Russian Navy: Status & News #2

Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.

Hahaha... the hiss created by thousands or hundreds of thousands of small bubbles collapsing on a propeller blade that is spinning too fast is not the same as the single bubble that envelops a Shkval torpedo... if was just a weapon to kill everyone in the vicinity of a dying sub then why bother developing a torpedo that has to be aimed or guided... a small nuke would do the same job and lead to a much quicker and less painful death for the crew.

Shkvall is not just used in subs, it is also mounted on platforms and used in harbours... yet again the west dismisses a technology it has largely ignored... when US subs have supercavitating torpedoes however it will be the cutting technology of the century.... 

Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.

some quick and dirty calcs:
1000 miles ~= 1610 kms, speed of sound in water is 1482m/s so time for sound to arrive at that distance is ~=18 minutes, and not a minute.
say the launcher is a kilo and spends half of that time running at full speed - 21 knots then silent running at 3 knots for the rest- the search area becomes 141.2 km^2, might as well have dissolved into sea foam unless you have psychics in your employ.

overall a nice demo of the dunning-krueger effect, i admit i make the same type of mistakes but heck no one pays me for this.

GarryB wrote:

Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.

Hahaha... the hiss created by thousands or hundreds of thousands of small bubbles collapsing on a propeller blade that is spinning too fast is not the same as the single bubble that envelops a Shkval torpedo... if was just a weapon to kill everyone in the vicinity of a dying sub then why bother developing a torpedo that has to be aimed or guided... a small nuke would do the same job and lead to a much quicker and less painful death for the crew.

Shkvall is not just used in subs, it is also mounted on platforms and used in harbours... yet again the west dismisses a technology it has largely ignored... when US subs have supercavitating torpedoes however it will be the cutting technology of the century.... 

That is the same propaganda and garbage talk to justify why US has no such technology, just like they did with T-72 autoloaders the legendary Arm eaters, however never seen a shred of evidence for this bullshit because we know it is just western propaganda, not to mention it is an AUTOLOADER no one needs to have their hands even close to that.

I will not call shkval even a revenge weapon . Do subs patrol in pairs ?

If not . then imagine russia encounters rogue american sub in pacific now russian sub can fire its shkval torpedo and american sub will fire its guided torpedo now before american torpedo reaches russians sub american will get destroyed .

Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

max steel wrote:I will not call shkval even a revenge weapon . Do subs patrol in pairs ?

If not .  then imagine russia encounters rogue american sub in pacific now russian sub can fire its shkval torpedo and american sub will fire its guided torpedo now before american torpedo reaches russians sub american will get destroyed .

Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in  such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to  prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

Such a weapon is obviously not a simple tank, but a strategic weapon, the less you know the better for the national security and that is a good thing. They are not expensive compared with their strategic and tactical value in comperision with the numbers game the US wins by big leap so such weapons are justified and necessary.

is there a big gap btwn russia and usa nuclear carrying subs ? Usa is planning to retire their ohio class subs and new sub will cost much to us taxpayers ( check my comment on us navy thread ) . Btw Chinese and usa subs are comparable in numbers but i believe american subs are advanced than chinese counterparts .

max steel wrote:I will not call shkval even a revenge weapon . Do subs patrol in pairs ?

If not .  then imagine russia encounters rogue american sub in pacific now russian sub can fire its shkval torpedo and american sub will fire its guided torpedo now before american torpedo reaches russians sub american will get destroyed .

Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in  such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to  prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

There is no reason why Shkval shouldn't be deployed. It's the best missile against carrier groups, It would be insane not to have those in service. Even if they are in very few numbers they would be needed. These things are kept secret, Of course the public will not know the true specifications, Or numbers of these weapons as they are very technologically advanced. Who knows maybe they have a modernization going for those missiles and no body knows.

VladimirSahin wrote:

max steel wrote:I will not call shkval even a revenge weapon . Do subs patrol in pairs ?

If not .  then imagine russia encounters rogue american sub in pacific now russian sub can fire its shkval torpedo and american sub will fire its guided torpedo now before american torpedo reaches russians sub american will get destroyed .

Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in  such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to  prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

There is no reason why Shkval shouldn't be deployed. It's the best missile against carrier groups, It would be insane not to have those in service. Even if they are in very few numbers they would be needed. These things are kept secret, Of course the public will not know the true specifications, Or numbers of these weapons as they are very technologically advanced. Who knows maybe they have a modernization going for those missiles and no body knows.

Those weapons are not bound to INF or START treaties making them an object of secrecay since they are not an asset of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction) but still a naval strategic asset it makes it highly valueable and therefore a reason to keep secret, having published numbers or pressence and deployment of such weapon, specifically when such information is leaked about the vessels and habours that have them would only attract crosshair of US navy and Airforce on those specific strategic assets, that entire secrecy is a national security issue and is for good treated as such.

VladimirSahin wrote:
There is no reason why Shkval shouldn't be deployed. It's the best missile against carrier groups, It would be insane not to have those in service. Even if they are in very few numbers they would be needed. These things are kept secret, Of course the public will not know the true specifications, Or numbers of these weapons as they are very technologically advanced. Who knows maybe they have a modernization going for those missiles and no body knows.

ehem, that honor is reserved for Granit. 30 years have passed and the counters against it have become a lot more effective but nuke-tip these mofos like they were really meant to be used and they are still capable of wiping out ac groups.

GarryB wrote:

Sounds amazing. But remember: Supercavitation is astonishingly loud. That's why the Shkvall is basically a revenge weapon. If you're not about to die before you launch one, you'll die shortly thereafter because everyone else within 1,000 miles will know you're there the minute you launch the weapon. (In addition, the Shkvall has other practical limitations when it comes to range and guidance.) So a supercavitating torpedo is all about going out in a blaze of glory — firing it when you know you're already dead.

Hahaha... the hiss created by thousands or hundreds of thousands of small bubbles collapsing on a propeller blade that is spinning too fast is not the same as the single bubble that envelops a Shkval torpedo... if was just a weapon to kill everyone in the vicinity of a dying sub then why bother developing a torpedo that has to be aimed or guided... a small nuke would do the same job and lead to a much quicker and less painful death for the crew.

Shkvall is not just used in subs, it is also mounted on platforms and used in harbours... yet again the west dismisses a technology it has largely ignored... when US subs have supercavitating torpedoes however it will be the cutting technology of the century.... 

I recall an article in Scientific American which claimed that the US had developed the shkval technology during the 1950s.

1) The hydrodynamic theories behind the shkval weren't even developed during the 1950s. And the USSR had Kolmogorov, the
Einstein of turbulence science.

2) The article showed a regularly shaped torpedo and claimed it was the prototype. Right there I knew they were making
it all up. The shape of the shkval is not aesthetic, it is critical for the cavitation effect to work.

3) If this was such boring old tech, then why was Eduard Pope so busy stealing it? Too bad Putin let this spy
go after he faked his "cancer". Next time let them rot in jail even if they do develop cancer.

It is basic common sense... as subs get quieter the detection ranges using passive sonar will shrink... the key factor this so called expert has picked up on is the max range of 7km for the export version of the Shkvall, which sounds very short ranged compared with other much slower torpedoes... which also make a lot of noise and give away the location of the launching submarine BTW.

The fact of the matter is that with modern digital computers and lots of relatively cheap processing power most modern subs can hear most of what is going on around them, but a modern diesel electric that is running on electric (ie batteries) at low speed is very hard to detect by anyone let alone at the 50km plus most modern torpedoes can reach...

Assuming therefore you might only detect an enemy sub when it is within 5km of your position having a torpedo that can be launched and actually kill that sub very very rapidly is not a suicide weapon... it is more a... you have better ears than I do, but when you detect me first and launch your wire guided torpedo  to try and sink me, I am going to fire my rocket powered wire guided torpedo and kill you first, so your wire guided torpedo wont have you to guide it and it will revert to active sonar guidance, which I can then decoy and deal with...

Can Russian sub manage to come back safe in such an encounter is doubtful though . TR1 said thereis no solid evidence to prove that russian navy has deployed shkval .

