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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:55 pm

    http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...postcount=4803

    Wow, hell of a find. Official document, in Zelin's name, regarding flight hours in 2011! As we can see, the yearly creep continues.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:02 am

    Invalid Post specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:17 am

    Weird:

    http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1422117&postcount=4803

    Does this work?
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:45 am

    Yes,

    Thanks... will start looking through it now... Very Happy
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:58 am

    Interesting.

    I suspect the flight hour variations reflect the range of the aircraft and how much it is needed for use.

    The Tu-95s range means it will likely have fewer actual sorties, but over much greater distances.

    The An-2 will be busy all over Siberia delivering supplies and post and people to small outposts, while the An-124s will have fewer actual flights but over larger distances.

    Interesting that the Mi-28s flight hours are higher than for the Ka-50/52 and the other naval Kamovs.

    Could you translate the word after the Mi-8 with 120 hours please?

    I suspect that it along with the Mi-24 don't get night flying practise, which would be incorporated into the hours of the Mi-28.

    Interesting.

    Would be even more interesting to see such figures from previous years (ie actual figures rather than estimates).

    Does it say whether these are achieved figures or planned figures for 2011?

    Or are they projections for 2012?
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:59 am

    The word after Mi-8 is "Spetsyalniye" Or "Special".

    I believe those are regulation figures for 2011.

    Looks like the big 100 has been breached, good to see!



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    Post  Corrosion on Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:11 am

    I would consider 100 hrs to be an acceptable figure for fighters. Lets see 200 is considered very good around the world. So I think half than that is either spending half than that time in air with same no. of sorties as pilot with 200 hrs or flying half the number of sorties with same amount of flight time as pilot @200hrs. One has to also include type of flying as well to get the entire picture. If you have less resources, being innovative and organized can help you immensely and reduce the gap to minimal. BTW half the number of airtime does not equal pilot quality of half.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:31 am

    Actually you hit upon an important factor, that the Russian pilots don't tend to have the same flight restrictions and their air bases are not as far away from places they can train as many western forces, so a higher number of those hours by the Russian pilots will be useful hours rather than transit hours.

    The adoption of simulators include a new system developed by MIG that is actually 3D which is state of the art with no comparable systems available if you believe the advertising.

    Such simulators allow pilots to train in all sorts of conditions without using fuel or risking aircraft.

    Different locations and weather conditions can be generated and different flight emergencies can be simulated safely with risk to crew or anyone on the ground.

    To be honest the only time I have heard of crews getting 200 hours or more per year is those being overworked in combat zones or because of a shortage of transport aircraft etc.

    I believe the average for NATO during the 1980s without flight sim time was 140 hours.
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    Post  TR1 on Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:38 pm

    So these numbers seemed to be to good to be true, so I looked around, these are not 100% achieved, but intended by officials. Not all pilots saw this much. Problems not only with money but with aging planes with no resource. Once again, all the more reason to amp up production of fighters and trainers.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:09 am

    The figures are planned figures, and planned figures will be based on number of available aircraft, amount of fuel available and available instructors, and of course the weather.

    I would expect these are realistic (ie achievable) figures and not hopes or dreams, so it gives an indication that fuel is available for use and aircraft and pilots are getting significant time in the air.
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:34 am

    I would like to see much more virtual/digital trainers involved...There was a documentry that during the 90s the Aerobatic time in Moscow which was also a guard brigade of the airforce, had only one digital trainer which did not have the ability yaw, pitch or roll becuase things was so bad the management couldn't hire a mechanic to fix the moving parts.However this is not the 90s, so I expect these devices to be proliferated, saving engine wear and costs while giving the pilots more time in these in addition to the acutal flight hours they recieve on their aircraft. Once the the big man Super P stops the corruption in the armed forces by corrupt generals and employ a more youthful hierarchy things will surely progress. With medvedev as PM this move has been already initiated, and he have tirelessly stated his stance on corruption
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:38 am

    GarryB wrote:The figures are planned figures, and planned figures will be based on number of available aircraft, amount of fuel available and available instructors, and of course the weather.

