Project 949A: Oscar-II

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Mindstorm wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:So if we use your given number to modernize six Oscars would cost about 1.5M USD.... a single Yasen costs 1.6B-1.7B USD.
1 Ruble currently equals 0.13 USD.

Contract for serial production of 4 пр. 885M is in force for a fixed amount of 164 billions ruble with the lead submarine of the Ясень-М costing 47 billions ruble.

Pag. 6
https://www.minfin.ru/common/upload/library/2011/11/Materialy_SMI_ot_10.11.2011.pdf

Therefore at the exchange rate you have named a serial пр. 885M cost 533 ml. dollars with the lead ship costing 611 millions dollars.

Well the document cites a "source" for that price.

Is there anything more than a unamed source to back that up, something from the shipyard or the government saying this price is accurate.

State Contract number 3/1/2/0618/ГК-11-ДГОЗ of the 09-11-2011 with ОСК.

Allocation of funds for each project you can read here.

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/1812512

As said several times in the past the problems in those laughable attempts lie, as always, in the cheap very low level, counter-will propaganda used by foreign media or internal media directly controled by what today are defined by Fedreation's law as "foreign agents".

Those comical sources using the archaic method of citing one the other to recriprocally validate themselves present to simpleton scace knowledgeable readers a picture totally distorted of a subject or event related to the Federation so to slowly destroy its image and the will of its cytizen to contribute to its grow and improvement.

That is an example of this low level practice linked to the subject in question ,that with time has been even cited as a fact.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/security/2019/05/design-flaws-delay-russias-most-high-tech-nuclear-submarine

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/05/24/russias-high-tech-nuclear-submarine-delayed-by-design-flaws-a65739

https://www.ng.ru/armies/2019-05-20/100_jasen200519.html

This provide a proof of the lowest level of the typical western type propaganda machine

949 AMs may NOT have Kaliber missiles:

http://www.hisutton.com/Update-on-Russian-Navy-Pr949AM-Modernized-OSCAR-II.html


hmmmmmmm. Did they partially convert? Is it possible they are keeping some Granit for its sheer power for a coup de grace on large targets?

I thought that Orel was only repaired, not upgraded? AFAIK the Irkutsk is the first actual 949AM conversion.

I guess its possible that they might have installed prototype sleeves to the Orels missile tubes to certify the new hardware but there is no way to know, and we won't get any confirmation unless we hear of a 949 launching an Oniks or Zircon. Launching a kalibre won't really be a confirmation as these can be fired via torp tube.

Not holding my breath.

mnztr wrote:949 AMs may NOT have Kaliber missiles:

http://www.hisutton.com/Update-on-Russian-Navy-Pr949AM-Modernized-OSCAR-II.html


hmmmmmmm. Did they partially convert? Is it possible they are keeping some Granit for its sheer power for a coup de grace on large targets?

Big_Gazza wrote:I thought that Orel was only repaired, not upgraded? AFAIK the Irkutsk is the first actual 949AM conversion.

I guess its possible that they might have installed prototype sleeves to the Orels missile tubes to certify the new hardware but there is no way to know, and we won't get any confirmation unless we hear of a 949 launching an Oniks or Zircon.  Launching a kalibre won't really be a confirmation as these can be fired via torp tube.

Not holding my breath.

The guy who write that has no idea

Orel was just repaired. Is not a 949AM submarine

Only Oscar II in modernizartion is "Irkutsk" in Pacific Fleet. After "Irkutsk" end modernization in Zvezda n 2022-2023, then "Chelyabisnk" will be modernized until about 2025

Oscar´s of North Fleet will be replaced soon by Yasen´s, starting this year, "Voronezh" is out of service and the crew is on board of Yasen "Kazan", conducting the sea trials

AMCXXL wrote:The guy who write that has no idea

Orel was just repaired. Is not a 949AM submarine

You're absolutely right. Already told Mr Sutton a few times on Twitter he was mistaken about the K-266, this one only got a "VTG" and no modernisation but he doesn't seem (want?) to understand...

