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    Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

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    George1
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  George1 on Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:46 am

    NPOMash completed tests of new cruise missile, continues to work on new strategic system

    NPO Mashinostroyeniya (NPOMash), as the Chelomey Design Bureau is known, reported that in September 2014 it completed tests of a new cruise missile - "In September we completed state acceptance trials of a new cruise missile and two missile systems, ground-based and sea-based, that include the missile."

    This seems to be something different from the R-500 Iskander and the entire 3M14 and 3M54 line of cruise missiles that are being developed by the Novator Design Bureau (although I probably should not rule out a joint project of some sort). I'm wondering if the NPOMash cruise missile is the culprit in the INF Treaty compliance controversy. UPDATE: No, apparently it is not - see the discussion in comments.

    Also, NPOMash confirmed that it is carrying out flight tests of a new system for the Strategic Rocket Forces. This is clearly the Project 4202.

    http://russianforces.org/blog/2014/09/npomash_completed_tests_of_new.shtml
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:48 am

    Ukraine has suspended deliveries of engines for cruise missiles in the Russian Federation
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:01 am

    AFAIK the extended range estimates for the Kh-101 and Kh-102 is because the Russians have developed a new more powerful but also more fuel efficient engine for cruise missiles to replace those made in the Ukraine for older Soviet missiles.


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  max steel on Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:05 am

    NPOMash says it is not part of the Sarmat project.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:17 am

    Cruise missiles and INF - What about 9M729?

    I have a piece in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists where I try to untangle the controversy around alleged Russia's non-compliance with the INF Treaty. The short version of it is that I believe that the culprit missile is an SLCM that was tested from a "wrong" kind of launcher. It's still a violation, of course, which would require some creative thinking to reverse. Read the column for details.

    Hard evidence is difficult to come by these days (unfortunately, a ban on posting selfies taken on the test site seems to be enforced quite well), so all we have is bits and pieces that may or may not fit together. When the Bulletin column was published, some of my colleagues were skeptical about the SLCM claim. The question I got was, What about that 9M729 missile that looks like the Iskander's 9M728/R-500 follow-on?

    Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one.

    The 9M729 theory looks fairly compelling, but it doesn't seem to fit the various bits and pieces of information about the non-compliance allegation. First, U.S. officials have repeatedly said that the missile in question is not Iskander. There are many ways to interpret these statements, but I would think that if we were talking about a nuclear-capable Iskander missile the language would have been somewhat different.

    Then, as I understand, Russia has been working on long-range cruise missiles, but these seem to be larger (8 meters) missiles. This does not necessarily mean that there is no project that produced a short 6-meter missile to be launched from Iskander, but it's just another piece that doesn't quite fit.

    Also, I have it on good authority that the missile in question has its own launcher (apparently treaty-compliant) that is different from the (presumably non-fixed) launcher that triggered the non-compliance allegation. Again, this does not prove anything, but it's one more detail to consider.

    Finally, I would just note that the difference between SLCMs and GLCMs is very much artificial. There is no reason a SLCM cannot be easily deployed on land. There are few doubts that Russia is working on long-range SLCMs, which could then be deployed on ground-based launchers, if necessary. In fact, they don't have to be - as far as Europe is concerned, Russia could cover it with SLCMs. So, while I cannot completely rule out a scenario in which Russia decided to openly disregard the INF Treaty, I still strongly believe that the alternative - SLCM tests that turned out to be non-compliant - is much more plausible.

    Does anyone have details about this new missile??


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:37 am

    I like russianforces blog(contributors)  , i wish if they could also join this forum . Looks like a new modified cruise missile to me .
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:40 am

    I suspect they were testing a naval missile from a land launcher, which should not be a violation of the INF treaty as long as it was intended to be a naval missile... ie Ship or Sub Launched Cruise Missile... SLCM.

    One aspect no one seems to have considered is that current air launched cruise missiles have a flight range of 5,000km, which means if the naval and land based cruise missiles can attain this range or even slightly more they would be excluded from the INF agreement as they exceed the range boundaries.

    the INF agreement applies to missiles with a flight range of between 500 and 5,000km, so a new land attack cruise missile with a flight range of 5,000km or more would not be covered by the INF treaty.

    Ironically several US UCAVs however would be bound by the INF treaty...


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Rmf on Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:23 pm

    this is pure b.s. from americans to prop up BMD shields in romania. they have to come up with concrete EVIDENCE  that Russia has violated but they have not so far. ZERO.
    this missiles are probably for ships actually and submarines.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:24 pm

    They have propped up BMD shields in Romanian waters already .

