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    Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

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    cracker

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    Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  cracker on Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:27 pm

    Hi

    I want to compare the russian army weapons and rest of the world. In my opinion, russia has the best weapons, simply. USA is close second, and 1st in specific domains (sniper rifles). German army probably has great weapons too, chinese army is not bad.

    I only want to talk about current military/police weapons in service.

    In all honesty, is there any better group of weapons for infantry than those used by russia? I can't think of better alternatives

    AK-74M: this basic rifleman's rifle is simply foolproof, modulable enough, and perfectly accurate and powerful. Unmatched reliability and durability. AK-74M can be made into sexy FS rifles with more and more aftermarket parts, more and more are made in russia. Basically all spetsnaz of MVD or FSB currently use modded AK-74M rifles, and light mods are used more and more in army "elite" corps, like recon troops of army, or VDV. Probably the best service rifle in use worldwide, and fits perfectly russian army.

    PKM/PKP: this light GPMG is always compared to the M240 FN MAG and more rarely the MG3. Everyone has his opinion, but all recognize it's at a place between 1st and 3rd... To me, it's 1st, lightweight, foolproof and more reliable than others (others are reliable like rocks too, but...), the cartridge is kick ass, and simply you can't make any better MG than what kalashnikov did on this one, only you can modernize and improve it. PKP might be the best LMG worldwide, more even than current SF weapons like MK48.

    SVD/SVDS: this multipurpose rifle is basically the most common and used sniper rifle of russian army. in the last 20 years, many specialised elite units aquired different systems for their needs, sometimes western rifles, mostly bolt actions. Still, the SVD remains a top squad support weapon, and a fine specialised sniper rifle. PSO-1 scope is reputed to be excellent, but the x4 power limits somehow the potential of the SVD.

    RPG-7: Often laughed in western medias recently due to guerilla wars and problems with effectiveness, the RPG-7 in russian army are not dirty clones you can find in middle east, and more especially the russian dotation rockets are top notch. Remains the best pocket artillery available to a group of infantry to me, good weight, large variety of ammo, and quite accurate. The anti tank capability is still correct with modern rockets : 550mm for standard dotation PG-7VL and 750mm for specialised tandem PG-7VR.


    Add to this weapons in russian army that have no equivalent worldwide:

    9x39 compact weapons series, from AS val to VSK-94, supressed or not, these weapons are widely in service in all branches of russian army, and fill a niche that no other weapon worldwide could fill so well.

    KORD heavy machinegun, seems like russia developped the best HMG ever, and is puting it in service in great numbers. Hell, even the older NSV is a great weapon, but much less accurate and durable than KORD. Rest of the world with M2HB and DSHKM look retarded of 1 century. I could even mention the 14.5mm KPV, but it's almost always a vehicle weapon, so.. not really interesting for this topic

    AN-94 and AEK-971, these weapons, both of which are in limited service (more the AN) are unique assault rifles with extreme potential and improvement over classic rifles, the latter will certainly replace the AK-74M in massive quantity in 10-15 years.

    Russian SMGs are great weapons too, russian pistols are great, PYA and GSH-18 are fantastic service pistols, APS is unique, makarov is still good, PSS silent pistol is a great weapon unique in its genre. Not to mention SPS Sr-1 high power 9mm pistol.

    The russian underbarel grenade lauchers: GP-25/30/30M/34, caseless 40mm devices, compact... Just uncredible. This GL is simply the best, and the grenades for it (old VOG 25 or modern current issue (can't remember the names)) packs always more explosive than western 40x43mm grenades. in russian army, you can have up to 1 GP-25 for every 2 men... Simply unrivalled.



    What has the world better to offter? M4 carbines? FAMAS? lol... What would you take for undercover mission, SR-3M special rifle in 9x39mm or M4 with supressor and paltry 5.56 subsonic rounds?

    What pistols could rival PYA or GSH-18? Glocks? Already proven to be inferior.

    What semi auto rifle could rival the SVD? There might be more chances here, M14 scopped/ M21, M110 are nice rifles

    What SMG can rival the AEK-918, SR-2, PP-2000, PP-9 Kedr, PP-19 vytyaz/bizon in their respective niche?

    Would you take any other service rifle over AK-74M?


    In my opinion, the russian infantry platoon offers the best firepower you can find, maybe rivaled only by US army.

    For special purpose weapons, russia n°1.
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    runaway

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  runaway on Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:15 pm

    I have used both AKM and H&K36, and the G36 is a very very nice weapon, forced to chose i would go for a new G36 then a 40 year old AK-74.
    As for RPG, am a gunner on Carl Gustav, 84mm recoiles. Its in service in 40 countries and a truckload of different ammo is availeble. Still, i would go for a new RPG if a could, a RPG-29.
    Heavy MG, often on vehicles, i dont think the M2HB is much inferior to the Kord.
    Ordinary MG´s the PKM is as good as KSP-58.
    Pistols, little differens.
    Special weapons, iam not to good to judge on them.

