Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

diabetus wrote:I hope they are very careful about neutralizing all AT weapons where t-62s will be used

I hope that T-62 will not be used anywhere where heavy fighting is going on. This tank is not for modern day fighting anymore.
Especially, since Russia has 7-8000 T-72 in reserve.

The textbook case of air superiority was the First Gulf War. Hundreds of aircraft were used in a carefully orchestrated attack to suppress what was at the time a very large air defense network with multiple redundancies and hundreds of SAM launchers and hundreds of aircraft. Only one allied aircraft was lost to air -to-air combat (an F-18 shot down by a Mig 25). 51 fixed winged aircraft and 23 helicopters were lost primarily to AAA and manpads. The successful suppression dependent upon five key technological advantages:

1. The use of stealth technology aircraft
2. The superiority of the coalition in ECM/ECCM, radar, and avionics
3. Superior technological situational awareness via space, air, and land-based means
4. Secure communication channels and the ability to intercept and decrypt enemy communications
5. Strikes with cruise missiles against high value targets

In the current Ukrainian conflict, it is likely that Russia does not enjoy superiority in number 3 or 4 over NATO supported Ukraine and has limited ability in factor 1. Even using legacy Soviet systems, it is apparent that Ukraine is being aided in factor 2 also. Only in factor 5 does Russia actually surpass Western militaries. The end result is Russia does not have air dominance. The entire Western (and Israeli) model of war depends 100% on air dominance. Thus, it is not surprising given the resources devoted to this end that they have very advanced systems. The root origin of this dominance is superiority in microelectronics dating back decades. Stealth technology was of course invented (in terms of the mathematical algorithms) in the USSR - idiotically published in open-source documents - and developed and matured in the West.

Russians are playing this very conservatively and frankly the fog of war is so thick that sources I thought I could trust I now take with little seriousness. You seem to know a lot about defense stuff Cal and I do not really but from everything I can see we have little clue whqt is actually happening and just as important why things are happening the way they are happening.

So I am steering clear of any serious judgement until the months/years pass. The propaganda is too thick. Our leaders and our media is acting strange. I don't trust anyone anymore. This includes Russians, though I am much more sympathetic to the Russian side of things because of the behavior of our politicians and NGOs and think tanks here in the west.

If say Cuba was weaponized against us by China, we're sent weapons, defense pacts discussed, and Cuba started threatening to take Guantanamo bay, what would we do? Same as the Russians have done. Now as far as how they have prosecuted the war it is still too soon to judge. They are clearly holding back and not throwing their top kit at it. If Russia declared war and fully mobilized then I am sure we would have seen total dominance of the battle space. That has not happened though.

calripson wrote:The textbook case of air superiority was the First Gulf War. Hundreds of aircraft were used in a carefully orchestrated attack to suppress what was at the time a very large air defense network with multiple redundancies and hundreds of SAM launchers and hundreds of aircraft. Only one allied aircraft was lost to air -to-air combat (an F-18 shot down by a Mig 25). 51 fixed winged aircraft and 23 helicopters were lost primarily to AAA and manpads. The successful suppression dependent upon five key technological advantages:

1. The use of stealth technology aircraft
2. The superiority of the coalition in ECM/ECCM, radar, and avionics
3. Superior technological situational awareness via space, air, and land-based means
4. Secure communication channels and the ability to intercept and decrypt enemy communications
5. Strikes with cruise missiles against high value targets

In the current Ukrainian conflict, it is likely that Russia does not enjoy superiority in number 3 or 4 over NATO supported Ukraine and has limited ability in factor 1. Even using legacy Soviet systems, it is apparent that Ukraine is being aided in factor 2 also. Only in factor 5 does Russia actually surpass Western militaries. The end result is Russia does not have air dominance. The entire Western (and Israeli) model of war depends 100% on air dominance. Thus, it is not surprising given the resources devoted to this end that they have very advanced systems. The root origin of this dominance is superiority in microelectronics dating back decades. Stealth technology was of course invented (in terms of the mathematical algorithms) in the USSR - idiotically published in open-source documents - and developed and matured in the West.

