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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    Hole

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:03 pm

    Each S-400 unit is guarded by Pantsir systems. You can´t just bomb it.

    An A-50U can easily detect targes a 400km range. There are also ground-based radars with that range. The S-400 will be fed with data from this systems.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:06 pm

    [quote="Labrador"]
    GarryB wrote:

    F-22/35 can deal with S-400 using only glider bombs GBU-39 now later GBU-53  more capable vs mobile targets it is an enormeous advantage for 3 reasons

    Glide bomb is slow,and require high flying aircraft.

    Means it can be detected from 400km, the IR seekers of the missiles has easy job, and the missiles attacking the radar can be shot down with guns, they don't need even bomb.


    Against high value targets they need to use supersonic missiles, from low altitude position, otherwise they are toast.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Hole on Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:15 pm

    The ultra-long-range 40N6 will most likely be used against "high value" targets like AWACS, ELINT and ECM aircraft. It has an active radar seeker for the terminal phase so it can hit targets at max. range.

    There is no western anti-radar missile with a range larger then 250km. Every attack on an S-400 unit with ARM´s means that the aircraft has to enter the kill zone.

    A normal cruise missile attacking an S-400 unit will be dealt with by a co-located Pantsir system.

    The result is that an enemy would need a lot of aircraft to destroy even one S-400 battery. In the meantime this aircraft would not be able to attack anything else.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:18 am

    Labrador wrote:but the dual S-400 vs F-35 very important and all advantages provide stealth fighter or bombers especialy F-22/35 which have the best RCS 
    He have calculated 
    https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2013/08/implications-of-potential-russia-china.html

    Calculations were from dr Cropp's blog. And were referring to told version of radar and  X-band only. in L-band VLO is not that V anymore, often also not L. Just O.

    With Opponent-GE or Gamma-DE F-22or F-35 can be detected  from over 200km

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA-%D0%93%D0%95
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D0%94%D0%95


    F-22/35 can deal with S-400 using only glider bombs GBU-39 now later GBU-53  more capable vs mobile targets it is an enormeous advantage for 3 reasons
    -

    you forgot to add with GPS and IR homing in area defended by Krasukha?and Rtut? + Pantrisr?
    Good luck, you gonna need it. lol1 lol1 lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_(electronic_warfare_system)
    http://nevskii-bastion.ru/rtut-bm/




    - the salvo size, the power 8 by F-22/35 no stealth have max 2 LACM LR … x 4 in theory can destroy 8 vehicles vs 2... !

    like that?




    And obviously normaly in general F-22/35 win but not sure you have awalys circumstances, chance also and don't exist perfect weapons.
    Despite it ofc stealth fighters are more expensive to build, maintain etc... and not stealth remains  good interesting and with a LACM LR attack with a missile with 400 + km range the fighter is certain to be safe

    normally against Syrian Su-17 sure. Against Su-35/Su-57 with Ks-172 (400kmrange) not really. If F-22 is far away perhaps can escape. F-35 is dead meat regardless far or near. As slow bomb truck against missile which can defeat 4000km/h targets?


    According RCS Su-57 and J-20 can' t do same vs S-400 
    Dunno about J-20 but Su-57 is not build to perform first strike. Is build to fight with F-22. F-35 is so poor that I dotn think has much chances against Su-30.




    in more don't exist Russians glider bombs.
    If you say so.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBK-500U_Drel
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    LMFS

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  LMFS on Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:01 am

    @Labrador:

    There are quite a few inaccuracies in what you said, may be you care looking older posts about guided munitions and Russian anti air systems.

    In summary, glide bombs are slow, frail, depending on the version easy to jam and with small warheads. So they are easy to intercept and not really effective against Russian IADs/EW means.

    Russia has the Grom too. Much bigger warhead

    RCS of Su-57, J-20 vs F-22 and F-35 is for who to know? In what aspect? At what frequency? What is the susceptibility to detection of each (and with what supporting assets) by means of OTH, AWACS, PCL etc?