    Overall i think russian weapons have an edge the western dont have, but its time the AK-12 come out with better optics, aimpoint style, better ergonomics and better accuracy on 200-400m.

    Western weapons are often made for the firing range, the russian ones are made for war.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:54 am

    M2HB is rather old and if you want to reset the head space and timing every time you replace a barrel you are welcome to do so.

    I have seen video of both being fired and Kord appears to be much more accurate... even from a bipod!

    Don't forget automatic grenade launchers... the AGS-30 is half the weight of the AGS-17... the AGS-17 is 18kgs plus 12 kgs for the tripod. The AGS-30 is 16kgs including tripod.

    With the new more aerodynamic ammo it can reach 2.2km in range and as the US has finally worked out such grenades rely on the sides for fragmentation so even a smaller calibre grenade like the 30mm Soviet grenade can have a better fragmentation pattern than a western grenade of larger calibre (40mm).

    Just as interesting, the under barrel 40mm grenades of the Russian Army, have since the late 1970s had an air burst grenade. the US has spent a small fortune on a 25mm grenade launcher and grenade where the launcher has a ballistic computer and laser range finder and each grenade has a very precise and very expensive timing mechanism so the main weapon finds the target lases the range, calculates the time to target and deducts a fraction of a second so the round will explode above the target... it may never get into service and the precision of the timers in the grenades makes them very expensive, but the air burst capability makes them 5-10 times more effective than impact grenades that waste most of their fragments straight into the ground.

    the 40mm VOG-25P has a small charge in its nose that blasts the grenade back up into the air when it hits the ground and starts a very short fuse that detonates the main charge in the grenade a fraction of a second later. The main charge generally goes off at 1.5-2 metres above the ground.

    No precision timing, very cheap grenades, widely in service now...

    BTW some of the new Russian Sniper Rifles are every bit as accurate as western rifles.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:M2HB is rather old and if you want to reset the head space and timing every time you replace a barrel you are welcome to do so.

    I have seen video of both being fired and Kord appears to be much more accurate... even from a bipod!

    Don't forget automatic grenade launchers... the AGS-30 is half the weight of the AGS-17... the AGS-17 is 18kgs plus 12 kgs for the tripod. The AGS-30 is 16kgs including tripod.

    With the new more aerodynamic ammo it can reach 2.2km in range and as the US has finally worked out such grenades rely on the sides for fragmentation so even a smaller calibre grenade like the 30mm Soviet grenade can have a better fragmentation pattern than a western grenade of larger calibre (40mm).

    Just as interesting, the under barrel 40mm grenades of the Russian Army, have since the late 1970s had an air burst grenade. the US has spent a small fortune on a 25mm grenade launcher and grenade where the launcher has a ballistic computer and laser range finder and each grenade has a very precise and very expensive timing mechanism so the main weapon finds the target lases the range, calculates the time to target and deducts a fraction of a second so the round will explode above the target... it may never get into service and the precision of the timers in the grenades makes them very expensive, but the air burst capability makes them 5-10 times more effective than impact grenades that waste most of their fragments straight into the ground.

    the 40mm VOG-25P has a small charge in its nose that blasts the grenade back up into the air when it hits the ground and starts a very short fuse that detonates the main charge in the grenade a fraction of a second later. The main charge generally goes off at 1.5-2 metres above the ground.

    No precision timing, very cheap grenades, widely in service now..
    .

    BTW some of the new Russian Sniper Rifles are every bit as accurate as western rifles.

    ...But, but according to Hollywood, Russians are just stupid, incompetent barbarians! It's interesting that the Russians developed bouncing betty/air-burst grenades and they had them for nearly 40 years while US failed to develop a white-elephant air-burst grenade launcher (but to be fair the South Koreans, and Chinese failed to put their similar systems in to active service), it's just like how the Russian tanks had gun launched missiles, and autoloaders for roughly 50 years and US tanks still don't have neither of them, or that Apache helicopter CAS aircraft still to this day do not have bullet proof glass designed to defeat small arms fire (let alone autocannon fire).

    BTW GarryB, is their any news or evidence of the next generation of Russian rifle grenade launchers, and or new ammunition?

