Russian Navy may receive shipborne version of Tor antiaircraft missile system in 2018-2019
The naval version of the Tor antiaircraft missile system may be developed already in 2018-2019 and the Russian Navy command shows interest in this project, the press office of Almaz-Antey manufacturer said at the KADEX-2016 international weapons exhibition on Friday.
The Russian Navy is considering the possibility of creating the naval version of the Tor antiaircraft missile system owing to the need to replace the outdated shipborne complexes Osa and Kinzhal, Almaz-Antey said.
"The manufacturer has worked on this issue and, considering the experience of enterprises cooperating in the production and assembly of Osa, Kinzhal and other systems on naval ships, and also the possibility of using the components of the serial-produced Tor antiaircraft missile systems for the Army, a conclusion can be made about developing the Tor shipborne version within the shortest time possible (the first examples of the antiaircraft missile system may appear in 2018-2019) and, what’s more, at minimal costs," Almaz-Antey said.
By some parameters, the shipborne version will be superior to the existing examples of the Tor family, the Almaz-Antey press office said. Last year, Fanil Ziyatdinov, general director of the Kupol Electromechanical Factory, part of Almaz-Antey and the parent enterprise for the production of Tor antiaircraft missile systems, said that the enterprise planned to develop the Tor shipborne version.
According to him, the idea was to use the Tor antiaircraft missile system on the ships undergoing modernization. The head of the enterprise didn’t give any further details.
max steel wrote:Russian Navy may receive shipborne version of Tor antiaircraft missile system in 2018-2019
The naval version of the Tor antiaircraft missile system may be developed already in 2018-2019 and the Russian Navy command shows interest in this project, the press office of Almaz-Antey manufacturer said at the KADEX-2016 international weapons exhibition on Friday.
The Russian Navy is considering the possibility of creating the naval version of the Tor antiaircraft missile system owing to the need to replace the outdated shipborne complexes Osa and Kinzhal, Almaz-Antey said.
"The manufacturer has worked on this issue and, considering the experience of enterprises cooperating in the production and assembly of Osa, Kinzhal and other systems on naval ships, and also the possibility of using the components of the serial-produced Tor antiaircraft missile systems for the Army, a conclusion can be made about developing the Tor shipborne version within the shortest time possible (the first examples of the antiaircraft missile system may appear in 2018-2019) and, what’s more, at minimal costs," Almaz-Antey said.
By some parameters, the shipborne version will be superior to the existing examples of the Tor family, the Almaz-Antey press office said. Last year, Fanil Ziyatdinov, general director of the Kupol Electromechanical Factory, part of Almaz-Antey and the parent enterprise for the production of Tor antiaircraft missile systems, said that the enterprise planned to develop the Tor shipborne version.
According to him, the idea was to use the Tor antiaircraft missile system on the ships undergoing modernization. The head of the enterprise didn’t give any further details.
Waiit.. 3K95 "Kinzhal" exists for like 3 decades. And Tor-М2КМ module cant sort of be placed on anything including ships. there is not much to be "developed".
Could the following naval SAM systems target/engage multiple missiles/planes at the same time ? 4k33 OSA M Uragan S-300F Fort 3K95 kinzal naval version of Tor
the sea sparrow installed on NATO destroyers and cruisers can it engagae multiple targets thanks
A single OSA mount can guide two missiles to one target.
Klintok (Naval TOR) can guide 8 missiles to four targets.
Regarding naval models of S-300 I suspect the same or better... ie 12 missiles to 6 targets for Fort, Uragan would be dependant on the number of antenna arrays but could be up to 4 targets with 8 missiles.
A single OSA mount can guide two missiles to one target.
Klintok (Naval TOR) can guide 8 missiles to four targets.
Regarding naval models of S-300 I suspect the same or better... ie 12 missiles to 6 targets for Fort, Uragan would be dependant on the number of antenna arrays but could be up to 4 targets with 8 missiles.
Assuming I am an OSA operator (or for that matter a S-400, BUK, Tor operator) and I establish a radar lock on an adversary aircraft.
Will the pilot of the adversary aircraft get to know that I have established a radar lock before I have fired the missile or will he get to know that only when I have fired the missile?
This being a naval weapons thread I assume you mean the naval model of OSA, in which case the vast majority of targets you will lock will be anti ship missiles that wont know they are being targeted.