    Sorry it is not that easy
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:10 pm

    Sorry but it is enormeous what you say you imagine well S-400 radar can't detect such target to 400 km !!! in more it is not 2400 F-35 but much more.

    The fact that you say S-400 radar like it is one thing suggests you don't know what you are talking about.

    The S-400 system was developed at a time when the B-2 and F-22 was known and the F-35 programme was already fully discussed so it was no secret.

    BTW S-300V4 can engage targets with a RCS of 0.01m... because it is used against ballistic missile warheads that can be very small and being very aerodynamic have very good natural shaping for stealth.

    F-22/35 can deal with S-400 using only glider bombs GBU-39 now later GBU-53 more capable vs mobile targets it is an enormeous advantage for 3 reasons

    NEBO will detect stealth targets at enormous distances and will allow S-400 to shoot down stealth aircraft before they get anywhere near the systems to destroy them with glide bombs.

    Modern stealth designs are designed to evade high frequency short radar wavelengths... NEBO is a VHF frequency radar...

    I add only USAF use GBU-39 F-35C have AGM-154 with longer range but only 2 by bird F-35B don't have main Reason USMC use these birds mainly to support ground troops so not specialist for SEAD missions but all have later GBU-53 with Block 4 for 2021 -22

    Current Pantsir has 12 ready to launch missiles with a range of 20km... the version with the small missiles can carry 4 small missiles per tube, so that is 48 ready to fire missiles per vehicle... with 6 vehicles in a battery that means just one battery of Pantsir protecting the S-400 will have 288 missiles ready to fire... plus 12 twin barrel 30mm cannon able to fire 2,500rpm each.


    According RCS Su-57 and J-20 can' t do same vs S-400 in more don't exist Russians glider bombs.

    Russia has plenty of gliding bomb types, and the Su-57 has more internal space to carry air to ground weapons than the F-35 or F-22, but the west does not really have any decent IADS.... except on their ships...

    Even S-300 is a threat to F-35... look at the acrobatics the Israelis and Americans have been going through to keep S-300s away from Iran and Syria...

    Another aspect you have ignored.... these systems are actually mobile and can be moved in 5 minutes time from the decision to move and can move tens or even hundreds of kms and then set back up and be operational within about 10-15 minutes of stopping... and the Pantsir system can operate as it drives along with them... it can fire on the move and destroy air threats to the unit without having to stop or leapfrog operating from short stops...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:13 pm

    Hole wrote:Each S-400 unit is guarded by Pantsir systems. You can´t just bomb it.

    An A-50U can easily detect targes a 400km range. There are also ground-based radars with that range. The S-400 will be fed with data from this systems.


    To be exact not all  Rgts with S-400 in general 2 Bns ( in more 0 to 3 S-300 Bns ) have Pantsir Bn with 6 TELs and the other main mission of this vehicle is to  to defend S-400 also S-300
    when they move and ofc their radars is not ready installed etc... Pantsir can be immedialy in action him


    Bud i am not sure about your opinion for saturation attack  i have Pantsir S1 can deal/ engaged 2 targets simltaneously each F-35 have 8 bombs … 

    @ GarryB the number of missiles ready is not good and never see possible in the small tubes 4 SAMs ! BTW change nothing have you a link ?
    In more you don't have good RCs for USAF stealth much more better.

    Number of simultaneously tracked targets - 2 pieces in the RL- and opto-electronic channels (. ZRPK arr 2007)
    Perhaps firing two missiles at targets 1 
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-558.html
              
    In more again more F-35 which have the among the best electronic system can jamm Pantsir radar. 

    And justely for all how many time need a S-300/400 Bn to be ready ? and same to releoad the TEL not easy missiles do up to 2 tons..  eventualy if is possible question also for S-300VM/V4 
    with enormeous missiles ?