No. What TR-1 stated was that there is no evidence that the Russian navy still has Shkvall deployed operationally. The first rocket propelled torpedo was called RAT-52..... these supercavitating torpedoes are not new.

The fact that they don't talk much about it suggests to me that it is still operational.

Btw Chinese and usa subs are comparable in numbers but i believe american subs are advanced than chinese counterparts .

And in real combat it is always the most sophisticated weapon that wins... that is why the US won the war in vietnam... and the Soviets won in Afghanistan in the 1980s.

about Shkval ， I find Chinese article about it.

In 1991 after USSR collapsed, a group of Chinese went to Uzbekistan （Shkval was produced in Uzbekistan. USSR had important torpedo

test facilities in Caspian Sea） and bought 40 VA-111，Shkval.

they bring Shkval back and did some test ， they found Shkval can sink any warship even without warhead. it's very powerful

but they also found some shortcomings， its effective firing range only 7KM~12KM. this Shkval only go straightly. Make enemy detect

sub easily. How to get closed to ac in 12Km is also a question.

the article also reveal China already absorb the tech， and try to modify Shkval.

If Russian want to sell their Yasen , China is ready to buy some,


but nuclear sub is core of RuNavy. so

In this age of automation and drone platforms, I could forsee a stealthy underwater drone built around a Shkval and designed to patrol its allotted zone to guard against hostile subs and surface vessels. If target is determined to be an enemy, the drone locks on and establishes target speed, distance and heading, then fires its Shkval when a firing solution is confirmed. Drones would be deployed in a grid to guard approaches to home waters, strategic assets (ports, offshore installations), naval bases and SSBN bastions. They would return periodically to a docking station on the seabed to recharge batteries and establish communications to shore for sitreps, mission updates/patrol routes and update of IFF codes (stations are linked to shore/offshore facility by subsea power cables and fibre optics for that purpose), while equipping the docks with directional hydrophones allows them to function as a passive sensor network for detection of hostile forces.

Science fiction? Maybe, but there was a time when robotic aircraft were considered far-fetched.

Drone boats have been kicking around for a while now, and robotic underwater vehicles are routinely used in oil and gas industries, so I don't think it's that far fetched at all. An automated underwater vehicle gets around the main issue with submarines - the need for a pressure hull to protect the human crew. With no human crew the design gets much simpler, smaller, cheaper and quieter. From the Russian perspective, a system such as that would be useful and possibly simpler than the conventional alternatives for protecting places that are remote and poorly served by infrastructure, yet have important coastal waters - like the Kurils, Sea of Okhotsk and Northern Sea Route. A regular patrol ship could deploy an array of drones and effectively patrol a much wider area with long loiter times. Other nations with long, remote coastlines (i.e. Australia in the Timor and Arafura seas, Canada in the arctic islands, France in French Polynesia and the Scattered Islands, etc.) would benefit as well.

I'm genuinely surprised something similar hasn't already been deployed as the technology required isn't that sophisticated - if anything it's simpler.

Big_Gazza wrote:In this age of automation and drone platforms, I could forsee a stealthy underwater drone built around a Shkval and designed to patrol its allotted zone to guard against hostile subs and surface vessels.  If target is determined to be an enemy, the drone locks on and establishes target speed, distance and heading, then fires its Shkval when a firing solution is confirmed.  Drones would be deployed in a grid to guard approaches to home waters, strategic assets (ports, offshore installations), naval bases and SSBN bastions.  They would return periodically to a docking station on the seabed to recharge batteries and establish communications to shore for sitreps, mission updates/patrol routes and update of IFF codes (stations are linked to shore/offshore facility by subsea power cables and fibre optics for that purpose), while equipping the docks with directional hydrophones allows them to function as a passive sensor network for detection of hostile forces.

Science fiction?  Maybe, but there was a time when robotic aircraft were considered far-fetched.

Recently very often when Russian admirals or designers were referring to new AC I could hear that this one includes robotic underwater and air drones. so maybe it is that distant future after all. BTW small automatic sub can carry more then one Shkval and due to since and maybe reinforced construction maybe classical 324mm torpedoes cannot destroy it. At lest not 1 hit.

