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    Russian Naval Spetsnaz

    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Jul 17, 2021 1:31 pm

    From Marines to Frog People

    Counter-sabotage forces are deployed at all Russian naval bases. The combat swimmers are part of all four fleets and the Caspian military flotilla. In the Syrian Arab Republic, for example, the PDSS is responsible for the underwater and coastal protection of the logistics center in Tartous. But few people know what the underwater special forces are armed with today, what are its capabilities and tasks.

    Demand for frogmen

    Despite the presence of underwater special forces, in 2020 alone, the Marine Corps Training Center, structurally part of the Joint Training Center of the Russian Navy and located in St. Petersburg, trained about 600 marines to perform tasks as part of anti-terror groups. In fact, this can be qualified as attracting the Marines to specific tasks that were previously solved only by "frog people" - combat swimmers.

    The need for such groups on board ships and vessels of the Russian Navy, performing combat missions in the distant sea and ocean zone, did not arise by chance. Today, terrorist methods are being incorporated into the basis of their defense concepts by the states that are members of the NATO bloc.

    Following the definitions of the defense departments of the countries of the North Atlantic Alliance, the concept of "asymmetric warfare" implies fighting between adversaries, in whose military forces there is a significant imbalance. It is these strategies and tactics that have been adopted by the Finnish special forces, which are being trained in Utti, as well as by the special operations forces of Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Poland.
    Sharp "Tachyon"

    One cannot do without the latest examples of anti-sabotage technology when solving such complex problems. Equipping combat swimmers with boats of the "Grachonok" and "Raptor" type, capable of speeds up to 80 kilometers per hour and operating in storms, is a serious help for the quick delivery of special forces.

    Another innovation is the flying drones of the Tachyon project, which detect enemy combat swimmers at a depth of several meters, being above the sea surface. "It is almost impossible to find a special container while moving and in the process of work. And the crew of the combat swimmers serving the system can impersonate dock handlers - the smart guys are selected "

    Recently, another novelty has entered service with the Russian Navy - the DIABAS hydroacoustic anti-sabotage system. The complex consists of hydrophones (underwater microphones) and a standard container for their storage.

    The container is disguised as a regular cargo container, but it also has workplaces for operators monitoring the operational situation. Highly sensitive underwater microphones are installed at the bottom and on the quays. They find combat swimmers and underwater drones by recognizing them by sound.

    The system is completely mobile. The container is loaded onto a truck and transported to the designated area. It is almost impossible to detect it while moving and in the process of work. And the crew of the combat swimmers serving the system can impersonate dock handlers - the smart guys are selected.

    Acting for a combat swimmer is just one of the professional skills of a special forces soldier, where surprise, cunning and ingenuity play a big role.

    Our divers are tasked with protecting ships from both sea and land. Combat swimmers are formed from contract servicemen. All sailors and officers pass the most careful selection, tests for endurance, orientation on the ground, the ability to overcome psychological stress.

    So impeccable health is not the only ticket to this elite division. The advanced training course includes diving, parachute, topographic, assault, engineering and mountain training. It is combined with the simulation of force majeure situations. Such, for example, as a faulty rebreather at depth or spending the night in a cemetery during a march.

    The main task of combat swimmers is to find their “counterparts”: to catch enemy underwater saboteurs who threaten warships, coastal installations of our naval bases, including remote ones, as well as military garrisons.

    Sometimes combat swimmers also perform specific tasks to prevent enemy scouts from penetrating sunken submarines in order to reveal defensive secrets.

    Duel underwater

    The underwater special forces are armed with special small arms automatic weapons, which are intended for use not only on land, but also under water.

    These are two-medium APS submachine guns and SPP-1 pistols. Back in the USSR, a special cartridge with a needle-type bullet was developed for the APS assault rifle, effectively striking targets at depth. However, on land, the APS is not as effective. It will soon be replaced by a new ADS with a bullpup layout (when the trigger is in front of the clip). It surpasses the APS in accuracy of fire both in the air and under water. On land, he shoots special cartridges of 5.45x39 mm caliber - you just need to change the magazine.

    The swimmers also have a special anti-sabotage grenade launcher DP-61 "Duel", which also allows you to destroy saboteurs under water.

    Complex training simulators for training submarine special forces operate at the fleet bases. They simulate pressure at depth, as well as deep currents and even coastal mountain slopes. Divers undergo mountain and anti-piracy training. However, the training of operational-tactical tasks on the simulator is necessarily combined with practice at training grounds and in the water area of ​​ports.