    Asf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:26 pm

    it's just like how the Russian tanks had gun launched missiles

    as well as air-burst HE-FRAG rounds
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    NationalRus

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  NationalRus on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:37 pm

    best in the world is a naive childish term, all depends on diffrent sectors and characteristics you are looking for. just shortly to say if i would need to arm a field army i would probably or better to say most likely go for modern AK versions or arms based on AK operating system. if i would need to equip a urban force, like Police, SWAT, special units for urban combat i would most likely go with some western or israeli models

    btw. the reliability issue is over used, modern even M16/M4 veriants and all arms based on ther operating system hold up very well in harsh enviroment, the famous saying that a littel of dirt and ther are out of order is total BS, only vietnam era M16's and the infamous british L85A1 can service this myth

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:43 pm

    i dont think the M2HB is much inferior to the Kord

    Kord is much lighter and more accurate plus it is able to fire even from bipod (accuracy of fire with a bipod is similar to M2HB/NSV)


    forced to chose i would go for a new G36 then a 40 year old AK-74.

    Why not a new one? Smile


     Still, i would go for a new RPG if a could, a RPG-29.

    Heavier and less available granade types (no HE-Frag), overkill in many situations


     the PKM is as good as KSP-58

    Lighter
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    Mike E

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Mike E on Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:38 pm

    NationalRus wrote:best in the world is a naive childish term, all depends on diffrent sectors and characteristics you are looking for. just shortly to say if i would need to arm a field army i would probably or better to say most likely go for modern AK versions or arms based on AK operating system. if i would need to equip a urban force, like Police, SWAT, special units for urban combat i would most likely go with some western or israeli models

    btw. the reliability issue is over used, modern even M16/M4 veriants and all arms based on ther operating system hold up very well in harsh enviroment, the famous saying that a littel of dirt and ther are out of order is total BS, only vietnam era M16's and the infamous british L85A1 can service this myth
    Sort of... Their is no "best of the world", but there is a best of "this or that". IMHO, Russian firearms tend to be more reliable than their Western counterparts, that is their "this or that".
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    GarryB

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  GarryB on Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:58 am

    BTW GarryB, is their any news or evidence of the next generation of Russian rifle grenade launchers, and or new ammunition?

    The AK12 is able to fire NATO standard rifle grenades from its muzzle, and there are a few that have a shoot through design so special blank rounds are not needed that look rather interesting.

    Of course there are a few new rifle grenade launchers designed for new rifles like the ADS, but they appear to use standard 40mm grenades.

    their 40mm grenades don't have shell cases and are like small mortar bombs... muzzle loaded and leave no shell case to be removed in the weapon after firing.

    There is a new automatic grenade launcher... well actually two I have seen... one is called Balkan and seems to be a very compact weapon (would be good coaxial weapon IMHO). It is 40mm calibre and uses rather large grenades modelled on the type of the underbarrel rounds... ie no shell case.

    There is also a 57mm grenade launcher I know less about that also looks interesting.



    as well as air-burst HE-FRAG rounds

    Good old ANIET fusing system. Much larger shells means more room for digital timing systems that are rather cheaper than a unit small enough to fit in a 25mm grenade...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:26 pm

     Much larger shells means more room for digital timing systems that are rather cheaper than a unit small enough to fit in a 25mm grenade...

    And one shell can do the job of a whole 25 mm granade burst  Smile
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    GarryB

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 12, 2014 11:23 am

    Indeed the ANIET system is an electronic fusing system, so if you fit the ANIET fuses to standard 125mm HE rounds the time is set as the round is loaded based on the ballistics computers calculation of time of flight.

    The timers are not super accurate, but are generally good enough for most jobs.

    There is a specialised HE frag round that is designed to blow fragments forward and sideways... the standard HE shell as a nose mounted fuse and long smooth sides so when ANIET sets off the charge most of the fragments go sideways and straight up and straight down as the shell is horizontal in flight and most of the fragments are in the side walls of the round.

    The new ANIET HE FRAG shell is designed with lots of fragments in the nose designed to be blown forward like a super shotgun blast, so you can set the fuse to set off the round 50m before impacting a target like a group of soldiers in the open and it will blast them with several kilos of fragments like a flying claymore mine.... would also be good for use against helos.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    cracker

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  cracker on Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:41 am

    runaway wrote:I have used both AKM and H&K36, and the G36 is a very very nice weapon, forced to chose i would go for a new G36 then a 40 year old AK-74.
    As for RPG, am a gunner on Carl Gustav, 84mm recoiles. Its in service in 40 countries and a truckload of different ammo is availeble. Still, i would go for a new RPG if a could, a RPG-29.
    Heavy MG, often on vehicles, i dont think the M2HB is much inferior to the Kord.
    Ordinary MG´s the PKM is as good as KSP-58.
    Pistols, little differens.
    Special weapons, iam not to good to judge on them.

