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Log inNow it can be equiped with chinese engines and I don't really see why china would block the sell.
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Turkish Air Force:
Isos- Posts : 11296
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Join date : 2015-11-06
JohninMK
JohninMK- Posts : 14643
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Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
Isos wrote:JohninMK wrote:syrseal
@syrseal44
·
22h
The Turkish Ministry of Defense sent a request to the US for the purchase of 40 F-16C Block 70 fighters. So not SU35
That's only 40 jets. They have 220 f-16 that will get old very soon and will need replacement. So they may want to diversify their fighters because the last 10 years showed they can't trust the US at 100% on any issue.
There is a view that this is the short term fixit. In the medium/long term there will be joint production of the Su-75 Checkmate.
Rob Lee
@RALee85
·
10h
Reuters reports that Turkey has made a request to purchase 40 F-16 fighters and modernize another 80. There has been a question how Turkey would replace the F-35 fighters it lost due to the S-400 deal. 178/
https://reuters.com/world/middle-e
Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
I doubt. Turkey has its own fighter project and like we saw for aur defence systems or navy ships they go to the end with their own projects even if it is not on pair with products sthey could buy abroad.
Maybe they will invest in an engine like Pakistan did for the rd-93 engine changed to fit in the jf-17.
I doubt they will buy any jet from Russia.
India, which is one of their closest client with Algeria, bought almost 300 MKI yet they were not given co-production or a production line for themselves, only an assembly line. The plane came in kits to assembled so the plane was produced totally in Russia.
Turkey will never have access to russia's 5th generation fighter's tech production.
Maybe they will invest in an engine like Pakistan did for the rd-93 engine changed to fit in the jf-17.
I doubt they will buy any jet from Russia.
India, which is one of their closest client with Algeria, bought almost 300 MKI yet they were not given co-production or a production line for themselves, only an assembly line. The plane came in kits to assembled so the plane was produced totally in Russia.
Turkey will never have access to russia's 5th generation fighter's tech production.
medo- Posts : 4342
Points : 4422
Join date : 2010-10-24
Location : Slovenia
Isos wrote:Now it can be equiped with chinese engines and I don't really see why china would block the sell.
Turkey support Uigur terrorists and they want to create caos in Central Asia and in China. It's no go for China.
Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
medo wrote:Isos wrote:Now it can be equiped with chinese engines and I don't really see why china would block the sell.
Turkey support Uigur terrorists and they want to create caos in Central Asia and in China. It's no go for China.
Yes and no. Turkey support to Uigur isn't that really big. Erdogan already signed a treaty of extradition for chinese Uigurs leaving in Turkey and being wanted by chinese police.
Selling a jf-17 to a NATO country will create even more chaos in NATO which is an objectif for China, like Russia with S-400.
Pakistan would also push for those jf-17 in Turkey to sell it and get some money but also tighten its military relation with turks.
So it's very likely they propose it to Turkey.
Moreover Greece is getting Rafales which have been very well tested against the f-16 over the years and greece can train against its own f-16. Tukish f-16 have no secrets for greek rafales.
Jf-17 at least would come with a variety of jammers, cruise missiles and chinese pl-15/21.
Turkey needs to buy a new fighter very quick to counter the huge advantage the Rafales gives to Greece.
JohninMK- Posts : 14643
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Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
Isos wrote:
Turkey needs to buy a new fighter very quick to counter the huge advantage the Rafales gives to Greece.
Or, think like a Russian and buy more SAMs of all types.
Re the F-16 upgrade purchase and upgrade plans going through the US system.
What if, following the F-35/S400 debacle, Congress say "No"?
What if the Turks are expecting that answer and the whole thing is a political move to give them cover when they do what they actually want to do and to buy Russian or even Chinese (less likely in my view)?
So, short term more S-400 systems and Su-35, with longer term Checkmates?
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Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
No if US doesn't give the f-16 they will loose Turkey for ever. That's clearly not want they want.
F-16 will be sold but Turkey wants a new fighter too to diversify its inventory.
And they won't choose russian ones because beibg depebdabt on Russia rhat much isn't what they want too. They are not friendly states.
S-400 was to protect Erdogan palace and they kinda had to buy something after the su-24 shotdown because Russia was going to sanction them badly and also arm kurds to the teeth. The igla used on that video against a turkish Cobra attack chopper was clearly a move from Russia just after the su-24 downing.
F-16 will be sold but Turkey wants a new fighter too to diversify its inventory.
And they won't choose russian ones because beibg depebdabt on Russia rhat much isn't what they want too. They are not friendly states.
S-400 was to protect Erdogan palace and they kinda had to buy something after the su-24 shotdown because Russia was going to sanction them badly and also arm kurds to the teeth. The igla used on that video against a turkish Cobra attack chopper was clearly a move from Russia just after the su-24 downing.
