Russian Navy: Status & News #2

Sigma and Mars-Passat have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Sigma is a combat information system like NTDS. Mars-Passat was a phased array radar like SPY-1.

That's literally apples and oranges.

artjomh wrote:Sigma and Mars-Passat have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Sigma is a combat information system like NTDS. Mars-Passat was a phased array radar like SPY-1.

That's literally apples and oranges.

Just a radar is Fregat or Podkat, Mars-Passat was named a "complex", to be clear, its not RLS, its RLK.

In several books it mentioned Mars-Passat - there was a lot of horror stories about making "entire" system work. Mars-Passat here can be seen as skeleton for entire system, cause it was responsible for main task - defense. Now I remember that overall "BIUS" was called afair Lesorub, but still - Mars-Passat and its abilities were fundamental to "Soviet Aegis" project. Once MP failed - all the hype degraded to mere masturbation with "changing Very Old Shit with Just Old Shit". Though I cant be sure I'm right on this.

max steel wrote:Just a radar is Fregat or Podkat, Mars-Passat was named a "complex", to be clear, its not RLS, its RLK.

That is literally non sequitur to anything I said. Apple and fucking oranges.

Oh, and an RLK is just a nomenclature for an overarching system that combines several RLS that work on different "contours" (air search, low alt, surface search, target illumination, etc)

For example, RLK Flag combined RLS Voskhod and RLS Fregat. Forum = Podberyozovik + Fregat. Monolit = Mech + Massiv. Mars-Passat, similarly combined several "contours" (air defense and 3D search) in one. Because it was a phased array, duh.

Navy Russia updates in 2015

Russia continues the implementation of the State program of weapons calculated to 2020. One of the main elements of this program is an upgrade plan appliances Navy. Currently, a number of domestic shipbuilding enterprises performing public order and builds ships, submarines, boats, etc. any type. Part of the existing orders were successfully completed last year, and some ships or submarines will be transferred to the Navy in the foreseeable future.

According to reports, during 2015 the Russian shipbuilding industry is completed, tested and delivered to the customer, including foreign, 4 submarines, 2 surface warships, 4 units of ships auxiliary facilities, 2 landing craft air-cavity, as well as 8 other types of boats. In addition, the Navy received quite a number of tugs, service vessels, floating cranes, etc.

Despite all the successes, not all plans for 2015 have been implemented in a timely manner. So, because of the nature of the production problems in the past year failed to complete the tests of two frigates of Project 11356 "Admiral Grigorovich" and "Admiral Essen." According to existing plans, until recently, these ships were to join the Navy until the end of 2015. Now renting frigates rescheduled for 2016. Available information suggests that the updated plans will not require new developments and will be successfully implemented.

Petersburg shipyard "Admiralty Shipyards" in the past year gave customers the four diesel-electric submarines of the family "Warszawianka". July 3 ceremony of raising the flag on the submarine B-262 "Stary Oskol" (Project 636.3), which became part of the Black Sea Fleet. April 25 lowered the boat into the water of the same project B-265 "Krasnodar". Testing continued for several months, and based on their results on November 5 submarine expanded submarine forces of the Black Sea Fleet.

Also, it should be noted that last year, "Admiralty Shipyards" handed over to the naval forces of Vietnam two submarines 636.1 Project, launched in 2014. Boats HQ-185 Khánh Hòa and HQ-186 Đà Nẵng been transferred to the customer until the end of last year.

December 12 at the Black Sea Fleet held a flag-raising ceremony on two new small missile ships of the project 21631 "Buyan-M." Now, as part of this association are serving ships "Green Dol" and "Serpukhov" major shock weapons which is the missile complex "Caliber".

July 4th Baltic Fleet received the second and third landing craft project 21820 "Dugong" - "Lieutenant Rimsky-Korsakov" and "Sub-Lieutenant Lermontov" built Yaroslavsky Shipyard. The construction of these boats can carry up to 3 tanks or 90 paratroopers and move at speeds up to 35 knots.