    Last edited by Labrador on Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:02 pm; edited 4 times in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:25 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    you forgot to add with GPS and IR homing in area defended by Krasukha?and Rtut? + Pantrisr?
    Good luck, you gonna need it.   lol1  lol1  lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_(electronic_warfare_system)
    http://nevskii-bastion.ru/rtut-bm/









    Hehe Smile but ofc i can't provide all scenarios etc...mainly according radar range and RCS to have more you need to go to Ashuluk or Nellis AB Very Happy 

    There also difference coz with some bands some radars can sometimes detect stealth to long range but can't targeted … 
    in addition a EW fighter as EA-18G, Tornado ECR  with others can do the job USA use Wild Weasel fighters since 50 years F-105 after F-4G they know do it is the best trained Air Services coz Soviet/Russians have 
    SAMs and very good and not since yesterday… 

    And not true anti-radar but AGM-158, Taurus, SCALP-EG very stealth which have a superior range and excellent accurary 1 m for the 2 lasts are perfectly able to destroy S-400

    Now everyone has his own opinion but don' t exist perfect weapons and since always it is the sword and the cuirass
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Hole on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:33 pm

    Even if the F-35 had 16 bombs, it can´t come into position to drop them because it will be destroyed before.

    AGM-159, Taurus and so on are not anti-radar missiles. They are slow flying cruise missiles.

    The west can´t just accompany an F-22 or F-35 with a jammer plane. The russian ELINT systems would find it easily. And the whole western "stealth" story would collapse. If this planes are invisible, why would they Need support?

    One Pantsir vehicle can engage 4 targets at a time. There missiles are very fast so there will be no problem shooting down a large number of cruise missiles.

    Like i said before, to take out one battery of S-400 (even S-300) you need a lot of planes and a lot of weapons which will hamper any attack on offensive weapons. And the enemy will loose a lot of jets.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:22 am


    Bud i am not sure about your opinion for saturation attack i have Pantsir S1 can deal/ engaged 2 targets simltaneously each F-35 have 8 bombs …

    Each Pantsir S1 vehicle can control 8 missiles and engage four targets at once... three with radar tracking and one with optical tracking, so with 6 vehicles, that means 24 targets engaged with 48 missiles at a time.

    The missiles are very high speed so engagement times are relatively short.

    @ GarryB the number of missiles ready is not good and never see possible in the small tubes 4 SAMs ! BTW change nothing have you a link ?





    And how can having four times more ready to fire missiles not effect its performance against a swarm attack?

    Number of simultaneously tracked targets - 2 pieces in the RL- and opto-electronic channels (. ZRPK arr 2007)
    Perhaps firing two missiles at targets 1

    Three targets tracked and engage with two missiles per target using radar, and one target tracked with EO and engaged with two missiles.

    In more again more F-35 which have the among the best electronic system can jamm Pantsir radar.

    All 6 of the vehicles on the ground in the battery?

    They can engage in optical mode too, and also track a jamming target and engage that without using their own radar.

    BTW how stealthy are they if they are jamming radar?

    And justely for all how many time need a S-300/400 Bn to be ready ? and same to releoad the TEL not easy missiles do up to 2 tons.. eventualy if is possible question also for S-300VM/V4
    with enormeous missiles ?

    For a battery to need to reload it has probably already destroyed 50 enemy aircraft at least, so actually packing up and moving under cover of other batteries would probably be standard procedure...

    There also difference coz with some bands some radars can sometimes detect stealth to long range but can't targeted …
    in addition a EW fighter as EA-18G, Tornado ECR with others can do the job USA use Wild Weasel fighters since 50 years F-105 after F-4G they know do it is the best trained Air Services coz Soviet/Russians have
    SAMs and very good and not since yesterday…

    Are you trying to say that the Russians are idiots... they have ignored the development and entering into service of western wild weasel aircraft and just assume that their SAMs will be good enough because the people who make them say so?

    Russia has been working on radars to detect stealth targets for the last 30 years... the Su-35 has a wing mounted L band AESA radar specifically for the purpose of detecting stealth targets.

    A stealth target is not invisible... if you know where to look because a long wave radar has detected something in the air that does not appear on other radars then you can be sure it is probably a stealth aircraft... very high power scanning in the airspace where the stealth aircraft is detected, while looking for a tiny radar return should give you an accurate enough position to allow engagement...