Dorfmeister wrote:

AMCXXL wrote:The guy who write that has no idea

Orel was just repaired. Is not a 949AM submarine

You're absolutely right. Already told Mr Sutton a few times on Twitter he was mistaken about the K-266, this one only got a "VTG" and no modernisation but he doesn't seem (want?) to understand...

https://iz.ru/1017398/dmitrii-boltenkov/ledovyi-shchit-kak-usilivaiut-moshch-severnogo-flota-rossii
Also, the submarine forces of the North fleet include boats of project 949A. Most likely, these nuclear submarines will not receive such modernization, which, for example, is being carried out in the Far East on the Irkutsk submarine. Therefore, they will be replaced by nuclear submarines of projects 885 and 885M "Yasen".
The head Severodvinsk has been part of the fleet since 2014. Attack boat Kazan is also due to enter this year, followed by four more submarines. And by the end of this decade, five "Yasen" will become the basis of the submarine forces.

An un modernised Antei carries only 8 less missiles than a Yasen and a modernised Antei carries more than twice what a Yasen can carry. As a replacement for the Antei the Yasen is crap. This whole story of wreaks of fifth columnist bullshit, they need more submarines and they need them now, there is no time to replace older ones with new ones that cannot adequately fill the role expected of them.

The-thing-next-door wrote:An un modernised Antei carries only 8 less missiles than a Yasen and a modernised Antei carries more than twice what a Yasen can carry. As a replacement for the Antei the Yasen is crap. This whole story of wreaks of fifth columnist bullshit, they need more submarines and they need them now, there is no time to replace older ones with new ones that cannot adequately fill the role expected of them.

Oscars are loud as fuck compared to Yasens and are approaching their expiration date

They can have 10 times as many missiles, it doesn't change the fact that time moves on

The Oscars were needed at a time when missiles with a chance of sinking US ships were huge and heavy... 24 missiles does not sound like a lot but the Kirov class ships only carry 20 missiles each, and the Oscars can also carry about 40 odd torpedo sized weapons too.

Yasen is much smaller and lighter and much more versatile... Oscar had no capability against anything except ships and aircraft carriers... their missiles were anti carrier missiles only and could not be used against subs or shore targets... unlike the missiles in Yasen which can attack shore and submerged targets as well as ships.

The Yasen is an excellent sub, the Oscars were single role vessels that were needed... these days there are a few uses they could be modified for but they are very big subs.

Talk of new missile types to replace the torpedo calibre vertically launched missiles with wider and longer weapons that fill the UKSK tubes rather better with improved performance... well with Granit tubes that are even bigger the potential for new 3-4,000km range Iskander like missiles using scramjet propulsion for more flexibility and much higher speed and better range and they start to get interesting... because land based truck mounted versions could be developed in parallel for use in Europe and the Middle East and the Pacific to target ships and land targets throughout the area with a very long range and very fast weapon...

GarryB wrote:

Yasen is much smaller and lighter and much more versatile...

And as such is not a replacement for a missile sub like the Antei but rather a more versatile successor to the Schuka that expands appon the Schucka's versatility.

The Yasen would be brilliant for hitting targets in defended waters and hunting enemy submarines, but it's stealth, versatility and many more of its advantages are just wasted resources if you plan on using it as a missile sub and you would be better off with a loud half arsed conversion of an Akula with no weapons other than its missiles.

Oscar had no capability against anything except ships and aircraft carriers... their missiles were anti carrier missiles only and could not be used against subs or shore targets... unlike the missiles in Yasen which can attack shore and submerged targets as well as ships.

So what are all of thoes torpedo tubes for, are you going to tell me that they use them as winewracks?

Oscars were single role vessels that were needed... these days there are a few uses they could be modified for but they are very big subs.

Land attack, anti ship warfare, Poseidon carries, special operations, but then none of these are important are they.