A helo or close by aircraft will detect your search radar scanning for them and once detected it will detect the tracking radar (which operates at a different frequency) tracking them.
That will tell they they are likely under attack.
The tracking radar continually updates the precise location of the target while also tracking the outgoing missile and sending course corrections to that missile.
New models would allow optical tracking of the target and missile but that is not all weather day night and its accuracy and range performance is not as good as radar but it is at least passive.
Preliminary tests of Russia's sea-based Pantsir air defense system completed — official
The new weapons system will be mounted on various types of warships, "from small-sized missile ships to big patrol vessels"
TULA, September 16. /TASS/. Preliminary trials of the Patsir-M anti-aircraft cannon system have been completed successfully, Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said on Friday.
"We have conducted preliminary tests of the sea-based Pantsir, which demonstrated positive results. Now we are to begin official tests. We hope to begin by the end of this year," he told journalists.
He said the new weapons system will be mounted on various types of warships, "from small-sized missile ships to big patrol vessels."
According to earlier reports, it is planned to begin tests of the sea-based Pantsir system onboard a ship at the end of 2016.
The Pantsir-M is designed to supersede the Kortik system.
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html
So neither Redut nor Shtil work?
Even after all this time?
Sound like Borisov is reminding Almaz-Antey that this isn't the U.S and they're not General Dynamics nor Lockheed Martin.
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html
So neither Redut nor Shtil work?
Even after all this time?
I thought that the Sthil system was tried and tested. We saw plenty of videos it being used and the core of the system is in use for the last 25 years, I presume that the "only" things that the new Shtil system introduced was better and faster electronics, better missile maneuvering and tracking and vertical launch capability. But all of it is based on a platform that works for some time now.
"Due to the untimely performance by the Almaz Antei concern of development work on the Redut and Shtil elements, the delivery terms of the 22350 Admiral Gorshkov and 11356 Admiral Makarov ships are in jeopardy," said Borisov, Speaking within the framework of the United Day of Acceptance of Military Equipment, the meeting of which was broadcast by the Rossiya 24 (VGTRK) channel.
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2508759.html
So neither Redut nor Shtil work?
Even after all this time?
Maybe the statement was just taken out of context.
There is ample evidence that there are significant operational problems with the Redut naval system and apparently Shtil as well. This begs the question: are the deployed Stereguschy class ships deployed with non-operational SAM systems ? It is a little odd that the land based systems appear to work but not the naval versions.
Analysis: Russian Navy Tests Tor-M2KM air defense missile system from Admiral Grigorovich Frigate
The Russian Navy is testing the Tor (NATO reporting name: SA-15 Gauntlet) surface-to-air missile (SAM) system. The military is trying to plug the holes in ship air defense with the advanced small-size SAM system, expert Sergei Ishchenko writes in an article on the Svobodnaya Pressa news website.
Launch of a 9M331M surface to air missile from the self-contained combat module 9K331MKM short-range missile system Tor-M2KM, placed on the helicopter deck of the head frigate Admiral Grigorovich of Project 11356. Screenshot from "Russia 24" video (via bmpd.livejournal.com).
At the IDEX 2017 arms show, Russian corporation Almaz-Antei showed an interesting advert video. It turned out that it had been shot in October 2016 by the Black Sea Fleet that was testing a new weapon, the Tor-M2KM SAM system. The self-contained fighting module of the Tor-M2KM, manufactured by Kupol in the city of Izhevsk, was mounted on the helipad of the Admiral Grigorovich frigate, the Project 11356 lead ship (NATO reporting name: Admiral Grigorovich-class). It was loaded onto the deck by means of an ordinary wharf crane and then was fixed in position with steel chains like a helicopter. It launched SAMs at simulated cruise missiles, and the tests were a success, judging by the video.
Initially, the mobile Tor SAM system was being developed solely as a provider of air defense for army divisions on the march and in position in the 1980s. Since the transporter-erector-launcher-and-radar (TELAR) vehicle proved to be very good, soon the Navy wanted it too. Its ship-based short-range version, designated Kinzhal (SA-N-9 Gauntlet), was derived. It is able to deal with any up-to-date air threats at a range of 1.5-12 km and has been installed on all Project 1155 (Udaloy II) antisubmarine warfare destroyers, Admiral Kuznetsov (Kuznetsov-class) aircraft carrier and Pyotr Veliky (Kirov-class) nuclear-powered guided missile battlecruiser.