In 2015, the industry has completed the implementation of several major orders for the construction of special ships designed to solve specific problems. The new technique has already joined the fleet and managed to start full operation. Moreover, some new ships even have time to be a cause for concern among foreign experts.

May 23 at the Northern Fleet was incorporated oceanographic research vessel "Amber" (Project 22010). The ship carries a set of scientific equipment, which allows to carry out various research in all areas of the oceans. A few months after the beginning of the service vessel "Yantar" has gone to the first long march, after which the foreign press there was plenty of specific publications. It was alleged that the crew of "Amber" searches for strategic communication cables, and therefore threatens the security of some foreign countries.

July 26, 2015 St. Andrew's flag was raised on average intelligence ship Project 18280 "Yuri Ivanov" that are included in the Northern Fleet. According to reports, the ship received a set of electronic tools to perform various intelligence tasks. Precise information on this matter has not yet been announced. It is reported that in the foreseeable future will be built similar ships for the Pacific, Baltic and Black Sea fleets.

December 11 in the Navy, was adopted a floating dock "Sviyaga" (Project 22570). This dock is designed to perform a variety of maintenance work of ships or submarines, and can also be used for their carriage, including the country's inland waterways.

December 18 Northern Fleet received sea transport weapons project 20180TV "Academician Kovalev," built "Zvezdochka". The ship has a cargo area in the rear part, and is equipped with a crane lifting capacity of 120 tons. It is envisaged area for helicopter landing.

December 25 the Pacific Fleet added rescue vessel "Igor Belousov", designed by 21300S. Using a set of special equipment the vessel will be able to assist surface ships and submarines to rescue crews. To perform the latter task the ship carries a deep-water apparatus "Bester-1" and the Remote control system, as well as the pressure chamber and is equipped with the necessary medical equipment.

During 2015 Shipyard "Pella" completed and handed Navy a few patrol boats Project 03160 "Raptor". Four of these boats joined the Black Sea Fleet, the Baltic three handed.

In 2015, the industry has successfully engaged in the construction and testing of various courts auxiliary facilities. So, in January and March Both fleets are respectively received one multipurpose vessel port service project 03180. In June, the Black Sea sailors received a rescue tug "Professor Nicholas Moore" (Project 22870). Pacific and Baltic fleets transferred large hydrographic boat project 19920. The Pacific Fleet is developing two floating crane project 02,690.

Rescue Fleet Russia added a large number of two types of boats. Baltic Fleet received six rescue boats 23040 project also delivered seven multi-functional rescue boat project 23370 (3 for the Caspian Flotilla and two for the Baltic and Black Sea fleets).

In 2015 we completed the construction and testing of several tugboats project 90600, 76609 and PE-65. These vessels passed Baltic and Northern fleets. Construction tugs of these projects continues.

According to the Ministry of Defense, last year the Navy received two multi-purpose submarines and eight surface ships (excluding auxiliary vessels). These supplies are allowed to raise the share of new equipment fleet to 39%. Implementation of new orders and deliveries of new ships, submarines, etc. will increase this parameter. In accordance with the tasks, the end of the decade, the share of new technology in the armed forces should reach three-quarters.

To perform the tasks currently being built a large number of ships, vessels, boats and submarines. In addition, last year, work started on several new orders. The intensity of the work of ship-building industry suggests that the end of the decade, the Navy will actually receive the required equipment. Construction of new ships is facing some difficulties, but there is every reason to look to the future with optimism.

20 years of Navy Building

1995. In the Northern Fleet were taken nuclear submarine K-157 "Wild Boar" K-257 "Samara". Exports to China alone built diesel-electric submarines of "Warszawianka".

1996. Laid head strategic missile submarine pr. 955 "Borei" ("Yury Dolgoruky"). Built "Warszawianka" to Iran's navy.

1997. The composition of the Navy accepted nuclear submarine K-150 "Tomsk". Laid headache diesel-electric boat pr. 677 "Lada". In the same year it was built two export "Varshavyanka" (including the now deceased Indian "Sindurakshak").

1998. The fleet received heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Peter the Great". Foreign customers transferred to another export diesel-electric submarines of "Warszawianka".