    Overall i think russian weapons have an edge the western dont have, but its time the AK-12 come out with better optics, aimpoint style, better ergonomics and better accuracy on 200-400m.

    Western weapons are often made for the firing range, the russian ones are made for war.


    So you haven't used an AK-74M, which is the weapon I specified, not the AKM, a rifle in 7.62x39 introduced in 1959, decomissioned for general use in the mid 1980s, when USA used M16A1 and germany G3. AK-74M is extremely controlable (much more than any 5.56 rifle), not so heavy, and modulable enough. G36 offers strictly nothing over it, whereas M4 does, it's lighter, and easily modded. In the second place I definitely put US M4 or better, Hk416, certainly not any other assault rifle, G36 would still be behind AK5 (FNC) in my book. AK-74M offers a level of ruggedness unachieved in any other assault rifle. Do you see many soldiers worldwide doing push ups on the magazine of their rifle on a regular basis? Do you see them use the rifle as a ladder or platform with 80+ kg boys in gear walking on it on daily training, any rifle can survive a 4 story building fall on concrete even on the magazine? Hell no, but AK-74M does this, plus the regular job of a rifle. Have you ever seen the environement the AK-74M meets in harsh training courses of internal spetsnaz troops, and still shooting at the end?

    Sure, the G36 with built in sight will be a better marksman rifle for the soldier vs a bare AK-74M, but RUS troops in operation use a wide range of optics of the AK-74M, from 1P29 to passive night sights, a wide variety of red dots and reflex sights. AK-74M takes 45rds magazines, G36 is issued only with 30 rounds ones. G36<AK-74M 99% of the time. What's best about it before all, is the emphasis on simplicity and durability, nothing beats an AK at this, nothing.


    About RPG, the RPG-29 makes no sense whatsoever, it's a heavy recoilless AT rifle made "light" enough for shoulder use. RPG-7 uses the exact same warhead, PG-7VR, of course with less effective range. RPG-7 is lighter and much more compact than carl gustav, and the variety of grenades is as good or better. Accuracy for non expert shooter is better with CG though, but it's hell loud, ear damaging, and heavy weapon. Russian army uses RPG-7 as the main system (RPG-7V2 and RPG-7D3 with PGO-7), but it's 1 per section or platoon, the small disposable launchers are issued to almost all men, more like 3/4 of men in a platoon. It's usually RPG-26 and RSHG-2, 72mm ~3kg tubes. Bigger weapons like 105mm RSHG-1 and RPG-27, or derivatives like MRO, and other stuff, can be issued in specific circumstances. RPG-29 and 28 are dedicated AT systems, very rare, probably could be seen a lot in a real war, seldom used in training.

    M2 is not even comparable to KORD. Already with NSV, russians achieved a fantastic HMG outclassing the M2 in "bare use", but while vehicule mounted, NSV / KORD / M2 makes no difference almost. M2 is a bitch to maintain and use compared to KORD, the latter is also much lighter, much more reliable and much more accurate, not even talking about rate of fire.

    PKM > MAG58 or M240, mostly because it's much lighter, quite less long and bulky, and even more reliable. PKP pushes the PKM in yet another level, emphasis on LMG role with increased fire time ability. PKP accepts wide variety of sights (so does PKMN), so the "picatiny rail" is not an argument anymore. RPK-74M are seldom used, but it's a fine weapon, with no real equivalent, except the UK LSW86. Russians don't feel the need for light caliber belt fed like the minimi, they choose to give as much PKP or PKM as possible instead, and they have many. Machine gun wise, we can safely say that russia is quite confortable and will remain so. France for example is not.

    Pistols, as I mentionned, russia has many of them, top notch. The good old PM (makarov) is not the only thing they have, far from that. new russian guns outperform existing leaders of the market by a small to large margin (small vs glock, large vs beretta for example), plus all new russian guns fire extremely powerful P+ ammo with AP core. PYA, GSH-18 and SR-1 are those pistols.

    AK-12 is mostly irrelevant and useless for basic duty, but it will be a first choice for all spetsnaz units who currently operate heavily modded AK-74M. I still prefer AEK-971 for this task. AN-94 is in service, and was deployed in crimea when the russian special forces spreaded politeness. (you can find a video and screenshots, just type in russian AN-94 in crimea)

    The special purpose calibers and weapons of russian army are superb, their sniper rifles are great.
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    higurashihougi

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  higurashihougi on Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:22 am

    Would like to present another writing of Huy Phúc in the blogs and forum.

    The main characteristic of this writing is that it is informative, but have a very negative opinion about U.S. weapons.

    Feel free to criticize if you think Huy Phúc was wrong. Any constructive comments are beneficial.

    Cheers.

