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    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1

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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2013 11:43 am

    Nice.

    I was thinking of getting a Saiga-12, but with all the new weapon development I might wait and see what they come up with... perhaps a modular multi calibre weapon...
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 30, 2013 5:06 am

    Currently I am thinking about buying a Baikal MP654K air pistol.

    From what I have read it is an almost perfect replica of a PMM pistol including in terms of weight and materials and feel and is made at the same factory where the real PMMs are made.

    Not exactly cheap, but much easier to buy here than the real pistol as ownership of pistols here is restricted.

    Would love to buy a silenced PM... or a silenced APSB in replica form of course as the real things would be lots of red tape and bollocks to buy.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:38 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 22 AEK971-900x538
    anks to reader Alexandr in Russia, we have a new look at a prototype for the AEK-971 rifle, this time the military 6П68 variant. The Russian armed forces have used variants of the AK-47 rifle ever since the end of World War II, and the design is starting to show its age especially compared to the latest advances from the Belgians and Israelis. The latest design uses a polymer receiver instead of the old stamped sheet metal, a telescoping stock instead of the folding design, and uses the same balanced recoil system as the AN-94 (which uses two pistons and two gas chambers synchronized through a gear to reduce recoil).
    Looks pretty interesting. I believe I heard this was going to be competing against the AK-12 and other Izmash designs.
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    Post  Regular on Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:07 pm

    AEK sure looks very interesting. Why can't they can't sell AN-94 or AEK to other countries or modified ones for civilian market
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:28 pm

    AFAIK it is cost and complexity... the traditional buyers of Soviet weapons don't want a complex weapon even if it offers better performance.

    Non tradition customers aren't interested in AKs.

    I think the AK12 will offer similar or better performance with the addition of simplicity and only slight increases in cost... and if mass produced might even end up cheaper.

    Balanced recoil systems are not new... it is like adding a gearbox to a rifle design... will need extra care and maintainence but will improve performance.

    The problem is that the main area of performance improvement is in auto fire... which uses up ammo fast and generally used for suppression only rather than actually engaging targets with any precision.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:43 pm

    GarryB wrote:AFAIK it is cost and complexity... the traditional buyers of Soviet weapons don't want a complex weapon even if it offers better performance.

    Non tradition customers aren't interested in AKs.

    I think the AK12 will offer similar or better performance with the addition of simplicity and only slight increases in cost... and if mass produced might even end up cheaper.

    Balanced recoil systems are not new... it is like adding a gearbox to a rifle design... will need extra care and maintainence but will improve performance.

    The problem is that the main area of performance improvement is in auto fire... which uses up ammo fast and generally used for suppression only rather than actually engaging targets with any precision.

    But people who tested AK-107 said it's rugged and reliable design.
    http://glockmeister.livejournal.com/64336.html

    The same person shot AEK-971 and mentioned it broke down.



    I personally think than civilian AN-94 and AEK-971 and 973 are exotic weapons. The new AEK looks like would interest not only Soviet weapon fans. Still civilian version would only differ from regular AK just by looks as it won't have balanced automatics or two-shot capability.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:12 pm

    GarryB wrote:Currently I am thinking about buying a Baikal MP654K air pistol.

    From what I have read it is an almost perfect replica of a PMM pistol including in terms of weight and materials and feel and is made at the same factory where the real PMMs are made.

    Not exactly cheap, but much easier to buy here than the real pistol as ownership of pistols here is restricted.

    Would love to buy a silenced PM... or a silenced APSB in replica form of course as the real things would be lots of red tape and bollocks to buy.
    Can You buy gas pistol version of Baikal in Your country? Or traumatic pistol that shoots rubber balls? Baikal IZH-79 series of gas and traumatic pistols have strong structure not like most pistols in it's class. What are laws about converting weapons or it's a big no no like in most countries?
    Too bad UK is so up-arse about weapon ownership, not a single firing club 80 miles around.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:25 am


    But people who tested AK-107 said it's rugged and reliable design.
    http://glockmeister.livejournal.com/64336.html

    The same person shot AEK-971 and mentioned it broke down.