    Like i said before, to take out one battery of S-400 (even S-300) you need a lot of planes and a lot of weapons which will hamper any attack on offensive weapons. And the enemy will loose a lot of jets.

    Exactly... no defence is perfect... but S-400s and also S-300s plus an IADS means that where before a group of maybe 12 aircraft... two with missiles and the rest and fighter air cover and jamming, and fuel etc could take out an S-200 battery, the introduction of an IADS, plus S-300 or S-400 means you need 10 or 100 times that and even then victory is not assured... you say the attackers can use tactics... so can the defenders... with an IADS all sensors and weapons are used together as a team... so a radar near the coast detects an incoming low RCS cruise missile, its position and general path can be calculated and broadcast to air defence units... a MANPAD battery in the area could be put on alert with its own radar and a dozen Igla-S operators with cuing to tell them which direction the threat is coming from... they could easily shoot down a couple of incoming threats before they get anywhere near the actual target...

    During mission planning for the cruise missiles path it is unlikely they would have a mobile MANPAD unit marked on their maps to fly around... and even if they did who is to say it has not moved 20km to a different place for the night?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Arrow on Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:39 am

    EBO will detect stealth targets at enormous distances and will allow S-400 to shoot down stealth aircraft before they get anywhere near the systems to destroy them with glide bombs. Modern stealth designs are designed to evade high frequency short radar wavelengths... NEBO is a VHF frequency radar... wrote:

    The S-400 must see the target on its engagement radar in terminal phase to shoot it down. Missile 48N6DM use TVM guidance.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:14 pm

    Labrador wrote:
    Hehe Smile but ofc i can't provide all scenarios etc...mainly according radar range and RCS to have more you need to go to Ashuluk or Nellis AB Very Happy 

    True,we can only speculate with available data.

    There also difference coz with some bands some radars can sometimes detect stealth to long range but can't targeted … 
    Wavelength might not be accurate enough but you have DSP for this.  And even if not you can show where to shoot missiles. Close enough they can find their way.  



    n addition a EW fighter as EA-18G, Tornado ECR  with others can do the job USA use Wild Weasel fighters since 50 years F-105 after F-4G they know do it is the best trained Air Services coz Soviet/Russians have SAMs and very good and not since yesterday… 

    Russian Karsuhka "switched off" US AWACS over Syria. Are trying you to say EA-18 has stronger radar then AWACS? BTW if you fly close enough you might lose  not only guided weapons but also fried pilot.


    And not true anti-radar but AGM-158, Taurus, SCALP-EG very stealth which have a superior range and excellent accuracy 1 m for the 2 lasts are perfectly able to destroy S-400

    1)  all above missiles as far as I can see (wiki) use GPS, inertial and infrared final homing. EW switches off GPS/homing. In order to correct inertial navigation missile must raise altitude.

    2) once altitude is raised they are "easy meat" to shoot down, especially that they are slow

    3) S-400 has many different missiles to deal with all threats. CMs too. But even if not they are always protected by Pantsirs

    4) Pantsirs can intercept easily BM missiles,  why not slower and much larger  CMs? BTW also have optical tracking channels


    here you have Syrian list of missiles /bombs struck by Pantirs (olde versions S-1)







    Now everyone has his own opinion but don' t exist perfect weapons and since always it is the sword and the cuirass

    You see, there is small difference however. West is building weapons all over the world. Russia is optimizing weapons to counter western aggression. So taks is easier.
    The best proof is that neither Israel not US illegal coalition dared to bomb Syrian govt since S-300.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:37 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Labrador wrote:but the dual S-400 vs F-35 very important and all advantages provide stealth fighter or bombers especialy F-22/35 which have the best RCS 
    He have calculated 
    https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2013/08/implications-of-potential-russia-china.html

    Calculations were from dr Cropp's blog. And were referring to told version of radar and  X-band only. in L-band VLO is not that V anymore, often also not L. Just O.