I have to disagree with this,

On the Russian border, Russian situational awareness is top level

With radar systems, OTH, and Satellite systems constantly monitoring the whole border

The VKS has suppressed the IADS of Ukraine

Which is league's ahead of Iraqi systems in Kuwait and Iraq

We are not talking about s125 which downed Scott Speicher F18 in Iraq war

But about modern S300 - which NATO never faced against

Also Buk and Tor systems which NATO had never faced

And the E3 and Satellite systems helping to cue the IADS of Ukraine

Russian VKS in spite of those challenges ( not being able to directly strike NATO reconnaissance means, although having the capacity )

Still performed above NATO level

NATO and the US have only ever faced S125 or S200

And Kub or Kvadrat systems

It's ridiculous to say Russia does not enjoy superiority in 3 or 4

It's that Russia does not destroy NATO C4isr As it would cause WW3, although we very much have the means to do so

Including with Mig-31 which would blind AWACS

And ASAT missiles which would bring down all Satellite systems over the Russian forces

Russia is not fighting with full means at its disposal

But fights the restricted Special Military Operation , with strict rules of engagement , and limitations due to the desire to maintain the conflict below the WW3 level

However if we speak about Ukraines air defenses

We can say without a doubt they were superior in technology and organization as well as training to Iraq in the gulf Wars and 2003

And Russia did this without its highest technology or forces being employed

Kh31 showed itself to be of a level better than AGM88 harm, killing Ukrainian S300, again leagues ahead of Pechora S125

And hunting mobile systems, which NATO struggled with even in Yugoslav wars

diabetus wrote:

Backman wrote:

Ispan wrote:Alleged to be from Kherson, T-62 tanks marching to the front, notice, five wheels

https://t.me/swodki/110426?single
to see them on the Donbass front.

The second biggest army in NATO has 1500+ M-60 Patton tanks in service with some deployed to Syria right now.

So the whole muh T-62 thing was a Western media con job

In all fairness though, those M60s are more advanced than any T-62M.

Grass is always greener bs. My neighbors beater is always better than my own beater.

You don't know the full spec of what M-60's are in Syria or the alleged T-62's in Ukraine. They are both from the same era is the main point.

Backman wrote:

diabetus wrote:

Backman wrote:

Ispan wrote:Alleged to be from Kherson, T-62 tanks marching to the front, notice, five wheels

https://t.me/swodki/110426?single
to see them on the Donbass front.

The second biggest army in NATO has 1500+ M-60 Patton tanks in service with some deployed to Syria right now.

So the whole muh T-62 thing was a Western media con job

In all fairness though, those M60s are more advanced than any T-62M.

Grass is always greener bs. My neighbors beater is always better than my own beater.

ok remind me which T-62M has a pretty modern FCS and at least thermal optics for the gunner?

A plane was shot down.

I think it's debatable if Russia should take out Zelensky or at least take out some of the motley crew around him.

Zelensky isn't going to sign any peace deal. Zelensky is the US. Maybe only if he's captured. But then they won't recognize it.

Drop some bombs around the vicinity of the government buildings then. On the street or something. Chase this swine back into Poland or at least give them a good scare.

That's what I would do. Just my 2c.

"failure with electronic warfare ,in keeping enemy drones blind "

Meanwhile in reality... The Armed Forces of Ukraine complain that conducting tactical reconnaissance using UAVs has become significantly more complicated due to the operation of Russian electronic warfare systems, which jam cellular communication centers and Internet sources at enemy command posts and make reconnaissance drones absolutely useless.

https://t.me/asbmil/2000

diabetus wrote:

Backman wrote:

diabetus wrote:

Backman wrote:

Ispan wrote:Alleged to be from Kherson, T-62 tanks marching to the front, notice, five wheels

https://t.me/swodki/110426?single
to see them on the Donbass front.

The second biggest army in NATO has 1500+ M-60 Patton tanks in service with some deployed to Syria right now.

So the whole muh T-62 thing was a Western media con job

In all fairness though, those M60s are more advanced than any T-62M.

Grass is always greener bs. My neighbors beater is always better than my own beater.

ok remind me which T-62M has a pretty modern FCS and at least thermal optics for the gunner?

None

The Turks upgrading the t60 tanks is like the t72 thanks being upgraded. The use of old tank stockpiles is only logical if you wish to save funds and stockpiles of better equipment, particularly if these will be used against lesser equipped enemies.

Why you guys seething about it anyways? Go back to f-16.net if you are truly bothered. Oh that's right you would be banned for saying anything not conforming to their hugbox forum views. You come here to discuss in nuance and go back to Reddit tier hive minds for comfort.

TMA1 wrote:The Turks upgrading the t60 tanks is like the t72 thanks being upgraded. The use of old tank stockpiles is only logical if you wish to save funds and stockpiles of better equipment, particularly if these will be used against lesser equipped enemies.

Why you guys seething about it anyways? Go back to f-16.net if you are truly bothered. Oh that's right you would be banned for saying anything not conforming to their hugbox forum views. You come here to discuss in nuance and go back to Reddit tier hive minds for comfort.