    I would expect these are realistic (ie achievable) figures and not hopes or dreams, so it gives an indication that fuel is available for use and aircraft and pilots are getting significant time in the air.

    Yeah, but the issue is some pilots got anywhere from 50-70 a year, which indicates significant failure on part of the planned numbers by the AF.

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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:26 am

    It is a real tragedy to set allowances in such ways. This is leading to a social stratification of VVS where bribery and corruption are king. The Federal Law was supposed to guarantee better pay for airmen, but all it does is kick them off the train.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:13 am

    But what is the solution?

    To set up a whole new structure with the power and independence to be able to go in and deal with it at any level will not be easy or cheap and takes funds away from the core business, which is of course defending Russia.

    The other problem is that endemic corruption that leads all the way up will result in trails that cannot be followed all the way.

    It is like scandals here in government spending where someone gets in the spotlight because they got caught doing something most would see as bad and they excuse it by saying everyone does it, for instance we had a politician claiming expenses to maintain a flat in our capital city even though he never spent any time there are rented it out to a friend.

    Corruption?

    Of course, and the whole idea behind having an opposition to the government is that they should have jumped up and down waiving their knickers in the air and the guilty party should have apologised and given the money back, but the leader of the opposition said very little because he an several other senior members were doing exactly the same thing.

    The irony is that if you look at statistics the west loves to keep that in terms of honesty and integrity that New Zealand rates very highly on both counts yet we have a thoroughly corrupt system too.

    A country the size of Russia of course you will get some units running smooth with a capable force that is efficient and well run and organised and there are others that are like little kingdoms run like the mafia where you don't speak out or else.

    Problems with supply or simply people trying to make a buck might sell the fuel for flights to local businesses or use it to heat buildings in the winter, Or the weather simply might not enable normal flights. Remember if you are not cleared for flying at night or in bad weather up in the north in winter that might mean you only have a few hours a day in winter when you can actually fly, now if there are 5 of you to each plane you might only get a chance to fly once a week assuming good weather...
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    Post  gloriousfatherland on Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:51 am

    With the virtual trainers its allows less instances where the corrupt officials wouldn't be able to launder money whether in "non -existant fuels" , imaginary enginer repairs, new missiles etc. It will become harder for fraud whilst maintianing the training to the pilots by allowing similar flight times + flight time in trainer with no net increase in corruption even though more money would have been allocated to the regiments.


    Last edited by gloriousfatherland on Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : n't)
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:37 am

    A better system of accounting and accountability is required and a structure that allows squealers to squeal anonymously and without repercussion is needed... with an initial grace period when the honest who just went along with the system have an opportunity to break with tradition before people start going before judges...
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:32 pm

    gloriousfatherland wrote:With the virtual trainers its allows less instances where the corrupt officials wouldn't be able to launder money whether in "non -existant fuels" , imaginary enginer repairs, new missiles etc. It will become harder for fraud whilst maintianing the training to the pilots by allowing similar flight times + flight time in trainer with no net increase in corruption even though more money would have been allocated to the regiments.

    Simulators means even less flight hours for pilots who do not bribe their way into the cockpit. The commanders have never evenly distributed flight time and with a new financial bonus for achieving it, never will.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:29 pm

    Greetings to all readers and passerby

    Well as the title said..i would like to ask a question related to training of Russian air force pilots and..perhaps overall the state of the VVS.

    Hmm i have someone here bugging my deviant art page telling that Russian AF pilots rarely practice live firing of munitions .. nor having enough fuel to start any exercise and some old things dated back to 1991...hmm i think this might be true in 1991's after collapse of Soviet Union .. but is that true today ? hmm that's also my thoughts too.