The Kinzhal SAM system is bulky enough (its on-deck segment alone measures 113 sq.m) and rather heavy (41.5 tons) and has a crew of 13. On the other hand, the Tor-M2KM’s fighting module weighs almost thrice as little - mere 15 tons. According to its manufacturer, one needs only any horizontal platform 2.5 m wide and at least 7.1 m long without any mechanical or hydraulic actuators to link the Tor-M2KM to the platform. The module has all it takes to fight - the special equipment, computer system, radar, optics, missiles, operator compartment, self-contained and backup systems with an organic fuel store, life support, ventilation and air conditioning systems.
In other words, the Tor-M2KM can be mounted in no time not only almost on any surface combatant of a rather modest displacement but on a truck as well, or, say, on the roof of a high-rise. This is granted by the module’s complete self-contained operating capability afforded by its organic power supply in the form of a gas-turbine power plant.
Russia 24 video
What is more, the SAM system is actually a very compact fighting robotic system, because the automation of its operation has been maximized. Only fancy, it goes from standby to full alert in 3 min., has an organic radar capable of acquiring 144 air targets and simultaneously tracking the 20 most dangerous ones, its crew of only two have only to mark one target as the priority for engagement as the module begins to autotrack three more within the field of fire and gives them the good news - a SAM each.
The maximum range of the Tor-M2KM’s missiles is 3 km longer than that of the Kinzhal’s SAMs. This is important in the lightning-fast battles against enemy aircraft and missiles. The kill probability featured by the Tor-M2KM’s SAMs is at least 0.98.
Thus, this is a radically sophisticated and up-to-date ship-borne AD weapon. However, what is it designed for? Presumably, the answer lies in the participants in the trials onboard the Admiral Grigorovich. According to an official news release, engineers and designers from the Severnoye and Zelenodolsk design bureaux are taking part in the tests along with personnel of Kupol and the Navy Shipbuilding and Armament Research Institute. Let us take a closer look at the fact.
Now, the Zelenodolsk Design Bureau’s priority is to build a large series of Project 21631 (Buyan-M-class) guided missile corvettes.
The Buyan-M was designed for the Black Sea Fleet and Caspian Flotilla. Its purpose initially was to guard and defend the country’s exclusive economic zones. Since it was believed that it would not have to operate too far away from the shore, the Buyan-M was made capable of navigating rivers as well. The ship’s narrow beam (11 m) and low draught (2.6 m) enable her to negotiate the locks of the Volga-Baltic Waterway easily. Her waterjets are not designed for high-seas operations either. In October 2016, Buyan-Ms headed for the Baltic Fleet around Europe. The cruise through the Atlantic highlighted both the strengths and weaknesses of the class. Their total vulnerability to air attack became obvious. Certainly, the designers who conceived the class for riverine and sea operations believed that strong air defense was unnecessary for it. Hence, to save room for the Kalibr (SS-N-27 Sizzler) missiles, they limited themselves to the fitting of the Buyan-M with a pair of pedestal-mounted launchers of the 3M47 Gibka system.
Hence, it is a natural that the advent of new missions for the Buyan-M fleet has made the designers rack their brains how to make the ships more capable in terms of air defense, and the Admiral Grigorovich-tested compact self-contained fighting module of the Tor-M2KM SAM system may well come in handy.
The assumption is bolstered by the Central Design Bureau of Apparatus Engineering having developed a cutting-edge active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar specifically for the Buyan-M. However, a combination of an AESA radar and the Gibka short-range SAM system would be nonsense onboard the Buyan-M corvette. However, the AESA radar providing air defense side by side with the Tor-M2KM would be quite another kettle of fish.
Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly) SAM system. The problem has been publicly admitted by Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov the other day in the course of the Unified Military and Industry Materiel Delivery Reporting Day, expert Sergei Ishchenko reminds in his article published by the Svobodnaya Pressa news portal.
Before reading this report, I have never known that the Kinzhal is this bulky and heavy. Plus, I have heard it from many sources (in another topic, it was even mentioned by some of you guys), that it is plagued with many issues.