Base T-72 is much better tank than base M60. That's not even for debate. I'm puzzled why Russians activated T-62 with so many T-72 in reserve.

caveat emptor wrote:

TMA1 wrote:The Turks upgrading the t60 tanks is like the t72 thanks being upgraded. The use of old tank stockpiles is only logical if you wish to save funds and stockpiles of better equipment, particularly if these will be used against lesser equipped enemies.

Why you guys seething about it anyways? Go back to f-16.net if you are truly bothered. Oh that's right you would be banned for saying anything not conforming to their hugbox forum views. You come here to discuss in nuance and go back to Reddit tier hive minds for comfort.

Base T-72 is much better tank than base M60. That's not even for debate. I'm puzzled why Russians activated T-62 with so many T-72 in reserve.

1. Counterintelligence. It would not surprise me if there are not hundreds or maybe even thousands of NATO intel officers on the ground in Ukraine to say nothing of NATO looking at all Russian equipment in theater on satellite and doing electronic surveillance. Putin knows this war may eventually turn into a much larger war against NATO instead of the current proxy war, and so he wants to keep the newer stuff in the Russian arsenal such as modernized and newer type T-72/T-90s, BMD, and other newer vehicles. NATO, especially the US, France, and Great Britain, know that Saddam and Assad had monkeyworks equipment and that they have never actually seen battle ready front line worthy Soviet/Russian equipment in combat against contemporary NATO weaponry and countermeasures. Should NATO decide to expand its efforts against Russia and wage an ill advised invasion of Russia, they would really want to have this intelligence. Putin is doing everything he can to limit their ability to gather this intelligence.

2. I admit, its a Western opinion, but the western consensus is that Russia's cruise missiles and precision munitions are on par or better than and available in higher quantities than anything in the NATO stockpiles whereas Russian equipment that the army is supplied with is substandard. Hold on, I am going somewhere with this. . . . It could be that the precision strikes have so decimated Ukraine's ability to do anything but deploy artillery and infantry. In other words, Ukraine does not have the ability to wage armored warfare or combined arms warfare let alone deep battle and so Russia does not feel the need to deploy current generation equipment.

3. To justify the procurement of T-14 and Armata family and T-90s and other of the latest in miltary technology the vast Cold War era armor parks may be being emptied out. This is because to rehash point one, they don't want the US and NATO to be able to collect intelligence on late model Russian equipment, because Russian air and rocket strikes have severely degraded Ukraine's ability to wage armored or combined arms warfare and so there is no point in deploying newer equipment that needs to be kept in reserve in case NATO plans an invasion of Russia. Prevent the west from collecting intel, have enough older stuff in the inventory to accomplish the mission, and you clean out the armor parks and get large orders for new weapons systems you win, win, and win again.

I think Russia knows the technology on the T-72B3M or the T-90 has probably leaked by now.

The T-90 was exported so widely that quite likely the US already inspected it. With the exception of the laser dazzlers the export tanks are pretty much similar. They might have less armor but there is no evidence of this being the case.

The most useful things to analyze from the tanks that have been lost thus far would be the 2A46M gun and Svinets-2 ammo plus Relikt. But those are only present on the T-90M. Notice how the only T-90M which Russia lost in Ukraine was thoroughly destroyed by the Russian troops to prevent the technology falling into enemy hands. While stock T-90s which broke down were left in the middle of the fields as is. They clearly do not consider the technology in the older tanks to be important enough to hide.

This Fighter Bomber telegram channel is posting all of a Frog foot crews gear for all to see. Is this legal ? He shouldn't be doing this.

He probably doesn't even know that American sanctions autists are gonna go through every item and make propaganda out of it.

https://t.me/fighter_bomber/7447?single

caveat emptor wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

The MGM-140 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS) is a surface-to-surface missile (SSM) manufactured by the U.S. defense company Lockheed Martin. It has a range of up to 190 miles
(310 km) ,[7] with solid propellant, and is 13 feet (4.0 m) high and 24 inches (610 mm) in diameter.

The ATACMS can be fired from multiple rocket launchers, including the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS), and M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS). An ATACMS launch container has a lid patterned with six circles like a standard MLRS rocket lid.

It was already stated by US multiple times, that Ukraine will not get ATACMS.

and you believe in that because ?
let me guess , the west said so?

They also told they will not move one inch towards russian borders , if soviet union retire from germany.. and we know how that turned up.. nothing the west said , can be taken as a fact , they always say something with words and do something else.. NATO also told will not be participating in the war in ukraine which is another lie , by the generals captured in mariupol.. time to use for something those brains..