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t672p15-romania-to-host-us-missile-interceptors (n.30)
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  George1 on Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:00 pm

    Prospective view of the Russian cruise missile X-101

    1. Yes, we believe that the rocket engine is similar to the rocket X-55 engine, it is pulled out of the fuselage after the launch, along with the opening of the wings.

    2. EPR? The engine is likely to most corners of the missile shield frame, which is made canonically - is in the form of reduced ESR.

    3. The rocket was to enter the Air Force in 2013, but for that there is no evidence. Of course, advances in privacy - our all, but dozens of rockets - not a needle and even a foe surely be feared, but ... silence.

    4. curious moment - one time there was a hypothesis about using a rocket X-101 propeller-fan motor. Perhaps such a project existed on paper, but in general it is even doubtful.

    5. Conversion of the Kh-101 cruise missile universal for different launch platforms - aircraft, submarines, ships, etc. until just it seems extremely doubtful, but the media write about the pr.885 perspective. However, their right.

    As for the new design - it's not perfect and has seen some of the shortcomings of interpretation. Let's wait for the critics, the facts, and I'll update.

    ps in the media usually mention the Su-34 - I do not believe, but the facts do not ... modernized Tu-22M also is not lit the rocket. As the Tu-160.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1371195.html


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  max steel on Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:38 am

    How do Russia tracks any incoming low flying cruise missile ?
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    How do Russia tracks any incoming low flying cruise missile ?

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:00 am

    max steel wrote:How do Russia tracks any incoming  low flying cruise missile ?

    Radar.

    Is this a serious question?

    Voronez radar can now detect cruise missiles, not just ballistic. That is an example.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Militarov on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:25 pm

    "There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately.  One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator.  I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related.  In fact, I bet they look exactly alike.  Here is my best effort at a hypothesis.  It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty.  But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

    Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty.  Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729.  There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile.  (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile.  That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see.  Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother.  That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander  beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.



    Now, this is where it gets tricky.  We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call  Klub.  So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.)  So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

    If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical?  That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that  we can infer something about the range of one based on the other.  The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km.  That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-Cool, depending on the type of warhead."


    I guess this goes under Ground force thread Smile

    Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

    "Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."


    Source: http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/cruise_missiles_and_inf_-_what.shtml





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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  max steel on Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:58 pm

    Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately.  One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator.  I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related.  In fact, I bet they look exactly alike.  Here is my best effort at a hypothesis.  It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty.  But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

    Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty.  Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729.  There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile.  (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile.  That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see.  Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother.  That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander  beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.



    Now, this is where it gets tricky.  We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call  Klub.  So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.)  So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

    If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical?  That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that  we can infer something about the range of one based on the other.  The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km.  That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-Cool, depending on the type of warhead."


    I guess this goes under Ground force thread Smile

    Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

    "Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."


    Source: http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/cruise_missiles_and_inf_-_what.shtml








    They didn't violate any treaty moreover US is violating with placement of SM missile series in both Poland and Romania.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:55 am

    There is no practical difference between a cruise missile with a flight range of more than 500km and a UAV with a flight range of more than 500km like Predator... especially an armed UAV like a UCAV.

    Of course the sizes involved the R-500 could easily have a reduce conventional payload and terminal guidance and a range of more than 5,500km and therefore still comply with the INF treaty...


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Nov 04, 2015 9:22 pm

    Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately.  One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator.  I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related.  In fact, I bet they look exactly alike.  Here is my best effort at a hypothesis.  It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty.  But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

    Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty.  Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729.  There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile.  (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile.  That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see.  Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother.  That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander  beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.



    Now, this is where it gets tricky.  We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call  Klub.  So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.)  So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

    If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical?  That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that  we can infer something about the range of one based on the other.  The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km.  That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-Cool, depending on the type of warhead."


    I guess this goes under Ground force thread Smile

    Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

    "Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."


    Source: http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/cruise_missiles_and_inf_-_what.shtml






    I really do hate it when people, especially those purporting to be military analysts, get their damn Iskander-Ms and Iskander-Ks mixed up.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:23 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately.  One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator.  I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related.  In fact, I bet they look exactly alike.  Here is my best effort at a hypothesis.  It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty.  But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

    Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty.  Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729.  There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile.  (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile.  That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see.  Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother.  That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander  beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.



    Now, this is where it gets tricky.  We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call  Klub.  So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.)  So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

    If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical?  That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that  we can infer something about the range of one based on the other.  The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km.  That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-Cool, depending on the type of warhead."