    Honestly, I do not have a solid understanding about gun anatomy and I have a poor English... so prepare.

    huy phúc wrote:
    The U.S. used M16 just because it is the offspring of Colt, the main rifle manufacturer of that country. Not else.

    Colt buy the design of AR-15 when it was very immature, and put it in the king's throne when it was born prematurely. That's why in three decades, EU never touched the U.S. M16. They would rather use heavy rifle catridge for an assault rifle than use M16. Clearly, M16 is a premature born child, it can be the king in U.S. but cannot have any place in Europe.

    Close allies of U.S. such as Canada, Australia, UK, Japan all used FN FAL design as their main assault gun, in the time when Russia still used 7.62mm M43 bullet.

    (...)

    Amongst the assault rifles which have large production rate, no one has such a humiliating and disgraceful history like M16.

    EU and other U.S. allies such as Japan, Canada, Australia... despised the M16A1. They would rather had no modern assault rifle for 3 deacades than touching the M16A1. Except the small, dependent, weak countries, only UK and Japan used the U.S. barrel, but they took the feeding machine from AR-18. Later EU used the SS109, but they never used feeding machine of M16. Countries with advanced technology like Germany designed their own weapon, like G11. The UK attempted several times to create its own catridge, for example cooperation with FN to format the 7x40mm for SM2, or 4.ab xmm like G11, but uncessful due to the dependence on U.S. supply.

    (...)

    Maximum effective range is stupid. Effective rane is the average results of the statistics taken from lots lots of soldiers. Average means no maximum.

    The so-called "maximum" effective range is achieved when the gun is tested when it is putted in a support system. At that condition, the maximum "effective" range is only 450 metres for rifles. The maximum range that soldier can aim using the iron sight is 300 metres. Therefore, people usually consider that effective range of rifle is 300 metres. Below that is the range of pistol.

    Effective range of M16 is damn low. Therefore the propaganda machine has to use the concept of "maximum effective range" to fool the buyers.

    (...)

    M16 is more accurate than AK-47... is just a myth.

    M16's bullet has a fixed rotation axis. This is the outdated technology of 19th century. Meanwhile AK's bullet is a spitzer, more aerodynamic, and more accurate. AK-74 perform a 3-round burst test all hit the target at 250m, in a snowy day.

    Can M16 perform the firing test of AK which have a 10cm diameter target at 100 metre ? F*ck no.

    (...)

    At the range of 100m, AK-107/08 and AN-94 can perform a full burst of 30 rounds effectively, all 30 bullets hit the target of 20x20cm. M16 cannot do that. For AK-47, a lot of bullet also hit the no.4 target in the test. Skewing angle is just 0.2 degree.

    (...)

    The relability of M16 is lower. The weakest point of M16 is its gas-operated reloader. The vessel for gas in M16 is damn small (1mm diameter) and can be easily choked by dust. Meanwhile, gas vessel in AK-47 has a big diameter (2/3 of M16 barrel diameter), it cannot be choked.

    AK also use the effect of "turning back of air's kinetic energy", the air flow has to turn back 300 degree when moving with 600m/s, therefore when the bullet escape the barrel, the air has just escape through air hole.(I don't really understand, can anybody explain this ?)

    (...)

    In the past, the USSR had a legendary gun named SVT. The idea was born in 1917, but received no support, finally in 192x people began to test it. It was accepted in 1938.

    SVT's gas-operated reloading was very preeminent. It was improved from the DP and it is lightweight. The characteristc of this gas-operated is that the "return shaft" (Vietnamese: cần đẩy về, I don't really know well what it is) has spring separated from the receiver, the cylinder is attached onto the return shaft (LWRC and AR-18 has a propaganda about "cup-shaped piston" which is bullshit).

    German's G43 copied the SVT gas-operated feeding, and that is the reason why G43 was accepted in the war. Countries like Sweden, Belgium, Switzerland also use similar breech to Russia. The basic design is the same, but the small details is different because Russia created it by milling and stamping machine, while Western Europe casted the breech. The distinctive characteristic of the breech is that the two pronged parts at the sides. And the FN FAL, standard assault rifle of EU in the old days of AK 7.62mm also used similar SVT gas-operated feeded, but it has different piston.

    (original Vietnamese used "khóa nòng", and I translated into "breech". Hope I used the right term.)

    Sweden, due to its neutral stance, decided to create its own gun and it copied the SVT to created  AG-42. But the AG-42 did not use SVT's gas-operated ones. AG's piston was positioned in the reverse order compared to FSA MAS, piston was positioned ontop of the below part of the receiver, and in M16 people called it "carrier key", a f*cking queer name.