    With Opponent-GE or Gamma-DE F-22or F-35 can be detected  from over 200km

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA-%D0%93%D0%95
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D0%94%D0%95


    F-22/35 can deal with S-400 using only glider bombs GBU-39 now later GBU-53  more capable vs mobile targets it is an enormeous advantage for 3 reasons
    -

    you forgot to add with GPS and IR homing in area defended by Krasukha?and Rtut? + Pantrisr?
    Good luck, you gonna need it.   lol1  lol1  lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_(electronic_warfare_system)
    http://nevskii-bastion.ru/rtut-bm/




    - the salvo size, the power 8 by F-22/35 no stealth have max 2 LACM LR … x 4 in theory can destroy 8 vehicles vs 2... !

    like that?




    And obviously normaly in general F-22/35 win but not sure you have awalys circumstances, chance also and don't exist perfect weapons.
    Despite it ofc stealth fighters are more expensive to build, maintain etc... and not stealth remains  good interesting and with a LACM LR attack with a missile with 400 + km range the fighter is certain to be safe

    normally against Syrian Su-17 sure. Against Su-35/Su-57 with Ks-172 (400kmrange) not really. If F-22 is far away perhaps can escape. F-35 is dead meat regardless far or near. As slow bomb truck against missile which can defeat 4000km/h targets?


    According RCS Su-57 and J-20 can' t do same vs S-400 
    Dunno about J-20 but Su-57 is not build to perform first strike. Is build to fight with F-22. F-35 is so poor that I dotn think has much chances against Su-30.




    in more don't exist Russians glider bombs.
    If you say so.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBK-500U_Drel
    Your not honnest in your answer

    This bomb is not in service and less good than US which have range efficient vs S-400 in more even if Su-57 have he need a bomb with double range coz stealth it is weakness ...

    In addition for Su-30 i guess SM vs F-35 lol ! 

    For Nebo-M yet exist few and he have a 400 km range vs 1 m2 do 60 km vs F-22/35 ! lol change nothing for a SEAD mission

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:43 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Labrador wrote:but the dual S-400 vs F-35 very important and all advantages provide stealth fighter or bombers especialy F-22/35 which have the best RCS 
    He have calculated 
    https://manglermuldoon.blogspot.com/2013/08/implications-of-potential-russia-china.html

    Calculations were from dr Cropp's blog. And were referring to told version of radar and  X-band only. in L-band VLO is not that V anymore, often also not L. Just O.

    With Opponent-GE or Gamma-DE F-22or F-35 can be detected  from over 200km

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA-%D0%93%D0%95
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D0%94%D0%95


    F-22/35 can deal with S-400 using only glider bombs GBU-39 now later GBU-53  more capable vs mobile targets it is an enormeous advantage for 3 reasons
    -

    you forgot to add with GPS and IR homing in area defended by Krasukha?and Rtut? + Pantrisr?
    Good luck, you gonna need it.   lol1  lol1  lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krasukha_(electronic_warfare_system)
    http://nevskii-bastion.ru/rtut-bm/




    - the salvo size, the power 8 by F-22/35 no stealth have max 2 LACM LR … x 4 in theory can destroy 8 vehicles vs 2... !

    like that?




    And obviously normaly in general F-22/35 win but not sure you have awalys circumstances, chance also and don't exist perfect weapons.
    Despite it ofc stealth fighters are more expensive to build, maintain etc... and not stealth remains  good interesting and with a LACM LR attack with a missile with 400 + km range the fighter is certain to be safe

    normally against Syrian Su-17 sure. Against Su-35/Su-57 with Ks-172 (400kmrange) not really. If F-22 is far away perhaps can escape. F-35 is dead meat regardless far or near. As slow bomb truck against missile which can defeat 4000km/h targets?


    According RCS Su-57 and J-20 can' t do same vs S-400 
    Dunno about J-20 but Su-57 is not build to perform first strike. Is build to fight with F-22. F-35 is so poor that I dotn think has much chances against Su-30.




    in more don't exist Russians glider bombs.
    If you say so.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PBK-500U_Drel
    Your not honnest in your answer

    This bomb is not in service in more less good than US even LS-6 Chines serie used by J-20... i am not a roockie dude..maybe worck with other but not with me  Cool

    GBU-39 later 53 have range efficient vs S-400 in more even if Su-57 have he need a bomb with double range coz stealth it is weakness ...