1999. The fleet received a large anti-submarine ship "Admiral Chabanenko".

2000. Naval forces in China were transferred to two destroyers, built for export projects 956-E ("Hangzhou" and "Fuzhou").

2001. Laid head Corvette pr. 20380 ("Guarding"). The fleet passed the nuclear submarine K-335 "Cheetah".

2002. No notable event happened.

2003. Laid second Corvette pr. 20380 ("savvy"). Adopted operational patrol ship "Tatarstan".

2004. Laid strategic missile submarine K-550, "Alexander Nevsky" and the first landing ship pr. 11741 ("Ivan Gren").

2005. Laid Corvette pr. 20380 ("Courageous") and a diesel-electric submarine pr. 677 (B-586 "Kronstadt"). The Navy transferred to China a destroyer ave. 956-EM ("Taizhou").

2006. Laid strategic missile submarine K-551 "Vladimir Monomakh" and head frigate pr. 22350 ("Admiral Gorshkov"). Laid corvettes "resistant" and "perfect." The Navy transferred to China next destroyer ave. 956-EM ("Ningbo").

2007. No notable event happened.

2008. In the Navy corvette had been taken "Guarding" and experimental diesel-electric submarine B-90 "Sarov". The new ships in that year are not laid.

2009. The nuclear-powered submarine project "Ash-M" (K-561 "Kazan") and the frigate "Admiral Kasatonov."

2010. Laid head frigate pr. 11356 ("Admiral Grigorovich") and diesel-electric boat B-261 "Novorossiysk". Adopted into operation of diesel-electric boat B-585 "St. Petersburg".

2011. Was laid frigate "Admiral Essen" and diesel-electric boat B-237 "Rostov-on-Don." The fleet passed the corvette "savvy".

2012. Was laid frigate pr. 22350 ("Admiral Golovko"), nuclear submarine missile "Prince Vladimir", diesel-electric boat B-262 "Stary Oskol" Corvettes "Loud" and "Gremyashchy" frigate "Admiral Makarov" . The fleet passed the patrol ship "Dagestan".

2013. There was a transfer of two strategic submarines pr. 955 "Borei" ("Yury Dolgoruky" and "Alexander Nevsky"). The fleet passed the corvette "Courageous". Laid frigate "Admiral Isakov" and "Admiral Istomin," corvette "Agile", a multi-purpose nuclear submarine K-573 "Novosibirsk". In the same year he was transferred to the Indian Navy aircraft carrier "Vikramaditya" (subjected to a global modernization of aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov").

2014. The fleet adopted two nuclear submarines (multipurpose "Severodvinsk" and strategic "Vladimir Monomakh"), two diesel-electric submarines and corvettes "rack". Laid two new "Boreas" ("Prince Oleg" and "Generalissimo Suvorov"), a multi-purpose "Ash" (K-561 "Krasnoyarsk") and two diesel-electric submarines ("Kolpino" and "Veliky Novgorod")

2015. Laid three corvettes ave. 20380, a multi-purpose nuclear submarine ("Archangel") and strategic submarine missile ave. 955 "Borei" ("Emperor Alexander III"). In order to take two diesel-electric submarine B-262 "Stary Oskol" and B-265, "Krasnodar"

