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    Attack Helicopters combat survivability

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    Vann7

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:27 am

    max steel wrote:can we target Ka-52 and Mi-28 with American stinger manpads ?

    Same goes for Apache 64D and Chinooks can they defend themselves against Verba , Igla manpads ?

    The latest MI-28NM i think is the name.. have the best capabilities of any attack helicopter
    to face Stinger or Igla-S manpads.. Stinger are guided by radio command and heat in the last
    part... Radio communications can be jammed easily ,just like drones ,stealing away the control
    of the missile from the operator.. that is to block any update.. and can deploy decoys that simulate the helicopter infra red signal.. I also have heard of EMP reactive defenses.. that
    damage the small sensors and electronics of any missile ,so it doesn't explode near the helicopter.

    Against laser guided missiles ,there is also something RUssia have developed and have seen
    some videos.. it looks like a decoy that simulate the same lazer used to guide the missile..
    the decoy is fired in another direction of the helicopter and the missile follows it.

    And there is of course tactics ,things that never fail.. If you will be sending an Mi-28 to any warzone you better be sure it fly low as much as possible to avoid being on light of sight of any one with a manpad.. then you send high flying drones to give you an early look at the zone you need to attack.. this will distract the people with the manpads.. then later you send high flying planes to try get more attention of the manpad users.. then you will have the army using artillery on enemy positions so that they needs to go inside buildings for cover ,limiting the use of manpads through windows.. then after you have so many distractions ,you send attack helicopters to fire through windows .

    If you combine army with snipers or artillery+ support planes + drones + attack hellicopters ,it will be very difficult,if not impossible to hit anything with a manpad.. because you need to
    stay standing still for some times ,exposing yourself either to drones attacks ,to snipers or to Attack hellicopters or combat planes.

    Just think about that.. the Syrian Army rarely lose a combat plane to manpads.. they combine
    army with tanks with combat planes flying high.with drones and attack hellicopters too. and they do not have any advance hardware at all.. their airforce is soviet hardware. Most Syrian
    Airforce casualties have been to Turkey and Israel airforces and anti air defenses deployed near Syrian Borders.
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    collegeboy16

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:07 pm

    the Americans have made a helo-based obscurant launcher, kinda looks like the one on the Armatas. when a rocket launch is detected they will pop ir-blocking smoke grenades between the helo and the launcher, leaving the helo free to reorient itself to(from) the threat to engage(or run).
    more like a hardkill interceptor meant to destroy teh rocket itself... Embarassed


    Last edited by collegeboy16 on Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:26 pm

    collegeboy16 wrote:the Americans have made a helo-based obscurant launcher, kinda looks like the one on the Armatas. when a rocket launch is detected they will pop ir-blocking smoke grenades between the helo and the launcher, leaving the helo free to reorient itself to(from) the threat to engage(or run).

    That would not work for helicopters in 99% of the time.

    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:36 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    max steel wrote:can we target Ka-52 and Mi-28 with American stinger manpads ?

    Same goes for Apache 64D and Chinooks can they defend themselves against Verba , Igla manpads ?

    The latest MI-28NM  i think is the name.. have the best capabilities of any attack helicopter
    to face Stinger or Igla-S manpads..  Stinger are guided by radio command and heat in the last
    part... Radio communications can be jammed easily ,just like drones ,stealing away the control
    of the missile from the operator.. that is to block any update.. and can deploy decoys that simulate the helicopter infra red signal..  I also have heard of EMP reactive defenses.. that
    damage the small sensors and electronics of any missile ,so it doesn't explode near the helicopter.

    No. There is no "radio command guidance" for the Stinger. It uses proportional navigation in the first phase. Not jammable.


    Vann7 wrote:Just think about that.. the Syrian Army rarely lose a combat plane to manpads.. they combine
    army with tanks with combat planes flying high.with drones and attack hellicopters too. and they do not have any advance hardware at all.. their airforce is soviet hardware. Most Syrian
    Airforce casualties have been to Turkey and Israel airforces and anti air defenses deployed near Syrian Borders.

    "Syrian Army"? The Syrian Air Force has lost three aircraft to Turkish and Israeli air defences: One MiG-23, one Mi-17 and one Su-24. They have lost many more to various rebel air defences, AAA, MANPADS, SAMs.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:13 pm

    can we target Ka-52 and Mi-28 with American stinger manpads ?

    Same goes for Apache 64D and Chinooks can they defend themselves against Verba , Igla manpads ?

    Ka-52 and Mi-28NM will be fitted with DIRCMs... which are basically laser beams in the IR and UV wavelength that dazzle IR and optical seekers and blind them.

    Technically Apaches and Chinooks fitted with DIRCMS should also be able to defend themselves from such missiles.

    Missiles like Pantsir-S1 are command guide and SOSNA are laser beam riding so DIRCMs will be ineffective as the missiles will not be looking at the target, they will be looking at the launch platform.

    No. There is no "radio command guidance" for the Stinger. It uses proportional navigation in the first phase. Not jammable.

    Most modern IR guided missiles use proportional homing... it just means leading a target so instead of flying directly toward the target where it currently is, it determines which direction it is moving and aims to fly ahead of it.

    For an IR guided weapon imagine yo are launched at a crossing target you turn so the heat target is in the centre of your view and fly straight at it but it is moving rapidly to the right, so instead of turning smoothly right to follow the target as it moves you turn much harder until the target is no longer moving in your field of view. That means that the rocket motor propelling you forward must be moving you closer to the target but as the target is not moving in your field of view you are getting closer and closer and will hit... or run out of fuel.

    In practical terms it means instead of your warhead hitting the tail pipe it will more likely hit the centre of the target and do rather more damage...



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    Cucumber Khan

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  Cucumber Khan on Sat Jul 04, 2015 1:39 pm

    And when I said "not jammable", of course the Stinger can be decoyed by flares. But you can't "jam" it.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Attack Helicopters combat survivability

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:05 pm

    Technically a DIRCMS system actually jams a passive IR or optics guidance system by shining an IR laser and overwhelming the seeker with IR energy so it can't see the original target any more...


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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