    An important component of training is to acquire skills in sabotage work against enemy ships. A small group in numerical strength can cause significant damage to the enemy, in the shortest possible time, literally and figuratively undermining his political, economic and military potential.

    Get it everywhere

    The Russian military department, analyzing NATO's tactics, has developed a special training program to train marines for long-term service as part of anti-terrorist groups on ships performing the task of a naval presence in various regions of the World Ocean. Its implementation took time.

    The program is exclusive and includes the study of the structure, technical means and weapons of Russian warships of all ranks and classes by the marines: they must know the structure of the ship that is being protected from sabotage, the location of combat and information posts, vulnerabilities, routes of movement along the hull from deck to hold and from bow to stern.

    Particular attention is paid to the study of students of International Maritime Law on the development of practical actions on ships in the conduct of all types of protection and defense. At the forefront are the tactics of actions in the composition of inspection teams and the development of methods of disembarkation on ships when solving anti-piracy problems.

    Shooting from standard small arms at surface targets for the Marines is a familiar job. But in the conditions of a limited space of internal premises (compartments, corridors, vestibules) of ships and vessels, preparation for firing requires different skills. Any "skerry" can become a shelter for a terrorist.

    The program was developed in accordance with the instructions of the commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov. The training process for the Marines is based on the experience gained in the course of actions against terrorists in Syria.

    The level of training passed at the Joint Training Center of the Russian Navy allowed marines from all naval fleets to acquire practical knowledge that is indispensable for countering terrorists and saboteurs.

    For several years now, Marines in anti-terror groups have already been on board every warship or support vessel of the Russian Navy, performing tasks at a distance from their permanent bases.

    https://vpk--news-ru.translate.goog/articles/62903?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=ajax,elem

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    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:19 am

    Size 480–800 OMRP; 650–780 PDSS
    -------------------------------
    Naval Special Reconnaissance (OMRP):
    The first Naval Special Reconnaissance unit, the 42nd OMRP is composed of reconnaissance divers that fall under operational subordination to the Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU). There are now four OMRPs in Russia, one for each fleet: Northern Fleet, Baltic Fleet, Black Sea Fleet, Pacific Ocean Fleet, each consisting of 120–200 personnel.
    Naval Special Reconnaissance (OMRP)
    42nd Marine Reconnaissance point (Pacific Fleet)
    388th Marine Reconnaissance point (Black Sea Fleet) - reorganized from the former 431st MRP
    420th Marine Reconnaissance point (Northern Fleet)
    561st Marine Reconnaissance point (Baltic Fleet)
    ------------------------------------
    Counteraction Underwater Diversionary Forces and Facilities (PDSS)
    PDSS are special purpose (spetsnaz) unit of the Russian Navy, trained to conduct land and sea operations behind enemy lines, and to conduct underwater combat, mining and clearance diving. These units include combat swimmers tasked to protect ships and other fleet assets from enemy underwater special forces. The precise composition, activities and location of the unit are strictly classified.
    Every PDSS unit has approximately 50–60 combat swimmers.
    101st PDSS Detachment - based in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
    102nd PDSS Detachment - based in Sevastopol
    136th PDSS Detachment - based in Novorossiysk
    137th PDSS Detachment - based in Makhachkala
    140th PDSS Detachment - based in Vidyayevo
    152nd PDSS Detachment - based in Polyarny, Murmansk Oblast
    153rd PDSS Detachment - based in Ostrovnoy, Murmansk Oblast
    159th PDSS Detachment - based in Razboynik
    160th PDSS Detachment - based in Murmansk
    269th PDSS Detachment - based in Gadzhiyevo
    311th PDSS Detachment - based in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky
    313rd PDSS Detachment - based in Baltiysk
    473rd PDSS Detachment - based in Kronstadt

    Documentary about Russian Combat Divers in Russian (2016):


    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:38 am

    George, where did you come up with this?

    "Size 480–800 OMRP; 650–780 PDSS"

    Are these overall totals or unit sizes?
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:57 am

    franco wrote:George, where did you come up with this?

    "Size 480–800 OMRP; 650–780 PDSS"

    Are these overall totals or unit sizes?

    i think overall

    https://www.facebook.com/madeinrussianfederation/posts/2011252802361732?__cft__[0]=AZUcIblVjW16e2pAmGmwnt8Wws_eBzh59qEKH4WCNK_U64lqlG4mzen85RjGzXYo79QmRCGpBWKKUPHwWuVlf68FGXLCbdqX_6yBn5equIDEwYOBUck6rGxVSgCwzQeeF8YI3R7dWOE8K341uaIJGR02&__tn__=%2CO%2CP-R
    franco
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    Post  franco Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:12 am

    From what I have gathered over time the OMRP's include 2 companies of spetsnaz and 1 company of combat divers.