GarryB- Posts : 38918
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I don't agree that somehow Turkey can't buy from Russia but will buy from China... they are already buying from Russia.
And if the Checkmate can be made as cheap as they suggest and its operating costs are that low then I rather suspect there will be a lot of interest from some very interesting places.
Turkey was making the wings for the F-35... perhaps they might negotiate a deal where they make the wings or other bits for HATO members wanting an alternative to the F-35... if the EU keeps pushing Hungary then it might be an option for them.... the EU is also pushing Poland but I can't see them ever buying Russian stuff just out of spite.
The people saying countries might buy a few token Checkmates are I think... ignoring the facts... the purpose of the Checkmate is a 5th gen stealth fighter for the price you would pay to buy a new build MiG-21 and the operational costs are the same too which is critical because even allowing for the existence of the Gripen such a thing does not exist because a Gripen will cost several times more to buy... and isn't a 5th gen fighter with internal weapon bays.
I think a lot of countries with current 5th gen fighter programmes are going to look at the checkmate programme and either tear up their own designs, or demand a start from scratch to follow the same pattern in the hope they might get the same economic benefits at the end.
It would be like trying to design something and then seeing someone else has come up with something better in every regard... you can try to make a cheap copy you can sell to people who can't afford that expensive perfect model, but in this case the better design is cheaper too.
And if the Checkmate can be made as cheap as they suggest and its operating costs are that low then I rather suspect there will be a lot of interest from some very interesting places.
Turkey was making the wings for the F-35... perhaps they might negotiate a deal where they make the wings or other bits for HATO members wanting an alternative to the F-35... if the EU keeps pushing Hungary then it might be an option for them.... the EU is also pushing Poland but I can't see them ever buying Russian stuff just out of spite.
The people saying countries might buy a few token Checkmates are I think... ignoring the facts... the purpose of the Checkmate is a 5th gen stealth fighter for the price you would pay to buy a new build MiG-21 and the operational costs are the same too which is critical because even allowing for the existence of the Gripen such a thing does not exist because a Gripen will cost several times more to buy... and isn't a 5th gen fighter with internal weapon bays.
I think a lot of countries with current 5th gen fighter programmes are going to look at the checkmate programme and either tear up their own designs, or demand a start from scratch to follow the same pattern in the hope they might get the same economic benefits at the end.
It would be like trying to design something and then seeing someone else has come up with something better in every regard... you can try to make a cheap copy you can sell to people who can't afford that expensive perfect model, but in this case the better design is cheaper too.
ALAMO- Posts : 6653
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Join date : 2014-11-25
Yup, me neither.
And what is more: seems that we have at least two customers, heavily interested in VTOL/STOL airplane, very soon.
Anatolia is expected next year.
New Russian LHDs are expected to follow.
No idea if Checkmate was designed with that in mind, but hardly believe that Russkies don't work on that at the moment.
And what is more: seems that we have at least two customers, heavily interested in VTOL/STOL airplane, very soon.
Anatolia is expected next year.
New Russian LHDs are expected to follow.
No idea if Checkmate was designed with that in mind, but hardly believe that Russkies don't work on that at the moment.
JohninMK- Posts : 14643
Points : 14778
Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
GarryB wrote:
Turkey was making the wings for the F-35... perhaps they might negotiate a deal where they make the wings or other bits for HATO members wanting an alternative to the F-35... if the EU keeps pushing Hungary then it might be an option for them.... the EU is also pushing Poland but I can't see them ever buying Russian stuff just out of spite.
The people saying countries might buy a few token Checkmates are I think... ignoring the facts... the purpose of the Checkmate is a 5th gen stealth fighter for the price you would pay to buy a new build MiG-21 and the operational costs are the same too which is critical because even allowing for the existence of the Gripen such a thing does not exist because a Gripen will cost several times more to buy... and isn't a 5th gen fighter with internal weapon bays.
I think a lot of countries with current 5th gen fighter programmes are going to look at the checkmate programme and either tear up their own designs, or demand a start from scratch to follow the same pattern in the hope they might get the same economic benefits at the end.
It would be like trying to design something and then seeing someone else has come up with something better in every regard... you can try to make a cheap copy you can sell to people who can't afford that expensive perfect model, but in this case the better design is cheaper too.
Not F-35 wings Garry, it was the fuselage centre section Turkey were making as well as Europes 3rd line F-135 engine maintenance. They are certainly showing with their drones that they can make aircraft. Russia has an aircraft building capacity problem. Why not licence Turkey to build them with Russian electronics and engine and maintain engines?
An important market will be those countries that need SAMs and fighters but don't want the F-35. This means the US can't hold them to ransom.
A package like that would be of critical importance to the Turkish economy and Erdogan is facing an election in 2023. Add too it an agreement in Syria that gets the Syrian 3+M refugees home and a deal across the Caucuses might be possible.