    In addition for Su-30 i guess SM vs F-35 lol ! 

    For Nebo-M yet exist few and he have a 400 km range vs 1 m2 do 60 km vs F-35 again less vs F-22 ! change nothing for SEAD mission
    In addition now some say F-35 is also good than F-22 for frontal RCS...


    Last edited by Labrador on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:44 pm

    And you are not honest in your statements

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:50 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:And you are not honest in your statements
    ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Labrador on Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:17 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:You see, there is small difference however. West is building weapons all over the world. Russia is optimizing weapons to counter western aggression. So taks is easier.
    The best proof is that neither Israel not US illegal coalition dared to bomb Syrian govt since S-300.
    You need to point… so i see rather contrary with Crimea in 2014...  Laughing fortunaly we protect Baltic States and do the Job but only vs ISIS which is the bad guy not as Russian …  and not Syrian people which have the right to freedom and to vote freely Cool and soon if the need is there with the dictator in more Syrians crew are not yet operationnals need some months but in training but good try dude  lol1


    For your comparison for fighters  i remenber you also NATO pilots fly minimum 170 - 180h/year Russian 120 some years ago max 50 hours …  in more US Air services have 7 Agressors Sqns ! and private companies provide thousands of flight hours and dozens of birds Rusian AF don't have a true agressor Sqn.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:39 pm

    Labrador wrote:

    For Nebo-M yet exist few and he have a 400 km range vs 1 m2 do 60 km vs F-35 again less vs F-22 ! change nothing for SEAD mission
    In addition now some say F-35 is also good than F-22 for frontal RCS...

    Should factor dependance of RCS toward wavelength i think. 0.001 and 0.0001 in X-band is NOT that value in VHF.
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    GarryB

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:01 am

    The S-400 must see the target on its engagement radar in terminal phase to shoot it down. Missile 48N6DM use TVM guidance.

    Do you even know what TVM even is?

    The S-400 directs the missile it has launched towards the target and the radar in the missile turns on... as it gets closer it uses the radar in the missile to find and track the target for the interception because even though the radar in the missile is small it is also much much closer to the target which makes it better able to find and track the target for the interception...

    Look at any radar chart showing detection ranges and almost all radars can see stealthy targets at less than 30km or so... it is at long range that they normally have problems... using TVM and some from of long range detection that tells you roughly where the stealth target is you can generally get your missile close enough to find the stealthy target on its own...

    3) S-400 has many different missiles to deal with all threats. CMs too. But even if not they are always protected by Pantsirs

    4) Pantsirs can intercept easily BM missiles, why not slower and much larger CMs? BTW also have optical tracking channels

    Not only Pantsir... often TOR as well.

    But the real point is that being part of an IADS to get to the S-400 you would likely have to fly over all sorts of other SAM sites... mobile systems like BUK and Pantsir and Verba that will be linked in to the IADS so they will know what is coming and can get ready to attack it as it goes by...

    This bomb is not in service and less good than US which have range efficient vs S-400 in more even if Su-57 have he need a bomb with double range coz stealth it is weakness ...

    Russia has quite a few glide bombs, what they don't have is an enemy with an IADS that they have to penetrate... NATO will be destroyed with ICBMs and soon IRBMs... and NATO does not have an IADS that would require serious fire power to penetrate...

    For Nebo-M yet exist few and he have a 400 km range vs 1 m2 do 60 km vs F-22/35 ! lol change nothing for a SEAD mission

    So you think the fraction of a metre RCS for F-22 and F-35 in Ku band is the same as in VHF band radar frequencies?

    The only way either of those aircraft could evade detection from NEBO would be to fly at very low altitude... which means glide bombs are out of the question...