Legend

For the successful completion of each story requires that the ship's name was mentioned twice. Date tab. And the date of transfer of the fleet.
But it does not happen often. Too often, in order not to pay attention to it. There is a suspicious imbalance - about 40 warships laid in 2001-2015. and only 15 received in the system, despite the fact that most of the fifteen was laid in an even earlier period (submarine "Severodvinsk" - was founded in 1993, the ship was "Dagestan" - unfinished in 1991, the head "Northwind" laid in 1996, the story of the head of "Frets" also began in the nineties).
Even the most modest and relatively simple in design at the outfitting ships rusting walls for a decade. Above this it is necessary to work seriously.
The laying still not saying much. Put on the stocks section of the mortgage and screw brass plate - work at night. But it takes time for the completion of the ship, its saturation of weapons and equipment with subsequent check of all systems on the performance and compatibility, no one knows.
For this reason, the commissioning of a nuclear-powered cruiser "Peter the Great" could cost and complexity to surpass the entire string of modern corvettes and frigates. 250-meter giant, twenty-six thousand tons. Two anti-aircraft S-300, two reactors and reserve KTU on conventional fuels, eleven radars, ammunition total - more than 300 missiles for various purposes. It costs a lot. And then we complain about the complete impotence of Russian shipbuilders, which seem to have done nothing over the past two decades.
So what this debate?
If we estimate the number and quality of input into operation of ships, their size, their weapons and the possibility of electronic systems, it would literally. Russian shipbuilding capabilities will not disappear and appear again. Throughout the 25 years they were always about the same level. "Bursts" of activity alternated with brief periods of calm, and everything is repeated again. The ships were built at all times. For example, the legendary submarine "Kursk" was built in just two and a half years (1992-94.).
Finally, it is worth remembering that, along with the ships of the Russian Navy, our shipbuilding industry has had time to build a whole range of combat ships for export, including (in addition to those listed in the table), six missile frigates for the Indian Navy, two patrol boats to Vietnam and 15 submarines. Excluding the works on modernization of previously supplied weapons! For example, all the Indian submarine, one after another, were modernized with the installation of a new hydroacoustic and rearmament in the cruise missiles "Caliber" (export varint Club-S, because "Gauges" were exported for five years before they saw the domestic fleet).
And after such a huge amount of work done naive heard cries of loss experience of building warships, lack of qualified personnel and the shipyards themselves.
Himself Navy also does not disappear, the sailors every day patrolled the world's oceans.
The myth of the period of the decline of the Russian Navy.

The results of 2015 for the Russian Navy: joys and sorrows.

Small pleasures

1) the first (successful) combat use CBRC 3M14 complex "Caliber-NK" and "Caliber-PL", marked the emergence of Russian naval forces of non-nuclear deterrence;

2) a successful transition mezhflotskim two LB films (SSK) was the beginning of the revival of submarine forces of the Black Sea Fleet and the Mediterranean task force;

3) transferred to the Navy after long repairs two "scarce" multipurpose submarines Plaka "Cheetah" and PLAB "Pskov" (SRY "Nerpa" came out from among the outsiders, proving their capacity); in FEP "Zvezda" as at 18.12 is another PLAC ("Kuzbass") was "ready to the test sail with the subsequent transition to OPB";

4) transferred to the Navy after a long renovation in FEP "Zvezda" "protivoavianosny" APKR "Tomsk";

5) just two Premier League (PLAB "Obninsk" and "Nizhny Novgorod") at the end of the year returned to PPB with military service, thereby confirming readiness (status "active") multipurpose nuclear submarine of the Navy of the Russian Federation;

6) completed (terminated) forming a second naval fighter (fighter-bomber) Regiment; Yeysk began retraining flight personnel and technical personnel on the aircraft MiG-29K (UB), whose presence on board the heavy aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov" will allow to classify it as a multi-purpose aircraft carrier;

7) continue to be practiced long hikes warships rank 1: the transition to the Pacific Fleet in the SPM (31.12 - Red Sea) commits GRKR "Varyag" ,. SF with the Arabian Sea (Karachi) and then to the YEN makes BOD "Vice-Admiral Kulakov" (despite the problems encountered in the VTG GEM);

the farthest trek over the years (for the ships of the project) makes (does) the destroyer of the Pacific Fleet "Fast", which reached India (28.12 was in Jakarta on his way back to PPB);

9) continuing "development" Northern Sea Route ships SF - traditional annual trip to the New Siberian Islands completed BOD "Severomorsk" BDK "George" and "Kondopoga";

10) continues to operate on a permanent basis Mediterranean task force (despite the acute shortage of ships 1-2 grade); with the beginning of the Russian military operation in Syria intensity of flights (BS) BDK three fleets (BSF, SF, BF) from Novorossiysk in Tartus has increased significantly.