Backman wrote:This Fighter Bomber telegram channel is posting all of a Frog foot crews gear for all to see. Is this legal ? He shouldn't be doing this.

He probably doesn't even know that American sanctions autists are gonna go through every item and make propaganda out of it.

https://t.me/fighter_bomber/7447?single

This is equipment bought by donations of the people for forward observers and pilots. There's nothing secret about it.

calripson wrote:The textbook case of air superiority was the First Gulf War. Hundreds of aircraft were used in a carefully orchestrated attack to suppress what was at the time a very large air defense network with multiple redundancies and hundreds of SAM launchers and hundreds of aircraft. Only one allied aircraft was lost to air -to-air combat (an F-18 shot down by a Mig 25). 51 fixed winged aircraft and 23 helicopters were lost primarily to AAA and manpads. The successful suppression dependent upon five key technological advantages:

1. The use of stealth technology aircraft
2. The superiority of the coalition in ECM/ECCM, radar, and avionics
3. Superior technological situational awareness via space, air, and land-based means
4. Secure communication channels and the ability to intercept and decrypt enemy communications
5. Strikes with cruise missiles against high value targets

In the current Ukrainian conflict, it is likely that Russia does not enjoy superiority in number 3 or 4 over NATO supported Ukraine and has limited ability in factor 1. Even using legacy Soviet systems, it is apparent that Ukraine is being aided in factor 2 also. Only in factor 5 does Russia actually surpass Western militaries. The end result is Russia does not have air dominance. The entire Western (and Israeli) model of war depends 100% on air dominance. Thus, it is not surprising given the resources devoted to this end that they have very advanced systems. The root origin of this dominance is ***superiority in microelectronics*** dating back decades. Stealth technology was of course invented (in terms of the mathematical algorithms) in the USSR - idiotically published in open-source documents - and developed and matured in the West.

The lack of advance electronics ,  the mediocre nation development , is the reason ,
why they can mass produce advance drones with their own industries ,and depends on taiwan or other nations under the western system umbrella ,to help them do it..   This is why those  orlan drones depends on japanes cameras.. every single electronics of russian military is full of american or asian tech.. that russia get in the black market , through third party vendors..  There is claims of russian army using washing machine electronics in some of their weapons.. which will not surprise me.. if true..

All this goes back , to putin's artificial development of russia , the lack of funding for it and high tech industry , and focusing so much in gas station business ,and later in sport distraction contest and luxury parks. ie.. artificial development of the nation.  

Russia can't build computers or advance smart phones locally ,using their own industries that can compete with western ones..  and all this advance electronics are need for the development and manufacturing of advance drones..   so this major limitations in high tech , is was is causing russia
to significantly limit the use of drones in ukraine,, because the don't have many,, they need to limit their use ,after american sanctions.

the under development of russian economy , focused primary as a farming /mining/energy gas station , is what is costing lives to russian military , for the massive delay of their operations ,for not having high tech independence from the west and its colonies.

Wondering how is russia going to modernize its military now without western tech..
perhaps china will had to step in an rescue russia military with tech Russia no longer will have access again under permanent sanctions.

The USSR lag in microelectronics dates back to the invention of the transistor and semiconductor. Putin didn't invent this issue, but he certainly didn't close the gap.

PapaDragon wrote:

ucmvulcan wrote:3. To justify the procurement of T-14 and Armata family and T-90s and other of the latest in miltary technology the vast Cold War era armor parks may be being emptied out....

Been saying this for a while, endless stores of Soviet era equipment have been massive cockblock for any procurement of new vehicles

Introduction of new Kamaz trucks was a colossal bureaucratic and institutional slog that took over a decade to happen because both brass and bean counters didn't want to switch

It's even worse with tanks and IFVs so now they are sending and giving away everything with "Made in USSR" label (hell, anything not made in this century in some cases)

T-14 will never get introduced in full until they get rid of the old stuff

Sure thing. But T-62 should be on its way to Africa or Syria or wherever the **** they want to ship them to. They've been doing upgrade for T-72 for several years now and they've become efficient in it. I don't understand why even taking out T-62 from the storage in the middle of the war, if not for anything else, for fucking 115mm gun. Now you have to haul around another caliber. It makes logistics more complicated. LDPR units were not using it, as well.
If anything, take T-72B from the storage install ERA and that tank beats T-62 in every aspect.

PapaDragon wrote:
T-62s are going to the locals, they never stopped using them

Don't confuse Republicans with Russian Army, different supply chains

As far as i am aware they always had T-64 and T-72. Maybe some T-55s in 2014.

Why do the russians never use S-24 and S-25 rockets for their aircraft?