    GBU-39 later 53 have range efficient vs S-400 in more even if Su-57 have he need a bomb with double range coz stealth it is weakness ...

    America does not have any weapon that could get past TOR or Pantsir to get to S-400.

    America and NATO does not have anything like TOR or Pantsir to stop weapons from Su-57... which would most likely use the new model AS-11 ARM with a range of 250km.

    You need to point… so i see rather contrary with Crimea in 2014...

    The people of Crimea voted to leave the Ukraine and rejoin the Russian federation... that is not aggression... that is democracy.

    If the people of Crimea objected to Russian "occupation" there would be no way Russia could occupy the place without permission.

    fortunaly we protect Baltic States and do the Job

    You are welcome to the Baltic States... they were more nazis than the Germans... suspect they still are... you can have them.

    ISIS which is the bad guy not as Russian … and not Syrian people which have the right to freedom and to vote freely Cool and soon if the need is there with the dictator in more Syrians crew are not yet operationnals need some months but in training but good try dude

    Hard to follow what you are saying here... but it is the west that has decided that Russia is more of an enemy than ISIS is in Syria, which is why Russia needs to realise the west is not its friend... the west would rather see Syria like Libya so it can steal its oil while Syrian children are tortured and have their heads cut off by ISIS... because oil is important to the west and poor people are not important.

    For your comparison for fighters i remenber you also NATO pilots fly minimum 170 - 180h/year Russian 120 some years ago max 50 hours

    More than half of NATO flight times are flying to and from flight ranges where they can make sonic booms without upsetting the greenies... hardly valuable use of aviation fuel.

    in more US Air services have 7 Agressors Sqns ! and private companies provide thousands of flight hours and dozens of birds Rusian AF don't have a true agressor Sqn.

    US aggressor sqns fly US aircraft using bogus tactics they think the Russians might use... up until Syria and no western "expert" would admit Russia could have done what it has done... western experts have been repeatedly surprised and outthought by the Russian military...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Arrow on Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:33 am

    he S-400 directs the missile it has launched towards the target and the radar in the missile turns on... as it gets closer it uses the radar in the missile to find and track the target for the interception because even though the radar in the missile is small it is also much much closer to the target which makes it better able to find and track the target for the interception... Look at any radar chart showing detection ranges and almost all radars can see stealthy targets at less than 30km or so... it is at long range that they normally have problems... using TVM and some from of long range detection that tells you roughly where the stealth target is you can generally get your missile close enough to find the stealthy target on its own... wrote:


    48N6DM has no radar and ARH is not guided. Only 9M96 has active homing. There are no missiles on S-400 systems. The S-400 needs a radar engagement to guide the missiles. TVM is used in the terminal phase. Previously, the missile is directed by command. Read SOC posts.
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Singular_Transform on Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:59 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    he S-400 directs the missile it has launched towards the target and the radar in the missile turns on... as it gets closer it uses the radar in the missile to find and track the target for the interception because even though the radar in the missile is small it is also much much closer to the target which makes it better able to find and track the target for the interception... Look at any radar chart showing detection ranges and almost all radars can see stealthy targets at less than 30km or so... it is at long range that they normally have problems... using TVM and some from of long range detection that tells you roughly where the stealth target is you can generally get your missile close enough to find the stealthy target on its own... wrote:


    48N6DM has no radar and ARH is not guided. Only 9M96 has active homing. There are no missiles on S-400 systems. The S-400 needs a radar engagement to guide the missiles. TVM is used in the terminal phase. Previously, the missile is directed by command. Read SOC posts.

    But the radar that guide the missile doesn't need to be the same that tracking the target.

    The NEBO-M can feed the data to the flap lid, and that can guide the missile, and the terminal phase it illuminate the target + collect the data from missile + command the missile to the target with the information from the NEBO-M and big bird.

    The radar in the missile have better characteristic in the last ten km compared to the flap lid used as radar illuminator .
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    Stealthflanker

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Oct 27, 2018 12:56 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:

    The NEBO-M can feed the data to the flap lid, and that can guide the missile, and the terminal phase it illuminate the target + collect the data from missile + command the missile to the target with the information from the NEBO-M and big bird.