11) continued the annual "protivoavianosnye" firing cruise missiles SCRC "Granite" and "Volcano" outfits of the two carriers on the SF and the Pacific Fleet, thus demonstrating the potential enemy of the Russian Navy's ability to counteract his "vast" superiority at sea;

12) were laid: APKR Fifth Ave. 08851 ("Archangel") ,. BDK second ave. 11711 ,. third LB films (SSK) ave. 677 (resumed construction), three corvettes pr. 20380 (not the ultimate dream, but at least something).

Related grief

1) TAVKR "Admiral Kuznetsov" is not only updated the air group (at least one link of the MiG-29K), but was never released (headed CAG) on the estimated BS in the Mediterranean Sea;

2) construction of warships of the ocean and far sea zone, including ships BMZ, limited suitable for life in distant waters, were transferred to the Navy just two LB films (SSK) ave. 06 363 total displacement of 4,600 tons (two.);

3) Do not place the promised transfer of the navy frigates head (TFR) ave. 22350 and 11356;

4) terminated the contract for the "Mistral" - ships of this class domestic buildings will still very long (despite the sharp rejection of the aesthetics of French DVKD author never considered their presence in the Russian Navy odd - "Mistral" would be very helpful for the development of amphibious Forces of the new sample);

5) due to the termination of supply (short supply) main engines imported and the transition to the production of domestic counterparts a few years halted construction of ships ave. 22350, 11356, 20385;

6) extended for a third year of trial operation head APKR ave. 885 LB films and the head (SSK) ave. 677;

7) is not transferred to the Navy and not even begun sea trials (mooring - with 09.10) cerebral BDK ave. 11711 "Ivan Gren";

due to the inability to perform timely VTG to the end of the year turned out to be chained to the dock (in varying degrees) Three BOD ("Levchenko", "Shaposhnikov", "Severomorsk") and the destroyer "aggressively", except for a long time standing in repair "Tributs" and "Chabanenko" - as a result of 11 (of 11) class ships, "the destroyer" combat-ready, only five (45%) (despite the fact that "Ushakov" there is no information);

9) due to problems with imported engines (see. P. 5) turned out to be a long time out of work, both TFR pr. 11540;

10) after the fire 04.17.2015 for unknown reasons stopped going to sea, "Guarding" - the head Corvette pr. 20380.

Russia's Navy expects to receive 42 new ships and vessels and another 15 will be laid down, the head of the Navy's shipbuilding management department, Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said aired by the Russian News Service radio station on Saturday. "In 2016 we are planning to get 42 surface combatant ships, boats and fleet support ships," he said. "Also, we have plans to lay down 15 warships, boats and support ships." Also, Tryapichnikov said the multipurpose strike frigate Admiral Gorshkov incorporating stealth technologies would become operational in the Russian Navy in 2016 after tests.

Six conventional submarines to be built for Pacific Fleet


A series of six conventional submarines (project 636) will be built for the Pacific Fleet, Chief of the Russian Navy's shipbuilding management department Captain 1st Rank Vladimir Tryapichnikov said on Saturday, aired by the Russian News Service radio station .

"In the perspective the Navy is making attempts and, evidently, they should find a confirmation in construction of another six submarines (project 636), which would go to the Pacific Fleet," he said.

Interview of Navy commander to Echo-Moskovski:

http://vpk.name/news/133022_nachalnik_upravleniya_korablestroeniya_vmf_v_intervyu_eho_moskvyi_soobshil_o_ryade_programm_po_razvitiyu_flota.html

The main points are the following:
-Design of arctic patrol ship is ready. 2 will be ordered. They will be at the same time: icebreaker, tug and patrol boat
-There is an element of Ekranoplan development in the program till 2050
-The project 22160 Vassily Bikov is designed mainly for anti-piracy patrol. 6 will be built. Armament will include large and small caliber guns, helicopter and fast boat. Vessel does not need to carry missiles and show Andreesvki flag
-Admiral Nakhimov will be ready 2017-2018 and will be good for a further 35 years of service
-4 of the 8 large antisubmarine boats (he is probably talking about Udaloy class) will have an armament upgrade
-A Universal Landing Ship (something like Mistral) will be built
-An aircraft carrier is contemplated for 2026-2027

The Navy of Russia in 2030 will get a nuclear aircraft carrier

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160116/1360735512.html

interersting:

The head of Department of shipbuilding of the Navy did not specify a displacement of a promising aircraft carrier ship. "It's either a light carrier and this vehicle will be based on the platform of the promising destroyer "Lider", or it will ship larger displacement" – listed options Trapeznikov.