GarryB- Posts : 38918
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Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Russia has an aircraft building capacity problem.
Russia has an engine problem which is in the middle of being solved.
AFAIK they have no aircraft building capacity problems, but it is always an issue to scale production capacity with need... there would be no need for them to build thousands of Su-57s, but if, during their flight testing and operational use of the 76 odd they are going to build they realise it is the best and cheapest plane ever and far better than the 35 and upgraded 30s then of course they can increase production potential and start mass producing them... but in absence of that concrete certainty there is no point having the capacity to make huge numbers of fighter aircraft of any type.
In the area of transport planes they could probably do with more production capacity, but as I said... most of the programmes about to come on line are waiting for engines anyway... no point mass producing those without engines either...
A package like that would be of critical importance to the Turkish economy and Erdogan is facing an election in 2023. Add too it an agreement in Syria that gets the Syrian 3+M refugees home and a deal across the Caucuses might be possible.
Before this current conflict there was no bad relations between Turkey and Syria and Assad, and both have a Kurd problem... it was mainly the US that dragged Turkey into this conflict supporting terrorists... I am sure eventually Russia can talk to Turkey and organise something everyone except the terrorists can be happy with.
Turkey has enormous potential in terms of military equipment but like many countries around the world they often relied on foreign supplied parts for some things... which of course means if you piss off the wrong country like the US you will quickly find things you made you suddenly can't make because you can't get the engines or electronic components or cameras or other bits and pieces needed to make it work.
Russia has been though that but as a result they started filling in the gaps themselves... the Ukraine used to make a lot of engines for tanks and ships and helicopters... or at least critical parts for such systems and only now are they able to make everything themselves.
They have given contracts for floating docks to Turkey and I am sure there are likely a few other projects they could work together with Turkey on that would benefit both countries.
lyle6- Posts : 2176
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Join date : 2020-09-14
Location : Philippines
- Post n°62
Turkey may ask US to reuse money paid for F-35s to buy F-16s
lyle6 Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:16 am
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/us-turkey-may-ask-reuse-f-35-money-buy-f-16sTurkey could ask the United States to reuse the money Ankara has already paid for the F-35 fighter jets programme to purchase and modernise F-16 jets, a senior Turkish official told a local newspaper.
Turkey has paid $1.4bn for the development and production of fifth generation fighter jet F-35 over the years. However, Ankara was ejected from the consortium in 2019 following its purchase of the Russian-made defence system S-400s, with Washington alleging that it could steal sensitive technology.
“We could evaluate the alternative to enlarge our F-16 fleet and modernise our F-16s with the money we have already paid for [F-35s],” Ibrahim Kalin, a chief policy adviser and Turkish presidential spokesperson told Milliyet daily on Wednesday.
Kalin said it was too early to tell whether this would be the solution since the negotiations had not yet taken place on the issue.
Turkey sent a letter of request on 40 F-16s and 80 modernisation kits to Washington last month, which is believed to have a $6bn price tag. The move surprised many since there is a significant amount of ongoing animosity in the US Congress towards Ankara for its regional policies, and Turkey is currently subject to US CAATSA sanctions following its S-400 purchase.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan last month said he hoped to talk about the F-35 dossier with his US counterpart Joe Biden at the G20 meeting in Rome later in October.
“We made a $1.4bn payment, what will become of that?” Erdogan said. “We did not - and do not - earn this money easily. Either they will give us our planes or they will give us the money.”
Once Ankara was excluded from that programme, it had to move to update its rapidly ageing F-16 fleet. It has also launched several of its own projects, like the TF-X fighter aircraft currently being developed by Turkish Aerospace Industries and the British arms company BAE Systems, but it will take some time for these to get to a place where they can be serially produced.
One Turkish official told MEE that Turkey’s ageing F-16s fleet, if not restored, could put not only the security of Ankara’s but also Nato’s southern flank at risk.
Ouch. I know the Turks have some particular tendencies , but this is too much. You really have to enjoy it to be subjected to this much ***-fuckery.
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JohninMK- Posts : 14643
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Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
Looks like the US said to Turkey that it wasn't getting its F-35 money back as it was their fault buying the S-400s but they can have some goods instead, how about F-16s. Clearly someone in power in the US on product sales commission 
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
2h
Erdogan says Washington offered Turkey to purchase F-16s in return of already paid $1.4 billion F-35s
Ragıp Soylu
@ragipsoylu
·
2h
Erdogan says Washington offered Turkey to purchase F-16s in return of already paid $1.4 billion F-35s
GarryB and Hannibal Barca like this post
GarryB- Posts : 38918
Points : 39414
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
What total bastards those Americans are... perhaps Turkey should reconsider being part of HATO because it just puts them inside a group hostile to Russia for no very good reason other than the US wants it that way... if they dropped out of HATO and sold their F-16s to Pakistan and Venezuela and China, then they could start from scratch and buy weapons and equipment that suit their own military needs.