    The PDSS size varies depending upon how big a naval base they are guarding and includes combat divers for underwater, a surface craft detachment including 21980, 03160 and high speed zodiac type craft plus a security unit for guard, patrol and reaction forces. A naval base may have 1-2 separate docks to 5-6 docks.

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    Russian_Patriot_
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    Post  Russian_Patriot_ Fri Aug 27, 2021 7:43 am

    Rostec has created a parachute system for landing combat swimmers. 

    Technodinamika Holding of Rostec State Corporation is testing a new parachute system for landing divers in full gear on the water surface. The system allows the fighter to quickly and safely free himself from the parachute and start performing a combat mission underwater.

    The parachute system designed for performing jumps with subsequent immersion under water was developed by specialists of the Ivanovo parachute plant "Polet" of the Technodinamika holding. The novelty can be used at an altitude of up to 8 thousand meters at the speed of the aircraft from 140 to 350 km/h. Wing-type parachute with an area of 37.2 m2 provides a load capacity of up to 225 kg. The system allows you to place special diving equipment in its composition and land a diver in full gear. In addition, a universal cargo harness with a weight of up to 130 kg is provided.

    "An important feature of our development is that its suspension system allows a paratrooper in special equipment to quickly and safely free himself from the parachute, dive under water and start performing a combat mission. The design of the parachute system provides for the possibility of attaching cargo strapping, which allows delivering dimensional equipment to the destination, including an individual diving tow truck. Currently, the new product is undergoing the final stage of research tests" – Igor Nasenkov, General Director of Technodinamika Holding, said.

    Source: 

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:14 am

    Was hoping that they would get ADS rifles, but the AK12 is clearly better on land...
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    Post  Mir Tue Nov 16, 2021 12:20 pm

    As a replacement for the APS the ADS would only be of use to combat divers in Spetsnaz units.

    Wouldn't mind one myself! Smile
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 17, 2021 2:14 am

    Except it is not just a replacement for the APS, it is also a replacement for the AK-74 because it can fire standard rifle ammo to normal distances in the air as well as underwater rounds under water.

    I actually think it would also be better for armoured units and helicopter troops.

    They wouldn't need the underwater capacity to fire, but the short compact design with a full length barrel would be handy for troops operating in vehicles and helicopters.

    I would love one myself, but with our current laws... soon I wont even be allowed a sharpened stick.

    I wonder if the AK-12 could fire the 5.45 x 39mm underwater ammo the ADS fires... I presume it should be able to... which means a special underwater assault rifle might become redundant...

    They had underwater 9mm ammo to so the Gsh-18 could replace the SPP-1 and the Makarov they used to carry, though now it would probably be a Udav or Lebedev pistol I guess.

    With the built in 40mm grenade launcher the ADS with the GSh-18 meant two weapons replaced five... APS, SPP-1, for in water or into water fire and AK-74, Makarov, and GP-25 for above water use.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:22 am

    I am well aware of the ADS but the route and other suggestions you are putting forward is highly unlikely. It is clearly a specialist weapon and I think it will remain so. But who knows maybe you're onto something?

    The reason why they developed the ADS was to eliminate the APS's major disadvantage - the dart cartridge was not effective on land so they needed another solution. They found it in the ADS.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:05 am

    Exactly... the purpose of the ADS was to allow the APS and AK-74 be replaced by one rifle that could be used in water more effectively than the APS and on land more effectively than the AK-74.

    Its long barrel but compact nature seems to offer the best of both worlds and there was talk of it replacing the AK-74 in service for more than just the divers.

    Soldiers on guard duty near water would benefit from using the underwater rounds too, and if the ADS with standard 5.45 x 39mm rounds is as accurate as the AK12 then it would be an interesting option for not just navy personnel but also for soldiers who need a more compact weapon for use operating from small boats or armoured vehicles or helicopter...

    It just really depends on how accurate the ADS is with standard 5.45 x 39mm rounds and if there are any problems.

    It has forward shell case ejection level with the carry handle so you can fire it left and right handed without modification, and its barrel should be rather long because of its bullpup layout.

    The real question is is the new ammo that fits in standard 5.45 x 39mm magazines and can be fired like conventional ammo able to be fired safely in an AK12 underwater, or indeed the AK-74.

    I am guessing not because otherwise instead of the ADS they could have just used the AK-74 with both types of rounds for air and underwater use... but what about the AK 12?
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:20 pm

    and there was talk of (the ADS) replacing the AK-74 in service for more than just the divers.
    Talk is cheap - or do you have any citation?