What kind of fighters then will be in an air-wing Yak-141 M2? ?

Russian Navy: noise submarines type "Lada" is 10 times lower than that of the project 636 submarines

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2592426

MOSCOW, Jan. 16. / TASS /. Noise of non-nuclear submarines of the fourth generation of "Lada" (Project 677) is reduced by 10 times compared to their predecessors 636 project. This is the radio "Russian news service," said the head of the Russian Navy ship captain Vladimir rag-pickers.

"There adequately designed submarine 677 project" Harmony ". She is now undergoing trial operation in the Northern Fleet. Any questions, but when they are closed, finished trial operation, adjusted the working design documentation, the operating instructions - this is a serious underwater boat, which will have the noise level is lower than the currently possess submarines 636 project ", - he said the rag-pickers, speaking of the head submarine" Saint Petersburg ". "And now we are building in parallel two other submarines of this project. This is the" Great Luke "and" Kronstadt ", which are constructed taking into account those comments, which are revealed in the trial operation of the head of the boat," - said the representative of the fleet. show more

Russian Navy: comments during the operation of the submarine project "Ash" took into account other vehicles

http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/2592324

MOSCOW, Jan. 16. / TASS /. All comments identified during the pilot operation of the parent submarine Project 885 "Ash" ("Severodvinsk") will be included in the draft of the second in a ship of this series - "Kazan" and other series of ships being built for the project 885M.

This is the radio "Russian news service," said the head of the ship of the Russian Navy Captain First Rank Vladimir rag-pickers. "There were shortcomings and remarks which were studied and eliminated. Today we have completed the trial operation and received a serious submarine. He solves his tasks with great success", - he said, speaking of the "Severodvinsk".

Rag-pickers noted that all the comments raised during the trial operation "Severodvinsk", made in the design documentation and taken into account in the construction of multi-purpose serial submarines. "All defects will be corrected, and soon we'll get a balanced modernized ship, which lay the basis for the parent project -" Severodvinsk ", - said the rag-pickers. Multi-purpose submarine "Severodvinsk", planted in 1993, was transferred to a military trial operation in late 2013 and is now in the Northern Fleet. Next submarine "Kazan", is already under construction on the updated draft 885M. It was founded in 2009, the Navy plans to get it in 2017.

Chief GRU a few weeks ago.. And now this..

Russian Navy Commander Recovers After Surgery In Hospital
http://mil.today/2016/Personnel1/

http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-russias-next-generation-nuclear-submarines-14295

"Ivan Gren" landing ship

PapaDragon wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:The Navy of Russia in 2030 will get a nuclear aircraft carrier

http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20160116/1360735512.html

interersting:

The head of Department of shipbuilding of the Navy did not specify a displacement of a promising aircraft carrier ship. "It's either a light carrier and this vehicle will be based on the platform of the promising destroyer "Lider", or it will ship larger displacement" – listed options Trapeznikov.

What kind of fighters then will be in an air-wing Yak-141 M2? ?

Going with "Lider" based carrier would be very smart approach. That way they will be able to avoid "white elephant" scenario. Many small carriers are much better than few big ones.

Agreed, I am still deeply convinced that in Russia´s case of aircraft carriers/small AC but 6-8 and resuming/updating Yak-141 makes more sensed then one or big 2 ACs.

George1 wrote:Rosatom Offers MoD to Create Arctic Ice-Breaker-Based HQ

Russia's nuclear agency Rosatom has proposed to the country's Defense Ministry to create an Arctic floating command headquarters based on an ice-breaker, Rosatomflot Deputy Director General Stanislav Golovinskiy said.