    The gas feeder of AG-42 was used in AR-15. But the AR designer at that time were unexperienced. They did not know that the AG-42's feeder is no good. In fact, people had already discovered many shortcomings of AG's gas operated system: uneven heat cause the bending of the barrel, heavy amount of dust is generated inside the feeder... But it was in the time of war and for the sake of selling the propaganda machine went on to cover the AG's weakness. AR-15's design was poisoned by the propaganda, and since AR-15 fires in burst of very high rate, the problem of dust and choking quickly rose in the manner of geometric progression.

    And when Colt purchased AR-15 from Armalite, Colt passed the poisonous propaganda into American tax payers. The lobbyist bla bla bla about anything of AR-15 was all good, all perfect, etc. Colt also recruited Eugene Stoner from Armalite in order to bolster the propaganda effect. Stoner though that in Colt he would have a chance of promotion and have a chane of further improve the AR-15, but later Stone realized that he was fooled, for Colt's AR-15 he was merely a figurehead for advertisement. Frustated, Stone switched to Cadillac Gate and designed Stoner 63.

    When Stone designed the Stoner 63, the remaining team of Armalite designed the AR-18. Both AR-18 and Stoner 63 had a improved and much better feeding mechanism. Especially, the AR-18 re-introduced the feeding mechanism of SVT.

    Today, after the harsh truth about M16 in Iraq, Afganistan,... the gun designers massively revolt against the bullshit in M16. One of the design amongst this is the LWRC, actually this is a modernization of AR-18.

    Meanwhile, M16 is still a permature born child, a freaking fetus of Colt. It can only trembles with fear in front of SVT feeding mechanism.

    For reference, it is said that, when the U.S. officer tried to use Vietcong's AK-47, they said "this is the true weapon !". Today, when AK-47 and M16 are used in the same army against the Taliban and Iraqi terrorists, people have the chance to better compare them. The U.S. tried hard to replace AK-47 the Iraqi and Afghan allies by M16. But failed. Even the U.S. themshelves also prefer to use the AKs. The U.S. had to bought AKs from their allies in Eastern Europe and former USSR. But these countries started to use NATO bullet and reduced the production of AKs. And finally, what should come has finally come: it is said that Washington planned to purchase 70.000 AKs from Russia and a large number of AKs have been delivered.

    Look at the webpage of XM8, LWRC, FN... you can see many things about the freaking, premature born, degenerated feeding machine of M16.

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:49 am

    G36 offers strictly nothing over it, whereas M4 does, it's lighter, and easily modded

    M4... nay, I'd prefer german quality over unreliable carabine prone to overheating. Plus, it has nice in-build scope already. IIRC, it can be replaced with the whole transport grip, don't it?


    Accuracy for non expert shooter is better with CG though

    Why?

    Asf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:32 am

    I don't really understand, can anybody explain this ?

    It's a bit vague. May be he wanted to say turning gas flow blows out gas hole preventing it from choking due to local pressure increase? I don't know for sure if this kind of process actually take place. May be he just telling about gas piston mechanics advantage ovet direct impingement  of M16. 
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    Morpheus Eberhardt

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:51 am

    AK also use the effect of "turning back of air's kinetic energy", the air flow has to turn back 300 degree when moving with 600m/s, therefore when the bullet escape the barrel, the air has just escape through air hole.(I don't really understand, can anybody explain this ?)

    Should be about 130°, at least initially. Why 300°?

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  cracker on Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:41 pm

    Asf wrote:
    G36 offers strictly nothing over it, whereas M4 does, it's lighter, and easily modded

    M4... nay, I'd prefer german quality over unreliable carabine prone to overheating. Plus, it has nice in-build scope already. IIRC, it can be replaced with the whole transport grip, don't it?


    Accuracy for non expert shooter is better with CG though

    Why?

    M4 is a fine weapon, and more compact and lighter than G36. M4 reliability is fine, but you can't use it like an AK of course. Overall M4 offers high modularity, small size, and decent performance. M16A4 is a fine weapon too, but I prefer M4, more handy. German quality? It's a joke, german quality in firearms is overratted and irrelevant. G36 overheats easily, more than M4. G36 and G36K, service rifles of german army, are not modulable at all, and can't use any other optic. The optics inside were fine in 2000, they are largely outclassed by what you can put yourself on a M4 top: ACOG or Eotech, magnifiers, night vision... I don't like G36, but it's not a shitty weapon, just inferior.

    CG has better and more instinctive accuracy than RPG-7, because the projectiles are simple ballistic shells with high velocity, spin stabilised (CG is rifled). RPG-7 rounds are also spin stabilised, but also fin stabilised, and they are rockets, not ballistic objects, and they are more sensitive to wind. CG is thus more easy for an untrained person, but a highly trained RPG user will touch the target every time inside 300m.
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:47 pm

    cracker wrote:
    Asf wrote:
    G36 offers strictly nothing over it, whereas M4 does, it's lighter, and easily modded

    M4... nay, I'd prefer german quality over unreliable carabine prone to overheating. Plus, it has nice in-build scope already. IIRC, it can be replaced with the whole transport grip, don't it?