In my opinion, "navalizing" the Tor would be the best bet of the Russian Navy in this regard. On smaller vessels, one combat unit (launcher) located at the aft of the ship, and its target aquisition (the rotating one mounted atop the regular Tor system) radar mounted on the ship's main mast would be fine. Larger ships (frigates, destroyers and cruisers) could have two launchers (one facing forward, one facing aft (backwards) plus the target aquisition radar on the main mast would do the job.
This "navalized" Tor could easily replace the Kinzhal and the naval version of the Osa.
Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)
Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.
And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it...
PapaDragon wrote: 1) Awesome for Buyans (and Karakurts)
2 This part:
Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)
Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.
And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it...
Probably erros in the construction of this particular system. The system is used by many ships including retired Sovromenys (older version but still the same system).
PapaDragon wrote: 1) Awesome for Buyans (and Karakurts)
2 This part:
Severnoye’s interest in the Tor-M2KM should be noted too. The third Project 11356 frigate, named Admiral Makarov, has been unable to pass its official tests for the third year at a stretch. The principal cause is serious problems with its Shtil-1 (SA-N-12 Grizzly)
Tor is nowhere near good enough replacement for Shtil. Like comparing handgun with sniper.
And how the hell can one ship be accepted into service and even participate in freakin' war (doing second tour as we speak) while other identical ship can still be stuck with faulty AA system? I don't get it...
Indeed. When I posted this article, I was a bit puzzled about this too.
Even if we just look at their land-based counterparts (the Buk and the normal Tor respectively), it is clear as day that they are not in the same league. Tor is a SHORAD system, while the Buk/Shtil are medium range SAM systems. If they would ever want to replace the Stihl...
... That's where the Poliment-Redut would come into play, but with its quite long range (120 or so kms) it would be an absolute overkill, so the most logical step would be to outright modernize the Stihl, and more important, to correct its faults.
Russia’s seaborne air defense system to receive three types of missiles
Russia’s seaborne missile complex will be fitted out with three types of missiles unified with the S-350 Vityaz ground-based air defense system
MOSCOW, April 24. /TASS/. Russia’s Poliment-Redut seaborne missile complex will be fitted out with three types of missiles unified with the S-350 Vityaz ground-based air defense system, Almaz-Antey Aerospace Defense Group Chief Designer Pavel Sozinov said on Monday.
"The Poliment-Redut-R R&D work is focused on developing small-, medium-and intermediate-range missiles for arming the relevant ships," he said in an interview published in Natsionalnaya Oborona (National Defense) magazine.
"Poliment-Redut surface-to-air missiles have been unified with the S-350 Vityaz air defense system," the chief designer said.
All new-generation missiles are being developed with active homing heads and the inertial guidance system and feature very high maneuverable characteristics for hitting the entire range of attack means, Sozinov said.
This year, Almaz-Antey defense contractor will celebrate the 15th anniversary of its establishment.
Both the New or Not so new Shtil-1 and the New Redut VLS SAM system is supposed to take up the Medium Range Air Defense role since S-300F/FMs or S-400Fs have taken the role of long Range AD....
Why work on two different systems that fulfill the same role? Seems redundant to me unless both missiles have different roles and capabilites (as of now, it seems that both fulfill the same role as Medium Range AD Systems with similar performances (Redut on paper seems to have better performance than the older Shtil-1).....
Why not instead of working out the issues of 2 different systems... Just focus on the Redut system's issues so it then can be used to replace the older Shtils and Standardize the Medium range SAM systems of the RuN for future Vessels and Refits?
Also....
Is this really what is being proposed for the Nakhimov Refit?
Interesting... my guess is that that would be Morfei... or 9M100 as the short range missile and the small and medium sized small missiles of 9M96 and 9M96E missiles (40km and 120km max ranges respectively).
The Shtil and Redut are based on different families of missiles with different roles.
The Shtil evolved from the SA-10/SA-17 family of missiles that evolved from the SA-6 mobile medium land based SAM, while the Redut is an evolution of the smaller missiles developed for the S-400 system that have now branched off into the S-350 family of missiles.
All very capable systems evolved from previous generation mature systems.
I would suggest that the problem is with the vertical launched Shtil-1 and not the previous Shtil SAM system that has been operational since the 1980s.