The problem is that in order to get a large number of cruise missiles deployed on submarines using Yasens is that you would need atleast 50 Yasens an that is only 1600 missiles for the cost of building 50 Yasens. You could get that many missiles my modifying the Akulas and Anteis in reserve and don't try to tell me that that would cost more than 50 Yasens.

If you are going to build a missile sub you should not bother to include all of thoes expensive SSN features seeing as it will be atleast 500km away from anything hostile.

And as such is not a replacement for a missile sub like the Antei but rather a more versatile successor to the Schuka that expands appon the Schucka's versatility.

But don't you understand... it is like the Lada class SSK replacement for the Kilo class... better sensors better equipment... much smaller crew and same or better armament.

The Yasen is smaller and lighter and potentially carries 32 Zircon missiles... 1,000km+ range mach 9 missiles... compared with 24 Granit missiles with perhaps a range of 500-600km and a flight speed of Mach 2.

It is worse than that because the 24 Granits would probably operate together in a single wolf pack and could be expected to be detected by AWACS at reasonable ranges and engagements to shoot them down would start at quite a distance... they are difficult powerful targets but the defences they were trying to penetrate were and are the strongest in the western world... a dozen might get through half the time... with a quarter getting through more often than not...

With Zircon at the moment a flight of four missiles could be launched at each carrier group to hit the carrier and a cruiser or two with a highly likely chance of getting multiple kills... generally forcing the carrier group to withdraw... which means an equivalent loadout could be 16 zircons and perhaps 8 anti sub ballistic missiles and 8 land attack missiles with nuclear warheads and perhaps a range of 5,000km... which is better range than most early Soviet SSBNs could manage...

but it's stealth, versatility and many more of its advantages are just wasted resources if you plan on using it as a missile sub and you would be better off with a loud half arsed conversion of an Akula with no weapons other than its missiles.

Stealth and versatility makes it even more useful for any job you care to set for it... it is fully multirole... it can hit carrier groups and enemy subs and enemy land based targets all in a single mission.

So what are all of thoes torpedo tubes for, are you going to tell me that they use them as winewracks?

After launching its missiles it can close in and fire torpedos at the damaged ships for the purpose of sinking them... their 650mm torpedos could be fired from fairly large distances and carried a seriously large HE wallop.

Land attack, anti ship warfare, Poseidon carries, special operations, but then none of these are important are they.

Currently they use Delta III ex SSBN subs for special operations, and land attack and anti ship warfare can be performed by newer cheaper to operate models with smaller crew sizes and newer equipment...

The problem is that in order to get a large number of cruise missiles deployed on submarines using Yasens is that you would need atleast 50 Yasens an that is only 1600 missiles for the cost of building 50 Yasens. You could get that many missiles my modifying the Akulas and Anteis in reserve and don't try to tell me that that would cost more than 50 Yasens.

If you are going to build a missile sub you should not bother to include all of thoes expensive SSN features seeing as it will be atleast 500km away from anything hostile.

If you want to carry lots of cruise missiles at sea that will be fired from 500km range or more then a simple container ship could be hired when needed with stacks of shipping containers placed on the decks much much cheaper... one ship for thousands of missiles... you could even use a roll on roll off ferry type ship with trucks to drive the missiles inland for launches...

GarryB wrote:
The Yasen is smaller and lighter and potentially carries 32 Zircon missiles... 1,000km+ range mach 9 missiles... compared with 24 Granit missiles with perhaps a range of 500-600km and a flight speed of Mach 2.

They upgraded Antei class vessels can carry 72 Oniks missiels which is good enough to wipe out most battlegroups or entire smaller navies, it's acoustic stealth is irrelevant when it is hanging back at the maximum effective range of its weapons.