MOSCOW (Sputnik) — According to Golovinskiy, the ice-breaker was decommissioned in 2006, however it will be able to operate for 20 more years after repairs.

"We appealed to the defense minister. Both the [Rosatom's] director general [Sergey Kirienko] and the chairman of the Supervisory Board [Boris Gryzlov] offered to consider the possibility of creating a floating command post in the Arctic region based on the atomic ice-breaker, the Sovetskiy Soyuz," Golovinskiy said at the Russian Geographic Society headquarters.

The Sovetskiy Soyuz (Soviet Union) ice-breaker's repairs are expected to be completed in 2016.

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20160128/1033824140/russia-arctic-rosatom-hq.html#ixzz3yX06scK1

with extra drones/choppers?

Re carriers, people talk about big ones as if its just some cock measuring activity.
But its not.

As you build larger, you get a bigger internal capacity for the metal and expense - proportionally speaking.
Thats why oil tankers (which dont need to get thro Suez etc) are so huge.

Ofcourse there is a risk if a single huge carrier got hit. But there are strong arguments in favour of 90k, 100k ton carriers. The US looked at more smaller carriers, but deemed it too expensive, I understand.

GarryB wrote:

Agreed, I am still deeply convinced that in Russia´s case of aircraft carriers/small AC but 6-8 and resuming/updating Yak-141 makes more sensed then one or big 2 ACs.

Going forward I think medium sized carriers with EM cats makes the most sense and reviving the Yak-141 is not really a good idea... it would only make sense with very small carriers... if you talk about cost alone for each US super carrier... costing 6-10 billion per vessel sounds like a lot of money... and for sure it is, but with all the support vessels and infrastructure that needs to be assigned to each carrier big or small it is actually only a small fraction of the total cost of a carrier battle group.

Saving a bit of money by making them small and putting a short ranged fighter on board is no compensation because having 6-8 carrier groups is going to be rather more expensive than having 2-4 with larger more capable carriers with larger more capable aircraft.

Most importantly getting a decent modern AWACS out to sea, with the added bonus of having a relatively small AWACS aircraft you could sell to smaller friendly nations and to use domestically to fill gaps or boost performance.

Whether they have PAK FA or a light 5th gen fighter on board if they are CATOL (conventional and assisted take off and Landing) it just makes more sense than pouring money into making something that can hover fly fast enough and far enough to be useful.

VSTOL means able to have more thrust than weight at takeoff... to have long range with a decent payload means heavy... too much contradiction except for short range lightly armed interceptor... and with carriers you want range.

Depending of course on your strategy. Russian fleet is so far not foreseen to wage colonial wars and change not compliant governments using hr Goebbels cr@p propaganda. v

I can imagine that leader based A/C task is ASW and provide air defences to fleet task groups based on already foreseen Leader based ones. So no extra costs and less mission compromising to a scenarios if AC is lost.

BTW unfortunately unlikely Yak-141 will be resumed and I wonder how many PAK-FA derivatives can be based on 20-30k ship?

PapaDragon wrote:

Firebird wrote:Re carriers, people talk about big ones as if its just some cock measuring activity.
But its not.

As you build larger, you get a bigger internal capacity for the metal and expense - proportionally speaking.
Thats why oil tankers (which dont need to get thro Suez etc) are so huge.

Ofcourse there is a risk if a single huge carrier got hit. But there are strong arguments in favour of 90k, 100k ton carriers. The US looked at more smaller carriers, but deemed it too expensive, I understand.

In this scenario small carriers will be based on Leader type nuclear destroyer which will drastically lower construction and exploitation costs.

Interesting how deep needs to be hull redesigned to make if an effective AC? Originally leader is 14-16k ton class. So they would need to make 24-30?

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Agreed, I am still deeply convinced that in Russia´s case of aircraft carriers/small AC but 6-8 and resuming/updating Yak-141 makes more sensed then one or big 2 ACs.