And regarding those images of upgrades for Orlan class ships... I suspect fan art.
GarryB wrote:Interesting... my guess is that that would be Morfei... or 9M100 as the short range missile and the small and medium sized small missiles of 9M96 and 9M96E missiles (40km and 120km max ranges respectively).
The Shtil and Redut are based on different families of missiles with different roles.
The Shtil evolved from the SA-10/SA-17 family of missiles that evolved from the SA-6 mobile medium land based SAM, while the Redut is an evolution of the smaller missiles developed for the S-400 system that have now branched off into the S-350 family of missiles.
All very capable systems evolved from previous generation mature systems.
I would suggest that the problem is with the vertical launched Shtil-1 and not the previous Shtil SAM system that has been operational since the 1980s.
And regarding those images of upgrades for Orlan class ships... I suspect fan art.
Well i understand that they are based of different family of missiles but just seems redundant to have 2 SAM systems of similar capabilities.... Shtil-1 if i understand was advertised of having a range of 50KM while the redut's 9M96 is 40-50KM (along with the 9M100 which is most likely missiles for Point Defense cause of its Very short range).... Unless the Reduts are going to exclusively or majorily only run the troublesome 9M96E/E2 Variants....
*If thats the case then i can potentially see a Four tier AD network for Capital ships (Cruisers and Destroyers [Because Russia has an issuefetish for Gigantism])
S-400Fs (250KM), Ultra Long Range
Redut (120KM), Long Range
Shtil-1 (50KM), Medium Range
Various PD Missile Systems (OSA-MA, 9M100s) or CIWS (Palash/Kortik, AK-630M, Pantsir-S), Short Range
*And a three Tier AD network for Medium Ships (Light Destroyers [If russia will ever employ DDs like other nations XD], Frigates)
Redut (120KM), Long Range
Shtil-1 (50KM), Medium Range
Various PD Missile Systems (9M100s) or CIWS (Palash/Kortik, AK-630M, Pantsir-S), Short Range
As for Issues, At this point whenever i mention Shtil, I'd always refer to the Shtil-1 because well it is newer (not by much at this point because 2004) and more of relevance to the modern day... The Original Baseline Shtil is obselete imo hence irrelevant at this point.... I hope they sort out the issues with the Shtil-1 ASAP tho or this is going be a major setback for the AD capabilities of the current RuN...
Russian navy isn't going to use shtil. It was already mounted on grigorovitvh which were upgraded of old soviet frigate meant for Indian navy. The fact is that they knew Gorshkov will take time to be ready so they ordered some of them.
The only other ships that can use shtil are Sovromenys which use older version. They can be upgraded with VLS (Chinese are doing this) but they won't as they will be replaced by gorshkovs.
But russia's main navy anti air defence systems will be Redut (Gorshkov and Steregouchy), and future S-400F ( for destroyers and cruiser, which is still not ready for naval use) and pantsir and tor for smaller vessels.
Concerning Nakhimov, I don't think it ill get Redut which is too "small" for such a ship. The VLS can't take bigger missiles like 48N6E, just 9M96. An upgrade to S-300FM is more usefull while S-400F is not ready, at least I never heard of a naval S-400. Redut is more navale S-350 than, like some articles say, a naval S-400.
Isos wrote:Russian navy isn't going to use shtil. It was already mounted on grigorovitvh which were upgraded of old soviet frigate meant for Indian navy. The fact is that they knew Gorshkov will take time to be ready so they ordered some of them.
The only other ships that can use shtil are Sovromenys which use older version. They can be upgraded with VLS (Chinese are doing this) but they won't as they will be replaced by gorshkovs.
But russia's main navy anti air defence systems will be Redut (Gorshkov and Steregouchy), and future S-400F ( for destroyers and cruiser, which is still not ready for naval use) and pantsir and tor for smaller vessels.
Concerning Nakhimov, I don't think it ill get Redut which is too "small" for such a ship. The VLS can't take bigger missiles like 48N6E, just 9M96. An upgrade to S-300FM is more usefull while S-400F is not ready, at least I never heard of a naval S-400. Redut is more navale S-350 than, like some articles say, a naval S-400.
It was said that the Nakhimov will be equipped with S-400PMU/Fs on her refit
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