No longer being part of HATO they no longer would need to be confrontational against Russia and would have a much freer hand to decide which countries to cooperate with for the benefit of Turkey instead of the benefit of 1% of Americans who make money where Russia and China are the bad guys.
We had a few Turkish threads that show they have real talent with weapons programmes, though obviously like many countries they source some technologies from other countries... like engines and some other items, but other countries make those things too.
They are attempting to steal 1.4 billion dollars from Turkey... that is worse than the French with the Mistral... at least they had the dignity of giving them their money back and not being total dicks about it and demanding they buy the money owed in French military equipment...
The US will use every string and every lever to control those they cooperate with, which is why it is probably in Russias best interests to just take a break from the US and all cooperation and just not talk to them at all for a bit.
Perhaps Turkey should re-evaluate US forces on Turkish territory in the same regard... that might result in a bit of realisation for the US that they are not the indispensable country... not by a long shot.
Even Europe seems to think Turkey needs them more than they need Turkey...
No longer being part of HATO they no longer would need to be confrontational against Russia and would have a much freer hand to decide which countries to cooperate with for the benefit of Turkey instead of the benefit of 1% of Americans who make money where Russia and China are the bad guys.
We had a few Turkish threads that show they have real talent with weapons programmes, though obviously like many countries they source some technologies from other countries... like engines and some other items, but other countries make those things too.
An important market will be those countries that need SAMs and fighters but don't want the F-35. This means the US can't hold them to ransom.
They are attempting to steal 1.4 billion dollars from Turkey... that is worse than the French with the Mistral... at least they had the dignity of giving them their money back and not being total dicks about it and demanding they buy the money owed in French military equipment...
The US will use every string and every lever to control those they cooperate with, which is why it is probably in Russias best interests to just take a break from the US and all cooperation and just not talk to them at all for a bit.
Perhaps Turkey should re-evaluate US forces on Turkish territory in the same regard... that might result in a bit of realisation for the US that they are not the indispensable country... not by a long shot.
Even Europe seems to think Turkey needs them more than they need Turkey...
thegopnik- Posts : 1706
Points : 1708
Join date : 2017-09-20
https://breakingdefense.com/2022/07/exclusive-air-force-scraps-b-21-drone-wingman-concept/
With Su-75, Su-70 and PAK-DA drones, Turkey is going to be Russia's only serious competitor in the drone market.
GarryB- Posts : 38918
Points : 39414
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I think this is the only photo where the internal weapon stations of the Kızılelma are visible.
No, nothing is visible except the underbelly surface of something we can't see very much of, that someone has drawn a green rectangle on to suggest a potential surface... rather meaningless really.
Here are the rcs values for Kızılelma RCS:0.24 .However, the calculation is made of pec metal and no ram paint is used,If we add these rcs value decreases.
Actually the quality of the metal used, the precision of its fabrication and assembly all matter in RCS... angle alignments need to be near perfect or the entire structure will increase RCS and not decrease it.
With Su-75, Su-70 and PAK-DA drones, Turkey is going to be Russia's only serious competitor in the drone market.
Su-75 does not exist yet and wont fly for a few years and is primarily a light 5th gen fighter, the S-70 is not in service yet either, though it has flown and is actually a drone, while the PAK DA is primarily a strategic missile carrying aircraft.
The current international drone market is awash with drones from all sorts of countries including Israel and the US as well as China... Turkey does have good drone designs but is currently under sanction by its closest allies and its new main source of engines and parts is currently getting hammered by Russia.
Arkanghelsk- Posts : 3585
Points : 3591
Join date : 2021-12-08
Turkish unmanned fighter aircraft makes its first flight
The potentially game-changing Kizilelma unmanned fighter aircraft has taken to the skies for its inaugural flight on Dec. 14.
On Wednesday, Turkish-based Baykar company released footage from the successful first test flight for the highly-ambitious Kizilelma drone.
“Our 20-year dream in our national drone adventure has come true today,” said Baykar’s chief technical official Selcuk Bayraktar.
Wasn't Ivchenko Progress factory destroyed? Motor sich from what I understand was kalibrated some months ago
Could it be possible that motor sich has given its designs for AL-322 to Turkey?
The potentially game-changing Kizilelma unmanned fighter aircraft has taken to the skies for its inaugural flight on Dec. 14.
On Wednesday, Turkish-based Baykar company released footage from the successful first test flight for the highly-ambitious Kizilelma drone.
“Our 20-year dream in our national drone adventure has come true today,” said Baykar’s chief technical official Selcuk Bayraktar.
Wasn't Ivchenko Progress factory destroyed? Motor sich from what I understand was kalibrated some months ago
Could it be possible that motor sich has given its designs for AL-322 to Turkey?
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