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Big_Gazza wrote:In this age of automation and drone platforms, I could forsee a stealthy underwater drone built around a Shkval and designed to patrol its allotted zone to guard against hostile subs and surface vessels.  If target is determined to be an enemy, the drone locks on and establishes target speed, distance and heading, then fires its Shkval when a firing solution is confirmed.  Drones would be deployed in a grid to guard approaches to home waters, strategic assets (ports, offshore installations), naval bases and SSBN bastions.  They would return periodically to a docking station on the seabed to recharge batteries and establish communications to shore for sitreps, mission updates/patrol routes and update of IFF codes (stations are linked to shore/offshore facility by subsea power cables and fibre optics for that purpose), while equipping the docks with directional hydrophones allows them to function as a passive sensor network for detection of hostile forces.

Science fiction?  Maybe, but there was a time when robotic aircraft were considered far-fetched.

Recently very often when Russian admirals or designers were referring to new AC I could hear that this one includes robotic underwater and air drones. so maybe it is that distant future after all. BTW small automatic sub can carry more then one Shkval and due to since and maybe reinforced construction maybe classical 324mm torpedoes cannot destroy it. At lest not 1 hit.

I think problems the Russians have with drones in general isn't the hardware as much as the software and AI. One of the real tragedies of the collapse of the USSR was that it stalled the computer hardware and software industries just at the time when software and programming techniques were undergoing a revolution, and as "smart" embedded hardware emerging. By the time the successor states recovered, that boat had already sailed. It is always a bit odd when you see photos from many Russian projects (scientific, general infrastructure or military) and you see a lot of the IT equipment - both hardware and software - is western or east asian.

RedJasmin wrote: I think problems the Russians have with drones in general isn't the hardware as much as the software and AI. One of the real tragedies of the collapse of the USSR was that it stalled the computer hardware and software industries just at the time when software and programming techniques were undergoing a revolution, and as "smart" embedded hardware emerging. By the time the successor states recovered, that boat had already sailed. It is always a bit odd when you see photos from many Russian projects (scientific, general infrastructure or military) and you see a lot of the IT equipment - both hardware and software -  is western or east asian.

I am not sure if I understand your thesis - is this that Russia +lacks  of SW engineers and scientists? If I get it right you are pretty far from reality. If you smoke send me some weekend approaches if you read US embassy leaflets just bring then to public toilets. There is never enough paper there. At least Theft can do something positive.

Did you check something easy like this? Just on of worlds competitions:

At the finals of the 2015 ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest (ACM-ICPC), St. Petersburg National Research University of IT, Mechanics and Optics placed first, the only competitor to solve all the problems to win the contest.  Second place went to Moscow State University, followed by the University of Tokyo in third place.  Two Chinese universities, Tsinghua and Peking, finished fourth and fifth, respectively.  In sixth place was the University of California, Berkeley.  The competition pits teams of three university students against 13 complex, real-world problems and a demanding five-hour deadline.  It showcases the analytical and coding skills of the contenders from 128 teams competing in the final round.

http://www.acm.org/press-room/news-releases/2015/icpc-2015
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACM_International_Collegiate_Programming_Contest



Wrt IT HW is there mostly because there was until recently no push to make own and instead procuring western (quite sure that lobbying bribery same mechanisms as US companies do in west). Besides there is barrier i call mental colonization - we buy western not ours. It smeems now it wil lbe imperative to buy Russian because of bookmarks.

SW ? well if Mededev tweets on iPhone does not mean that fighters and subs run on on Win XP.  

BTW for eastern SW on subs what exactly did you see?  

Underwater drones are already there  for yasen class subs . I guess you didn't read this article perhaps .



Robots, drones to boost Russian 5th gen nuclear subs’ arsenal

Russia’s fifth generation nuclear submarines will be armed with robots and underwater drones in addition to conventional weaponry. “We’re talking about battle robots which can be released by the submarine, and a type of underwater drone,” he explained.

According to the designer, the robots would be disposable or returnable of military, surveillance or communications purpose.