    I guess this goes under Ground force thread Smile

    Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

    "Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."


    Source: http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/cruise_missiles_and_inf_-_what.shtml






    I really do hate it when people, especially those purporting to be military analysts, get their damn Iskander-Ms and Iskander-Ks mixed up.

    Partially due to Russian designations i suppose. Also suddenly comes R-500/Iskander K, but there is already Iskander-M and E, people lose it Very Happy
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    Cruise missiles

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:32 am

    Militarov wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Militarov wrote:"There have been two Russian cruise missiles in the news lately.  One is a ground-launched cruise missile that apparently violates the 1987 Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, the other is a sea-launched cruise missile that Russia recently fired against targets in Syria. Both of these cruise missiles are made by the same firm, Novator.  I have a sneaking suspicion that they are closely related.  In fact, I bet they look exactly alike.  Here is my best effort at a hypothesis.  It is speculation, since the United States is not releasing any information about the missile that violates the INF treaty.  But I think we can make an educated guess or two.

    Bill Gertz (I know!) claimed that Russia had, on September 2, conducted another test of the ground-launched cruise missile that the United States claims violatesthe 1987 INF Treaty.  Gertz indicated that the US designation is the “SSC-X-8.” I believe this missile is designated 9M729.  There was a Russian announcement by GosNIIP, the design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles, that Russia completed state acceptance trials of the “ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version.” We know the 9M728 is the Iskander cruise missile.  (It is also called the R500 — the name of the missile is different from its GRAU number.) The way Russian GRAU numbers work is formulaic — the 9M means it is an Army missile.  That means the 9M729 is also for Iskander or a new launcher that we have yet to see.  Let’s presume that the 9M728 is a reduced-range version of the 9M729 — an INF-compliant version of its bigger brother.  That’s not hard to believe — Russian officials have long said they could extend the range of the cruise missile for Iskander  beyond 500 km with little difficulty; their confidence was probably rooted in some evidence.



    Now, this is where it gets tricky.  We know the Russians make an export version of the Kalibr family missiles, which they call  Klub.  So, Klub missiles are reduced range versions of the Kalibr systems that can be exported without violating the MTCR. (You may recall they are marketed with the awesome video about how great it is to hide cruise missiles in shipping containers.)  So, for example, the 3M14E (e is for export) Klub is a reduced range (~300 km) version of the 3M14 Kalibr that Russia used to strike Syria (2,000 km). It is hard to know how Russia reduced the range, but one option is just to reduce the size of the fuel tank. It is possible that the Kalibr and Klub versions are externally identical, although we don’t know that for certain.

    If the 9M728/R500 deployed with Iskander (~500 km range) is a reduced range version of the 9M729 (~2000 km), and if the 3M14E is a reduced range version of the 3M14, what does it say that the reduced range versions appear to be identical?  That would strongly imply, to me anyway, that the 9M729 and the 3M14 are probably externally identical. We are looking at a single family of missiles. One benefit of concluding the the 3m14 and the 9M279 are likely similar is that  we can infer something about the range of one based on the other.  The United States has not offered a public assessment of the GLCM range, but the Russians have described the range of the 3m14 (SS-N-30A) as 2000-2500 km.  That would imply a similar range for the 9M729 (SSC-X-Cool, depending on the type of warhead."


    I guess this goes under Ground force thread Smile

    Full article: http://lewis.armscontrolwonk.com/archive/7816/russian-cruise-missiles-revisited

    "Well, what about it? Very much all we know about 9M729 comes from a brief mention in a report of GosNIIP, a design bureau that builds guidance for cruise missiles (the site has been taken down for redesign). According to the report, Russia completed state acceptance trials of the "ground-based system 9M728, 9M729 and its modernized version." We know that 9M728 is a cruise missile developed as part of the Iskander project (see "Kamnev" on this page; as always, thanks to Alexander for the links). It appears that it is the missile usually referred to as R-500, which has been now deployed with Iskander-M systems.

    It's very reasonable to suggest that 9M729 is a follow-on to 9M728, also to be deployed as part of the ground-based Iskander-M. If so, it appear to be a very good candidate for the role of the INF non-compliance culprit. The only thing I would note here that since it was tested together with 9M728, it's unlikely to be a follow-on. A long-range version with a light (presumably nuclear) payload would be one possibility. But not the only one."


    Source: http://russianforces.org/blog/2015/06/cruise_missiles_and_inf_-_what.shtml






    I really do hate it when people, especially those purporting to be military analysts, get their damn Iskander-Ms and Iskander-Ks mixed up.