    Well i wish Russians here can help me clearing up things ..and many thanks for any answers

    In my opinion though..considering Russians already resuming long range bomber patrol.. there is no reason to doubt that there are no fuel shortage for fighters or training.. but well i think someone who know better can clear it further to me.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:10 pm

    Average flight hours have recovered from the lows of the late 90s early 2000s.....
    The primary reason of this, is the resumption of regular fuel deliveries to airbases. This is Russia we are talking about, fuel is not scarce Wink .

    The big bombers have among the most flight hours btw, but the average for fighter pilots is/already has crossed about 100 hours yearly, and is supposed to keep increasing. Keep in mind supposed "NATO averages" are not all that themselves...

    Also you may want to remind this charter of the numerous large scale air and ground manuevers carried out by Russia in recent years, "Center", "Peace Mission", etc.
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:09 pm

    I remember one airbase that was near me a year back. The pilots took their Su-33s for a spin every 3 days or so; sometimes for what seemed like hours. Then again it was Russia's carrier air-wing, no doubt that they are among the best trained with the highest amount of flight hours.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:28 am

    Well first of all the stocks of dumb unguided weapons was enormous and even when there wasn't a huge amount of fuel available for training, there were quite a few conflicts where large amounts of ordinance was used in former Soviet states to keep the peace or deal with problems.

    These days there are still a lot of single role aircraft from the 1980s in service, but they generally have two seat operational trainers, and the integration of electronic flight simulators is drastically increased.

    Existing stocks of old dumb ordinance is still very high but money is being spent on modern precision guided weapons... which is new. Along with these new weapons are new aircraft with new electronics that allow simulated releases so real weapons only need to be occasionally used in training. For general training simulations are sufficient, so when major exercises come around some real ordinance can be used.

    I would also suggest that especially in the far flung bases that are no where near urban areas that flight time is also far more efficient. Firing ranges will be nice and close to air bases so unlike a German pilot that has to wait till they are selected to fly in Canada so they can go supersonic at low level or high levels, the average Russian pilot probably has less transit time and is able to perform flight practise in much wider ranges of his aircraft's flight envelope... including the edges.

    I would say that I would much rather be a Russian pilot right now than a US or UK or even French pilot, because although the last few decades have been hard there is money actually being spent and new equipment and weapons and aircraft entering service... including for the first time a dedicated Russian lead in fighter trainer that can simulate the flight characteristics of a wide range of aircraft and also offer weapons training.

    The operational flight trainer for the Su-35s are Su-30MKIs, they will have either Mig-29M2s or Mig-35s in single seat and two seat versions, so unlike previous operational training aircraft like the Mig-29UB these new aircraft are fully combat capable, so when not used for training they can be used for other missions.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:21 am

    Young pilots run from the Air Force

    Pilots refuse to serve in combat units, preferring civilian airlines

    Due to the imperfection of allowance Russian Air Force began to lose young staff. As told to "News" source in the Air Force, out of 80 young pilots enrolled in Air Force combat units in the past year, nearly 60 have already begun to quit, not having served in the Army for a year. Unless things change, the 2015 Army loses almost 70% of front-line pilots.

    Pilots themselves explain that they had been cheated of money and made it impossible to fly.

    - Last year when we released, we were promised that with the January 1, 2012 will receive 100 thousand rubles. Actually received about 60 thousand rubles. And now also changed the rate of pay: Now, if we do not fly 100 hours on your hands will get only 37 thousand I'd rather go to the "Aeroflot", - told the "News" Su-25 pilot, who now runs to commercial lines in the process of resigning his commission.

    He explained that 70% of the salary supplement is a pilot combatant "for special conditions of service" and the prize "for the faithful and efficient performance of official duties." They are payed only to those who carried out the allowed flight hours per year. And from January 1, 2012 this rate was 100 hours per year for tactical aviation pilots. It is so much to spend in the air, everyone who flies on fighters "Suhkoi" and "MiGs" - Su-27, MiG-29, MiG-31, etc.

    In this case, if the pilots of transport aircraft, the conducting of a flight of 2-3 hours, to meet the norm is not difficult (for IL-76, Tu-154 aircraft and other transport rate of 140-150 hours, which is 50-60 flights), the pilots -fighters who spend in the air, only 20-30 minutes for the flight to fly 100 hours needed to make 200 sorties.