Going forward I think medium sized carriers with EM cats makes the most sense and reviving the Yak-141 is not really a good idea... it would only make sense with very small carriers... if you talk about cost alone for each US super carrier... costing 6-10 billion per vessel sounds like a lot of money... and for sure it is, but with all the support vessels and infrastructure that needs to be assigned to each carrier big or small it is actually only a small fraction of the total cost of a carrier battle group.

Saving a bit of money by making them small and putting a short ranged fighter on board is no compensation because having 6-8 carrier groups is going to be rather more expensive than having 2-4 with larger more capable carriers with larger more capable aircraft.

Most importantly getting a decent modern AWACS out to sea, with the added bonus of having a relatively small AWACS aircraft you could sell to smaller friendly nations and to use domestically to fill gaps or boost performance.

Whether they have PAK FA or a light 5th gen fighter on board if they are CATOL (conventional and assisted take off and Landing) it just makes more sense than pouring money into making something that can hover fly fast enough and far enough to be useful.

VSTOL means able to have more thrust than weight at takeoff... to have long range with a decent payload means heavy... too much contradiction except for short range lightly armed interceptor... and with carriers you want range.

Depending of course on your  strategy. Russian fleet is  so far not foreseen to wage colonial wars and change not compliant governments using hr Goebbels cr@p propaganda. v

I can imagine that leader based A/C task is ASW and provide air defences to fleet task groups based on already foreseen Leader based ones. So no extra costs and less mission compromising to a scenarios if AC is lost.

BTW unfortunately unlikely Yak-141 will be resumed and I wonder how many PAK-FA derivatives can be based on 20-30k ship?

PapaDragon wrote:

Firebird wrote:Re carriers, people talk about big ones as if its just some cock measuring activity.
But its not.

As you build larger, you get a bigger internal capacity for the metal and expense - proportionally speaking.
Thats why oil tankers (which dont need to get thro Suez etc) are so huge.

Ofcourse there is a risk if a single huge carrier got hit. But there are strong arguments in favour of 90k, 100k ton carriers. The US looked at more smaller carriers, but deemed it too expensive, I understand.

In this scenario small carriers will be based on Leader type nuclear destroyer which will drastically lower construction and exploitation costs.

Interesting how deep needs to be hull redesigned to make if an effective AC? Originally leader is 14-16k ton class. So they would need to make 24-30?

Imo Leader is not viable platform for any type of carrier, unless maybe some kind of helicopter carrier, its simply way to small, 200m long 15ish k ton displacement. Even ill fated Kiev class was 270+ m long and it couldnt rly support anything but VTOLs.

Yak 141 based project or anything of the sort for that matter i too belive is out of the picture for long time.

Militarov wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
In this scenario small carriers will be based on Leader type nuclear destroyer which will drastically lower construction and exploitation costs.

Interesting how deep needs to be hull redesigned to make if an effective AC? Originally leader is 14-16k ton class. So they would need to make 24-30?

Imo Leader is not viable platform for any type of carrier, unless maybe some kind of helicopter carrier, its simply way to small, 200m long 15ish k ton displacement. Even ill fated Kiev class was 270+ m long and it couldnt rly support anything but VTOLs.

Yak 141 based project or anything of the sort for that matter i too belive is out of the picture for long time.[/quote]

Well words about Leader based AC were of Russian admiral not mine

GunshipDemocracy wrote:

Militarov wrote:

GunshipDemocracy wrote:
In this scenario small carriers will be based on Leader type nuclear destroyer which will drastically lower construction and exploitation costs.

Interesting how deep needs to be hull redesigned to make if an effective AC? Originally leader is 14-16k ton class. So they would need to make 24-30?

Imo Leader is not viable platform for any type of carrier, unless maybe some kind of helicopter carrier, its simply way to small, 200m long 15ish k ton displacement. Even ill fated Kiev class was 270+ m long and it couldnt rly support anything but VTOLs.

Yak 141 based project or anything of the sort for that matter i too belive is out of the picture for long time.

[/quote]

Well words about Leader based AC were  of Russian admiral not mine