably would not have lost any ships at all.

    Air-to-air combat took place without the need to use the advantage on the English Sidewinders.
    As I said, in this type of confrontation the United Kingdom had more experience than the Argentine pilots.
    You focus too much on technical issues and forget the main thing: politics.
    The Argentine Armed Forces were embedded in the National Security Doctrine, in which they were an element to control the population.
    Therefore, they had more experience in bombing than in air-to-air combat.
    They had a counterrevolutionary thought.
    That is why so many precautions regarding Soviet armament.
    With regard to the "Malvinas War", the original objective was to occupy with few troops to negotiate.
    The situation became tense until it reached the war, and many errors entered there, all stemming from the original plan that had not prioritized a large supply of the islands, nor, for example, building a runway suitable for jet planes.
    Other "mistakes" followed.
    In my opinion, the main defect was that there was no will for a war to the last consequences with the United Kingdom, which had the support of the people.
    It is enough to see that when the surrender of Puerto Argentino was known, a popular demonstration took place, which shouted: Do not surrender. which was suppressed.
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    Post  Eugenio Argentina Tue Mar 22, 2022 9:55 am

    Regarding the embarked aircraft, the British had the aircraft carrier "Invincible" and also used the container ship "Atlantic Conveyor" (which was sunk) in a similar mission, embarking helicopters and Harrier aircraft.
    Besides, then the "Illustrious" (twin of the "Invincible") would arrive.
    If these ships had been damaged or destroyed, there was still the United States, which could have provided them with some of its aircraft carriers.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:44 pm

    The Atlantic Conveyer was a container ship and was not rigged for launching aircraft... it as transporting aircraft to be deployed to land to operate from there.

    The fear of them being sunk led to them sitting further back from the islands, which reduced their effectiveness in protecting ships and ground forces.

    If they still had the older fixed wing carriers in service with Phantoms even if they did sit further back it had proper AWACS platforms to give a much better air picture and would have eliminated the radar shadow the islands created that some Argentine pilots used for their attacks... the shadow is created by the ships radar being blocked by the islands so enemy aircraft flying at low levels behind the island can't be detected by ship radar.

    They of course could be detected by AWACS platforms carried by the older bigger carriers.

    Lack of air to air training for the Argentine pilots was certainly an issue, but as I said, if they had MiG-23s with BVR missiles the Harriers would have been at a very serious disadvantage.

    The MiGs could have used their speed and launched missiles from standoff ranges and never gotten within 10km of the Harriers... giving the MiGs a chance of a hit and the Harriers no chance at all to get a hit.

    MiG-23s can also operate from fairly rough grass strips too so they could have operated from the island...

    But it was not to be.

    BTW the US was being very careful not to get involved... it was already helping Britain because it had signed agreements with central and south american countries that in return for doing what they say that the US would protect them from European colonial powers... which they clearly didn't.

    There would be no carriers lent to Britain... losing a carrier might have stopped the conflict.

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