    - Even if we take an hour a day is needed to fly 100 days a year. But we have no one to fly so often does, - the lieutenant.

    The commander of a squadron of bombers said to "News" that does not let the youngsters at the helm of the Air Force was led to the heavy-1990s, when it is not enough fuel and serviceable machines (often in the air regiment was no more than 2-3 serviceable aircraft). Now due poor payment of young pilots.

    - Due to the released hours senior pilots get an extra touch, sit on the qualification requirements "pilot-sniper", "pilot-instructor," etc. and accordingly their pay increases significantly - a source explained, "Izvestia".

    According to him, in February 2012 on a single Russian aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" flight hours reserved for the young ship's pilots, commanders have been rewritten in the 279th regiment of the individual. Because of this, the young do not have access to an independent flight and upon return to port was transferred from the naval aviation.

    - And this happens everywhere, - said the source, "Izvestia".

    But in addition to problems with money from January 1, 2012 were added, and everyday problems.

    - Not only have we abolished free transportation to the place of leave (except remote areas), and reduced medical care for family members, since late last year stopped issuing flight form - suits, jackets and shoes. You have to buy with your own money. With all of this can be tolerated only if the pay is high, - said the squadron commander.

    In the civilian airline pilots paid 240 thousand rubles per month (for the first lieutenant, who had just started to fly), free medical care, free flights to anywhere, including abroad, subsidized mortgages and other bonuses.

    The only way to retire young pilots - is to become unsuitable for health. In this case, they must be translated into a ground operation, and from there the pilot has the right to refuse. Currently only one third of the branches of the Central Military Clinical Hospital named after Vishnevsky air-flight Committee (WFC) have not been 28 young lieutenants.

    All in all, from the beginning of the year WFC country have not been about 300 pilots, navigators and other crew members of aircraft. Of these, about 60 military personnel - pilots a 2010-2011 release. For comparison, last year, WFC did not pass 75 people, of which the young lieutenant was only seven.

    In addition, because of the age and health is deducted each year about 15 experienced pilots. In 2015, about 350 pilots have to leave the helm because of the ultimate service life of 25 years.

    At the same flight school until 2003, released a total of 100 pilots, and in 2003 produced an average of about 270 professionals, of whom only 80 sit at the helm. The rest are appointed by the navigators, aircraft operators, etc. To teach them to drive their own aircraft, will take about two years of additional training.


    Alexei Mikhailov

    http://izvestia.ru/news/531968
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:38 pm

    Good insight up there Vlad. So now the problem lies in salary.

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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:41 pm

    I said the pay criteria was corrupt from the beginning and now look at the results. Grandfathers hog all the hours but there is nothing left when they leave. The case here might be overstated though as 37,000 roubles is still good money outside big cities. No one can expect VVS to pay commercial pilot salary and those jobs are rather limited. I never made more than half that in combat pay. The reward system needs to not be based on hours as pilots have no control over how many they get.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:02 pm

    Disgraceful but yeah, the reforms certainly did come with the withdrawal of many privileges such as free transport and some such. On the whole most of the officers and NCOs that I heard, bemoan the painful and disorganised process of reform, as well as the very real possibility of being dismissed from service, the higher physical standards and normatives that have to be adhered to, the 'by the book' discipline that they have to have over the conscript soldiers and making sure that there are no bruises on them, all the tests & drills of their skills and proffessionalism that they now have to pass and keep passing, the stricter regulations and just in general what is required and expected of them is higher now. And all this is a pain in the ass for them as it was all ignored before and everyone was used to living on easy street.

    However just about everyone looking forward to the higher salaries. The main benefits such as medical cover, free food rations (plenty of them) and so on are still there and in some areas there have been improvements too such as accomodation/housing benefits, particularly for long-serving servicemen.

    But of course if they are being cheated on the salary then it all becomes pretty untolerable though doesn't it.

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