    Partially due to Russian designations i suppose. Also suddenly comes R-500/Iskander K, but there is already Iskander-M and E, people lose it Very Happy

    Can't be that hard, the Iskander-M/E is a ballistic missile system and has nothing to do with all this huu-haa about treaty violations (it is subject to the INF treaty too but no-one suspects it of violating it).

    The only thing it shares in common with the Iskander-K is its designation and the chassis.

    And if I know all this than a military analyst damn well should too.
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  George1 on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:04 pm

    Sivkov: cruise missiles X-101 could be used for the first time in Syria

    Russian combat aircraft to Syria for the first time can use the new super-powerful vacuum bomb, weighing about 40 tons, also the president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, Konstantin Sivkov.

    MOSCOW, November 18 - RIA Novosti. The newest cruise missiles X-101, never before used in combat may have been involved in the air strikes inflicted on the eve of the air and space forces of the Russian Federation on the positions "of the Islamic state" in Syria, said RIA Novosti Wednesday, the president of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, Konstantin Sivkov.

    He was commenting on reports by some media, according to which the Russian strategic bombers Tu-95MS, involved in the operation of the RF videoconferencing in Syria from November 17, allegedly fired on the positions of the IG cruise missiles X-101, which was their first combat use in history.

    "Most likely, all was well. On the one hand, it is an act of intimidation LIH, and the other - testing new weapons. It is one thing - to make education one or two launches of missiles, and the other - its combat use," - said Sivkov.

    The interviewee noted that the X-101 missile could be launched from the territory of Russia, as its range of defeat is more than 5000 kilometers, twice the range of the missile, "Caliber", launched by IG from the Caspian Sea. However, to date, ground launchers for such missiles there.

    "The launch of this missile can be carried out with at least a height of 3 thousand meters, maximum - 12 thousand meters, provided that the aircraft is moving at a speed of 900 kilometers per hour. In contrast to the land- and sea-based at the X-101 is not the start of the engine, so it should be to drop from the air, so that it already had an initial speed "- said the expert.

    According Sivkova during operation videoconferencing in Syria can be tested, and other advanced weaponry.

    "I think that for the first time in Syria, can be used a new heavy-duty vacuum bomb, weighing about 40 tons with an explosive capacity of about 400 tons of TNT. There may also be tested in action guided aerial bombs caliber big weight of 1.5 tons," - he said.

    According to open sources, advanced cruise missiles X-101/102, which differ from each other warhead (non-nuclear and nuclear respectively) were developed by Engineering Design Bureau "Raduga" in the period of 1995-2013 years. The missile has a launch weight of 2.4 tons, range of lesion - 5500 kilometers. Currently, they are mass-produced for strategic missile-carrying bomber Tu-95MS.


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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Vympel on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:26 pm

    Kh-101, in operational paintjob, shown in this Russian MOD video in what is obviously the weapons bay of a Tu-160 - heavily implying it was deployed in the Syria airstrikes:


    https://twitter.com/mod_russia/status/666661430511460352

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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:28 pm

    Do Kh-101 cruise missile have engine that falls down or is protected by Scoop intake
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    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:43 am

    Austin wrote:Do Kh-101 cruise missile have engine that falls down or is protected by Scoop intake

    The engine gets lowered, just like Kh-55.
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    Kh-101 missile

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:28 am

    As can be seen in the following image, Kh-555 has both radar and optical TERCOM guidance.

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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  Project Canada on Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:59 am

    meanwhile, russophobes in hysterical joy over the failure of one russian cruise missile (article comment section) Rolling Eyes I wonder if this is a new cruise missile in development

    Russian cruise missile goes astray, lands near village
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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:03 am

    Project Canada wrote:meanwhile, russophobes in hysterical joy over the failure of one russian cruise missile (article comment section) Rolling Eyes  I wonder if this is a new cruise missile in development

    Russian cruise missile goes astray, lands near village

    Why do you consistently post garbage?  All you are doing is posting links to: "look what these people say about Russians.  They are stupid according to these people!!!"  No one cares.  Stop flooding this forums with garbage yahoo news.

    1 Failed? Oh noes!   We can point to countless western failures.   But that isn't the point of the forums and isn't the point of the discussion about what westerners think.

    If you want to be insistent on posting garbage about it, here you go: http://www.russiadefence.net/t2433p360-western-propaganda#142675

    Otherwise, use credible sources.

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    Re: Russian Cruise Missiles Thread

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