    Accuracy for non expert shooter is better with CG though

    Why?

    M4 is a fine weapon, and more compact and lighter than G36. M4 reliability is fine, but you can't use it like an AK of course. Overall M4 offers high modularity, small size, and decent performance. M16A4 is a fine weapon too, but I prefer M4, more handy. German quality? It's a joke, german quality in firearms is overratted and irrelevant. G36 overheats easily, more than M4. G36 and G36K, service rifles of german army, are not modulable at all, and can't use any other optic. The optics inside were fine in 2000, they are largely outclassed by what you can put yourself on a M4 top: ACOG or Eotech, magnifiers, night vision... I don't like G36, but it's not a shitty weapon, just inferior.

    CG has better and more instinctive accuracy than RPG-7, because the projectiles are simple ballistic shells with high velocity, spin stabilised (CG is rifled). RPG-7 rounds are also spin stabilised, but also fin stabilised, and they are rockets, not ballistic objects, and they are more sensitive to wind. CG is thus more easy for an untrained person, but a highly trained RPG user will touch the target every time inside 300m.

    The G-36 is not the best that is for sure but claiming it is inferior to M4/16 is just ignorance. Both have a lot of problems, like bad reciever quality which both are to blame, the one is plastic that can not even handle more than 4 years in service (G-36) and the other is prone of low quality material that is absolutley incapable of handling even slight overpressure without exploding, the M16 reciever and breech are to tight designed reducing its reliability and the biggest flaw no gas piston. I used it on reservists multi national shooting and could compare it with G-36 and Swiss SIG-550 and i must say the quality of M16 is inferior to what i have heared and imagined, the entire rifle rattled like a toy which was very odd due the tight reciever and breech design it overall feld even more like a toy even compared with the G-36 which has a full plastic reciever.
    Ther are also quite lot of disadvantages on G-36 which i know from serving with it for 4 years, it overheats far to fast that is true, it's accuracy is superb due the free floating barrel, but one stupid unwarriness and drop it or clonk it against wall or against any object and the accuracy worsens, not by 0.5-1 MOA but more like 3 MOA.

    The grunt G-36 has only the standard sights that is true, but for Special Forces or for units that are currently in Afghanistan there are also G-36 variants that do not posses the standard sights and have picannaly rail so everyone can add superior sights and scopes.

    Overall due the high amount of flaws on G36 and M16 i rate them barely equally in "quality". Compared with the 30 rounds i could shoot with the SIG-550 i can tell, both will lose under all situations and comperisions in performance against that rifle, which i was told has only one big issue, it is a true bitch to clean even compared to G36 which i can tell is already horrible to clean and can cause even some injuries like cuts and scratches.


    The RPG-7 rotates at a very slow rate and that is important since shaped charges are effected by centrifugal force that takes effect on the copper when it starts to shape to a narrow needle/jet stream and the centrufal force flattens out this needle and makes it more of a bulky peg than a needle, which worsens the penetration capability.

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  cracker on Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:40 pm

    Well you're probably right. But I doubt milspec (US) M4 or M16A4 are shit, definitely not. And again, Hk416 is all you need, besides an AK.

    I think AK5 is a great rifle, it's based off the FNC and made more rugged for use in sweden, I really like this nato rifle, more than any other i think. Sig 550 is quite nice, but heard many problems about short life of some internat components... Sig 551 carbine might be the best bet for a 5.56 rifle. I find the G36 too weird and tall, maybe I would prefer a reworked G36K with flat top and some improvements.

    I studied and learned almost all you can find on internet about RPG-7. Early rockets, PG-7V and PG-7VM, both have a spin rate of 5000-6000 rpm. That's huge. From the very improved PG-7VS, it was reduced to ~2000-3000 rpm. The high spin rates never prevented HEAT from peforating half meters of steel, look performance of HEAT rounds for the T-55, or simply those of the RPG-7. Sure it's even better with no spin, but, it's not that different. The explosion simply negates most of the spin energy, and the jet moves at 15km/s anyway. The important factors are mostly stand off distance, cone shape and material, and type of explosive.

    In carl gustav, spin is created simply by conventional rifling and a driving band on the shell. In RPG-7, it's initiated by a helical butt of the rocket, then continued and accelerated by the shape of the nozzles of the motor. RPG-7 is smoothbore of course.

    85mm PG-7: 260mm RHA pen
    72mm PG-7VS (copied from PG-9): 400mm.