    The radar in the missile have better characteristic in the last ten km compared to the flap lid used as radar illuminator .

    what do you mean "Radar in the missile" ?

    and since we all know both SAGG and TVM are offshoots from SARH, it definitely needs a radar that work in the SAME band as what the seeker use to provide illumination.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:39 am

    Labrador wrote:
    You need to point… so i see rather contrary with Crimea in 2014...  Laughing

    What reunification of illegally Ukraine occupied Russian Crimea has to do with S-300? dunno dunno dunno




    fortunaly we protect Baltic States and do the Job but only vs ISIS which is the bad guy

    Syrian regime and French democracy. Especially when western specops are directly managing ISIS growth and training. bwayahaha I like your British sense of humor. BTW It is easy to protect baltics since nobody seem to want to live in empty and impoverished lands.



    For your comparison for fighters  i remenber you also NATO pilots fly minimum 170 - 180h/year Russian 120 some years ago max 50 hours … 
    Minimum? doyou have officla data form2018?
    As for Russians "couple years ago" max and 50 avg? can you provide soruces other then Ukrop times? Interested.




    in more US Air services have 7 Agressors Sqns ! and private companies provide thousands of flight hours and dozens of birds Rusian AF don't have a true agressor Sqn.

    Im impressed but with scale of spending taxpayer money but how does it relate to real efficiency? any real life profs ? so far US pilots didnt show real skills outside Top Gun form 1986.
    In Syria they were avoiding Russian fighters. Other HATO didn even come closer hundredths of kilometers thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:30 am

    Labrador wrote:Your not honnest in your answer


    can you please rephrase your thought that I can understand the meaning? thanks



    This bomb is not in service in more less good than US even LS-6 Chines serie used by J-20...

    what is more less good? means sam good as? or?


    GBU-39 later 53 have range efficient vs S-400 in more even if Su-57 have he need a bomb with double range coz stealth it is weakness ...

    Did you read at least tried with understanding what I've posted? Su-57 is not optimized for first strike.  It is optimized to kill intruders. Actually F-35 characteristics make its life easier ;-)


    .........................................F-35..................................Su-57
    Service ceiling:...................15,200m.............................20,000m
    range (internal fuel).............2,2000km...........................3,500km
    max speed .........................1,600km/h..........................2,600km/h
    /cruise speed.......................?.......................................1,700km/h
    TVC----------------------------2D......................................3D
    Takeoff strip.......................800m?.................................350m
    AAM range (max)................120km.................................200km (RVV-BD 180)


    Su-57 radar has L-band too so there is no stealth for it.


    BTW in book below  I've seen an example about D-41 dong feng missile:

    0.002 m2 RCS in X-band, but is a very non-stealthy 0.6 m2 in VHF...

    Googlebooks: Surveliance in Action.


    In addition for Su-30 i guess SM vs F-35 lol ! 
    Su-30SM makes F-35 dead meat in every situation. F-35 i good only as silent bomb truck. As soon as it can be seen is dead. No decent flight abilities, speed  on level of training aircraft.

    You think why no Isreali F-35 took off since S-300 are in Syrian govt hands?



    For Nebo-M yet exist few and he have a 400 km range vs 1 m2 do 60 km vs F-35 again less vs F-22 ! change nothing for SEAD mission
    In addition now some say F-35 is also good than F-22 for frontal RCS...
    [/quote]

    in which band? You seem to have cognitive problems. RCS is band related.  





    http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=27825
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    Isos

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:21 am

    in more US Air services have 7 Agressors Sqns ! and private companies provide thousands of flight hours and dozens of birds Rusian AF don't have a true agressor Sqn.

    US is lacking new pilots actually. They can't recruit what they need probably because most people know they will bomb strangers that are not a threat to US.

    All the other nato states are afraid of russia to do anythong on their own. It's always "article 5 of nato... blah blah blah...". When Trump said article 5 doesn't mean direct help anymore they were like petrified.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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