    The ADS is a direct development from the Soviet A-91M bullpup assault rifle that was fielded back in the early 90's. I actually have some bad quality footage somewhere of the rifle been tested by regular troops but it was not adopted. The rifle was only adopted by some special forces and the police. Since then various other rifles were tested and in the end the AK-12 was finally adopted as the main service rifle. In a more recent development the AM-17 rifle is set to replace the AKS74U rifle for drivers/pilots and other crew. It seems the ADS itself was adopted back in 2016 for combat divers and is in service since 2019. The ADS and even the A-91M are specialist weapons and I doubt the ADS will be adopted any wider than currently envisaged despite the apparent rumours you mention.

    The ADS is primarily an underwater weapon and it will remain so. Only those that operate underwater will most likely be the ones ever issued with the ADS. A helicopter pilot or any of the other soldiers you mentioned, may have a better chance being issued an A-91M (which is also highly unlikely anyway) than an ADS.

    The A-91M >> (available in different calibers)
    Russian Naval Spetsnaz - Page 3 Riflea10
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    Post  GarryB Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:14 am

    Talk is cheap - or do you have any citation?

    Talk is very cheap, but it was mentioned in the article that said the ADS was going into production for the Navy. A person from the company producing the weapon speculated that it would be issued to more than just divers because of its compact size.

    The ADS is a direct development from the Soviet A-91M bullpup assault rifle that was fielded back in the early 90's. I actually have some bad quality footage somewhere of the rifle been tested by regular troops but it was not adopted. The rifle was only adopted by some special forces and the police. Since then various other rifles were tested and in the end the AK-12 was finally adopted as the main service rifle.

    At the time it was a new experimental rifle not in production being tested... it would have to be quite a lot better than the AK alternative which was already in use and in production to be considered.

    In comparison the ADS is being adopted by the Navy for divers but the article mentioned the VDV were also looking at it because they have troops that might find the ability to fire into, out of and in water useful as well as being a normal above air assault rifle.

    If the ADS is being produced for divers but they are looking for a weapon to replace the standard Ak-74 rifles then that creates a real opportunity for the ADS to actually replace both, but obviously it come down to any problems or advantages of the rifle and how it compares with the AK12.

    In a more recent development the AM-17 rifle is set to replace the AKS74U rifle for drivers/pilots and other crew. It seems the ADS itself was adopted back in 2016 for combat divers and is in service since 2019. The ADS and even the A-91M are specialist weapons and I doubt the ADS will be adopted any wider than currently envisaged despite the apparent rumours you mention.

    The thing is that we are talking about different things... crew weapons are backup self defence weapons, which the AKS-74U was used widely for and was popular and useful. The AKS-74U was also used by special forces and troops operating crew served weapons for which it was less popular because of its reduced range and accuracy performance, and it is for these roles that a bullpup design is useful because it is certainly compact for use by special force or troops in armoured vehicles or operating from helicopters or ships, but its full length barrels makes them more effective at greater ranges.

    The ADS is primarily an underwater weapon and it will remain so.

    Well you said yourself the ADS is based on a rifle that is not an underwater weapon... it has been adapted for underwater use, but it is no APS that can only fire underwater ammo and therefore is only effective underwater. It is a fully dual medium weapon... as its designation implies.

    A helicopter pilot or any of the other soldiers you mentioned, may have a better chance being issued an A-91M (which is also highly unlikely anyway) than an ADS.

    No because the A-91M is not in serial production AFAIK, while the ADS is.


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:03 am

    @GaryB

    I would like to see the article you refer to. Anyway lets see what the future brings but I have my doubts that the ADS will see any wider distribution than for combat divers and those specialists that operate underwater.

    From what I've seen it is supposed to replace the APS and AK-74M in special Navy units only.

    Not trying to be pedantic about it but there is a huge difference between an AKS-74 and an AKS-74U.
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    Post  marcellogo Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:52 pm

    I will post a video about a joint boarding exercitation between italian and croatian navies.
    You can clearly see how in certain type of operations the bullpup rifle allow you a much easier carrying in those situationa (combat medics is another) in which you would need the use of both hands.



    See how italian Marò have to keep their own conventional rifle in their hands while croatians just left it danling from their shounders.
    In case of need they can handle it as it was an handgun in its own holster.

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    Post  Mir Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:03 pm

    Absolutely! However the discussion is not so much about the bullpub design - it's rather more about the possibility of the ADS underwater rifle being issued to soldiers, other than combat divers and special forces that operates underwater, as is the case right now.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:42 am

    I would like to see the article you refer to. Anyway lets see what the future brings but I have my doubts that the ADS will see any wider distribution than for combat divers and those specialists that operate underwater.