    About rifles, I think you can't beat the slickness and rugged design of this bad boy
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:57 am

    I think you that you have made some mistake or got a bad source for the spinning rate. The Engine itself lets rotate the warhead but the fins are there for a reason to reduce the spinning rate by airdrag which results in a rather low spinning rate but enough to stabilize the warhead. If it was about such high spinning rates then the fins would be not 90° straight facing away from the body but would be round shaped like on Shturm ATGM to avoid much of airdrag and actualy at 6000 rpm it would not need any fins to stabilize it at all, they would be dead weight and counter productive to such high spinning rates.

    And GarryB has already made a good post about the negative effect on shaped charges from spinning, that is also reason why Apaches M789 HEDP ammunition which are small shaped charges have special lining in the cone to reduce the centrifugal force on the forming jet stream/needle when it sets off.

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1935p30-shamanov-insists-the-bmd-4m-is-neccesary
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t1852-questions-answers
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:15 am

    Speaking about Russian Arms, whats your guys thoughts on the AK-74MB?

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 22, 2014 3:50 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Speaking about Russian Arms, whats your guys thoughts on the AK-74MB?


    Wierd modification, don't think i would feel comfortable with the forward trigger mechanism firing it scrumbed up like this, feels unatural but still better than M16 or G36.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 22, 2014 7:31 am

    The relability of M16 is lower. The weakest point of M16 is its gas-operated reloader. The vessel for gas in M16 is damn small (1mm diameter) and can be easily choked by dust. Meanwhile, gas vessel in AK-47 has a big diameter (2/3 of M16 barrel diameter), it cannot be choked.

    AK also use the effect of "turning back of air's kinetic energy", the air flow has to turn back 300 degree when moving with 600m/s, therefore when the bullet escape the barrel, the air has just escape through air hole

    I think he is talking about the gas system in the M16 compared with the AK.

    The M16 has a very thin tube taking gas directly from barrel to bolt face and is only a few mms in diameter and therefore easily clogged/ blocked.

    CG is thus more easy for an untrained person, but a highly trained RPG user will touch the target every time inside 300m.

    Who cares how easy a weapon is to use for an untrained person?

    Early rockets, PG-7V and PG-7VM, both have a spin rate of 5000-6000 rpm. That's huge. From the very improved PG-7VS, it was reduced to ~2000-3000 rpm. The high spin rates never prevented HEAT from peforating half meters of steel,

    6000 rpm means 100 rotations per second, but the RPG-7 rocket moves at just under 400m/s so that is one rotation ever 4 metres which is nothing.

    A 5.45mm bullet rotates every 25cm or so, so at 900m/s we are talking about a rotation speed of 3600 rotations PER SECOND.

    The explosion simply negates most of the spin energy, and the jet moves at 15km/s anyway. The important factors are mostly stand off distance, cone shape and material, and type of explosive.

    A high rotation speed is bad for HEAT rounds.... and you can't spin APFSDS rounds fast enough to stabilise them... that is why you don't spin javelins or darts (the sports equipment, not the weapons)... and it is also why most main battle tanks have smooth bore barrels.

    The Engine itself lets rotate the warhead but the fins are there for a reason to reduce the spinning rate by airdrag which results in a rather low spinning rate but enough to stabilize the warhead. If it was about such high spinning rates then the fins would be not 90° straight facing away from the body but would be round shaped like on Shturm ATGM to avoid much of airdrag and actualy at 6000 rpm it would not need any fins to stabilize it at all, they would be dead weight and counter productive to such high spinning rates.

    As far as I know the rocket nozzles just propel the grenade and the long fins impart a slow rate of turn... 6,000 rpm is a relatively slow rate of turn.

    There is a piece at the very rear of the rocket that has angled fins the diameter of the tube that might direct the blast of the launching charge and make it impart roll on firing.

    Speaking about Russian Arms, whats your guys thoughts on the AK-74MB?

    Doesn't look like a finished weapon... it looks like a homemade modification...

    I'd prefer the ADS I think.


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    Werewolf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Werewolf on Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:00 pm

    As far as I know the rocket nozzles just propel the grenade and the long fins impart a slow rate of turn... 6,000 rpm is a relatively slow rate of turn. There is a piece at the very rear of the rocket that has angled fins the diameter of the tube that might direct the blast of the launching charge and make it impart roll on firing. wrote:

    I think you are right with the after section fins that they produce the spinning.

    Asf

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    Re: Firearms comparison: Russia with rest of the world

    Post  Asf on Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:30 pm

    Werewolf wrote:

    I think you are right with the after section fins that they produce the spinning.
    Is it a questionable? What's written in the RPG-7's manual

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