Having superior technology is no excuse for reducing numbers of missiles, the Russian navy needs more missiles more than anything else and so a new class of proper missile submarines should have already been in through trials by now, but until then the least they could do is to try and modernise their current missile submarines. Maintaining a constantly inadequate number of submarines by replacing perfectly goof submarines with newer ones that are not even designed for the same purpose is retarded.

The logical thing to do would be to restore the all of Akulas and Anteis for use as missile submarines, that way they might actually get to use the missiles they spent so much effort developing.

I would be fine if they were replacing each Antei with 3 Yasens but one to one is just disgraceful, they need missile numbers not versatility.

If you want to carry lots of cruise missiles at sea that will be fired from 500km range or more then a simple container ship could be hired when needed with stacks of shipping containers placed on the decks much much cheaper... one ship for thousands of missiles... you could even use a roll on roll off ferry type ship with trucks to drive the missiles inland for launches...

The launch of a 200 missile salvo from a cargo ship would be a lengthy and difficult process and would require significant preparation, not to mention how impractical it would be to hunt enemy battlegroups in a cargo ship that would most likely be targeted even if the enemy did not suspect it's true intent would be.

It would also be immensely difficult to get it within firing range of enemy cities during wartime considering that it would be bulky and defenceless.

I have honestly heard enough of the shipping container crap, presenting it as an excuse for nor building more missile carrying warships is simply shameful.

I also find if funny considering your typical nonsense about how Russia should reflect your il conceived ethics, yet here you are promoting thier use a devious first strike weapon and do not try to tell me that a weapon that can only be safely deployed in peacetime is not a first strike weapon.

The-thing-next-door wrote:...upgraded Antei class vessels can carry 72 Oniks...

No such ship exists and none have been upgraded so far

The-thing-next-door wrote:...The logical thing to do would be to restore the all of Akulas and Anteis for use as missile submarines...

Those boats have reached their expiration date

Only way to increase the number currently is to order more Yasens

PapaDragon wrote:

Those boats have reached their expiration date

Only way to increase the number currently is to order more Yasens

Oh sure just build 100 Yasens in a few years, that's not going to bankrupt the navy.

If the older submarines are too badly damaged then just dig up the blueprints and build more, whatever it costs it will be a hell of alot less than a million Yasens.

The-thing-next-door wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:

Those boats have reached their expiration date

Only way to increase the number currently is to order more Yasens

Oh sure just build 100 Yasens in a few years, that's not going to bankrupt the navy.

If the older submarines are too badly damaged then just dig up the blueprints and build more, whatever it costs it will be a hell of alot less than a million Yasens.

Oh sure just build 100 Oscars in a few years, that's not going to bankrupt the navy.

Do you even listen to yourself?

Oscars are finished so deal with it already, you are like that guy Tsavo with his An-22 boner

They should keep building Yasens until production of something else reaches satisfactory pace or until they build enough Yasens to fully stock the fleet, whichever comes first

Husky project still isn't fully designed let alone started construction so for​ a foreseeable future Yasen will be go-to platform

Also Yasen just started reaching satisfactory production pace so stopping it at just 12 would be idiotic and wasteful

Isos wrote:12 means 6 for each fleet which is enough for a 140m class sub.

With 20 husky that's 16 nuclear sub in each fleet. I doubt they want more than that.

The project is started for a long time now and they already have experience with new stuff on Borei and Yasen M. It won't take a lit to start.

They thought the same once before

They stopped building Akulas because they thought that they will be moving on quickly to Yasens which was even further along back then than Husky is now

They ended up with two decades gap between sub models

Last thing they need is to repeat the same mistake with Yasens that they already made with Akulas

Make sure that first Husky is built and ​tested before discontinuing Yasen, everything else is massive gamble that they can't afford

Isos wrote:Yasen was started and would have replaced the Akula. The economic crisis stoped it just like it would have stoped more Akulas. The issue wasn't which model they build but the money.

Today they have a strong economy and everything needed to start Husky.

Husky hasn't even been fully designed

So until first one is done it will be Yasens

Better to have too many big ones than not enough small ones