    It was just a news report on TASS or something that announced that it had passed its tests and was being produced for the Navy and also for the VDV... it did not specify who was actually getting it, but it did mention that the makers hoped it might be more widely adopted... but of course back then... 2016 or so... there was no AK12 in competition...

    Not trying to be pedantic about it but there is a huge difference between an AKS-74 and an AKS-74U.

    I was talking about the short barrelled AKS-74U... otherwise it would not make much sense... because the AKS-74 does not have problems with accuracy beyond 200m or so.

    The question of whether the ADS could replace the AK-74 is already answered... if divers are using it then it is replacing the AK-74 for the above air components of their missions.

    But then to operate safely underwater it might be that it is heavier than it needs to be, or more expensive... otherwise an underwater version of the AK-12 would make more sense.

    The forward ejection of shell cases might be extended so you can fire it from inside a helicopter or ground vehicle and have empty shell cases ejected out the port you are firing through.

    The short compact design is handy and with the grenade launcher fitted it is balanced around the pistol grip with a full 30 round magazine fitted which means you could hold it and point it like a pistol.
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    Post  Mir Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:42 am

    It is likely to be quite expensive to manufacture and it is more that a kilo heavier than the Ak-12.

    You will also have to switch between "water" and "air" mode - depending on whether you want to use it underwater or on land. Probably not much of an issue but it does make it more complicated to use for the average Joe.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:43 am

    Which is probably a reason why they didn't think of just using the AK-12 with the new ammo to replace the AK-74 and APS.

    The extra kg wont matter in the water and might even aide stability when firing... I have not fired any bullpup designs, most sound like they are not front heavy and balanced on their pistol grip... which might make them more pointable like the lightweight double barrel shotguns used for skeet shooting... pointable for shooting fast crossing targets and switching between targets.

    First learning about the APS and SPP-1 in the 1990s was a bit of a revelation for me... so clever... and then they came out with a hybrid rifle that could fire the old knitting needle type rounds and standard AK magazines... and then the ADS with standard mags and different types of ammo for the different mediums.

    Would love to get to shoot one of them even just in air.

    A kilo heavier than the AK and it would still be lighter than my old SLR.
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    Post  Mir Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:05 pm

    I'm not sure if it's loaded or unloaded weight but at 4.6 kg the ADS is very close to the SLR's weight, which is 4.3 unloaded.

    We had the R1 rifle (a direct copy of the FN FAL) which is very similar to the SLR but it could fire at full auto like the FAL. Probably one of the best service rifles in terms of quality and accuracy, but the full auto option was not really viable. On the other hand it is a great DMR!
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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 20, 2021 4:04 am

    The FN FAL is a fantastic rifle and in terms of design much better than the M16/AR-15.

    Because the join for the upper and lower parts of the AR-15 means the mag well is part of the lower it limits the types of ammo you can use to rounds about the size of the 5.56 x 45mm for the AR-15 and 7.62x51mm for the AR-10.

    With the SLR the mag well is part of the upper so you could just use the rear trigger mechanism and pistol grip and attach any front upper that included the rifle barrel and bolt and bolt carrier and mag well... if you wanted an assault rifle calibre there was enough room for the complete mechanism in the upper so the recoil spring in the stock would be extra for an ultra low long recoil pulse, but you could have 12 gauge or any of the new calibres and even extra wide quad stack magazines.... You could even make it belt fed... look at what the Soviets did with the DP-27/28... by the end of the ward they replaced the top pan magazine with a belt feed mechanism...

    There was enormous scope for adapting the SLR to everything from a .22lr which could have been tiny and compact, through shotgun calibres and rifle calibres too...

    And it fired so smoothly, that rounded stock gave a light push for what is a very powerful round... held beautifully on target and didn't kick up much at all.

    If their empty weights were that close I would give the ADS the advantage though because its 30 rounds of 5.45mm would be lighter than 20 rounds of 7.62x51mm.

    I might shift some of this discussion to a more suitable thread as it really is not much about the AK12 anymore...
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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:41 am

    BTW top of page two of this thread:

    It will replace APS underwater weapons and, possibly, some AK-74M general issue assault rifles in service with Russian special forces units.

    It has also been evaluated by the VDV AFAIK.

    Here is a more modern looking version of the rifle:

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    Post  George1 Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:04 pm

    Underwater shooting of combat swimmers of the Caspian flotilla

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    George1
    George1


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    Post  George1 Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:06 pm

    Russian Naval Spetsnaz - Page 3 Snapsh10

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