“They’ll be released by the submarine and stay offline before being remotely activated on command. It will give the submarine time to leave the area, with the drone staying in place to maintain a semblance that the submarine is still there,” he said.

http://rt.com/news/214563-robot-drone-russia-submarine/

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
I am not sure if I understand your thesis - is this that Russia +lacks  of SW engineers and scientists? If I get it right you are pretty far from reality. If you smoke send me some weekend approaches if you read US embassy leaflets just bring then to public toilets. There is never enough paper there. At least Theft can do something positive.

Did you check something easy like this? Just on of worlds competitions:

Having some talented individuals is one thing, and there is no doubt Russia does. Rather, it's a lack of a decent framework to turn that talent into an enabler generalised production. The best example is the Elbrus CPU chip. It's a great design, highly efficient and tolerant of imperfect situations. But it's never been picked up a run with by industry within Russia, and though a locally designed chip, it has to be manufactured (in small batches, pushing up costs) in Taiwan, as there is no infrastructure for fabricating it within Russia.

It's not a case of having the most spectacular technologies, but rather of being able to turn the cutting edge research of the last decade into a reliable, cheap, ready-packaged technology for deployment in the field - and the slump of the 90s badly affected this area, as it was this area which was just coming to maturity at the time of the Soviet collapse - hence issues like the lack of up mass-scale CPU fabrication facilities and the like.

Wrt IT HW is there mostly because there was until recently no push to make own and instead procuring western (quite sure that lobbying bribery same mechanisms as US companies do in west). Besides there is barrier i call mental colonization - we buy western not ours. It smeems now it wil lbe imperative to buy Russian because of bookmarks.

Bookmarks? And yes, there is def. an issue with mental colonization. Many people default assume Russian products are inferior, and also the equally destructive reaction - the default assumption they are superior. Both can be dangerous - one leads to dependence, the other to over-confidence.

SW ? well if Mededev tweets on iPhone does not mean that fighters and subs run on on Win XP.  
BTW for eastern SW on subs what exactly did you see?  

I didn't mention subs, just in general industrial, scientific and military use.

max steel wrote:Underwater drones are already there  for yasen class subs . I guess you didn't read this article perhaps .



Robots, drones to boost Russian 5th gen nuclear subs’ arsenal

Russia’s fifth generation nuclear submarines will be armed with robots and underwater drones in addition to conventional weaponry. “We’re talking about battle robots which can be released by the submarine, and a type of underwater drone,” he explained.

According to the designer, the robots would be disposable or returnable of military, surveillance or communications purpose.

“They’ll be released by the submarine and stay offline before being remotely activated on command. It will give the submarine time to leave the area, with the drone staying in place to maintain a semblance that the submarine is still there,” he said.

Interesting. It'll be interesting to see how these are used, esp. in the coastal pacific waters.

Redjasmin. If you want to debate on semiconductors in Russia, there is a thread for that under Russia section at bottom of forums. Plenty of news and talk.

sepheronx wrote:Redjasmin. If you want to debate on semiconductors in Russia, there is a thread for that under Russia section at bottom of forums. Plenty of news and talk.

Thanks for the heads-up, Sepheronx

max steel wrote:Underwater drones are already there  for yasen class subs . I guess you didn't read this article perhaps .

According to Russian classification is a 4th gen sub

max steel wrote:
Robots, drones to boost Russian 5th gen nuclear subs’ arsenal

Russia’s fifth generation nuclear submarines will be armed with robots and underwater drones in addition to conventional weaponry. “We’re talking about battle robots which can be released by the submarine, and a type of underwater drone,” he explained.

According to the designer, the robots would be disposable or returnable of military, surveillance or communications purpose.

“They’ll be released by the submarine and stay offline before being remotely activated on command. It will give the submarine time to leave the area, with the drone staying in place to maintain a semblance that the submarine is still there,” he said.

http://rt.com/news/214563-robot-drone-russia-submarine/

BTW I presume this is something that fits to torpedo tube - otherwise how to carry it - and being silent overhead for nuked Shkval sounds like S-Fi madness My educated guess is that reconnaissance or anti-saboteur/ mine-hunting operations.

Read the link they have mentioned Yasen Class sub will have such features .