    I have chatted to a guy that said he has fired the real thing... it is a very good rifle, accurate.

    The problem is that it is more complex and needs to be put together carefully otherwise there are problems.

    If you imagine a car without gears would be simpler, but also less impressive in performance too.

    I personally think than civilian AN-94 and AEK-971 and 973 are exotic weapons. The new AEK looks like would interest not only Soviet weapon fans. Still civilian version would only differ from regular AK just by looks as it won't have balanced automatics or two-shot capability.

    The balanced design should make shooting smoother, but is it worth the extra cost and complexity?

    Izhmash claim the AK12 is as good as their AK-107 in auto shooting but without the complexity and cost of the balanced recoil mechanism.

    Can You buy gas pistol version of Baikal in Your country?

    I can buy the air pistol model without a firearm licence as long as I am over 18... which I am... Smile

    I can buy the real Makarov too, but would need to get a pistol licence which is a bit more effort to get a licence that will allow me to shoot it only at a pistol club. (no pistol hunting in NZ).

    I think I will just get this air pistol as it is very much like a replica of the real thing anyway.

    What are laws about converting weapons or it's a big no no like in most countries?

    Big no no... and I wouldn't want to anyway... I like having 10 fingers and two functioning eyeballs... Smile

    A replica that shoots bbs is fine by me.

    Too bad UK is so up-arse about weapon ownership, not a single firing club 80 miles around.

    The ridiculous thing is that they have stupid strict rules and yet 'shooting incidents' still happen anyway.
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    Post  Regular on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:06 pm

    [quote="GarryB"][quote]

    I have chatted to a guy that said he has fired the real thing... it is a very good rifle, accurate.

    The problem is that it is more complex and needs to be put together carefully otherwise there are problems.

    If you imagine a car without gears would be simpler, but also less impressive in performance too.
    I wonder how more accurate it is in full auto than for against western counterparts?

    The balanced design should make shooting smoother, but is it worth the extra cost and complexity?

    Izhmash claim the AK12 is as good as their AK-107 in auto shooting but without the complexity and cost of the balanced recoil mechanism.
    Well if You think that way, lets presume Russian armed forces would want weapon to be simpler as possible and not heavy on the pocket. There are few situations when You want to use full auto where balanced automatics would really shine, like CQB, but then again I would take AK-9 loaded with SP-6 over any of these weapons. In the field, I would leave full auto to machine gunner.
    AK-12 was tested by Russian shooting professionals, I believe their word that it is more accurate in fully auto than 74 series. There are some worrisome criticism from professionals shooters regards Izhmash management and future, I hope they are wrong.


    I can buy the air pistol model without a firearm licence as long as I am over 18... which I am... Smile

    I can buy the real Makarov too, but would need to get a pistol licence which is a bit more effort to get a licence that will allow me to shoot it only at a pistol club. (no pistol hunting in NZ).
    Thanks for the answer. Interesting, so only sport shooting is allowed.

    I think I will just get this air pistol as it is very much like a replica of the real thing anyway.
    Interesting, all metal one? Cause I've read that new ones have some plastic, 2004 ones are the full metal ones or I'm mixing something? Damn, now I'm interested in owning same pistol, but then again, I can't get it shipped to me, I have to buy it from store and I can't find it!


    Big no no... and I wouldn't want to anyway... I like having 10 fingers and two functioning eyeballs... Smile
    Not advocating this, because criminals are the ones that usually do that, but Baikal gas pistols have very strong structure, gun smiths even make silenced versions of them. Even good weapon can cause terrible injuries, of course risk increases greatly with butchered one. In my country it's still legal grey area when it comes to de-obstructing barrel, You can even do it by cleaning weapon(You can only shoot rubber pellets and other projectiles). Hope no one gets hurt by de-obstructed weapon as, it could become trigger by banning all gas/traumatic pistols. They are life savers.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:50 pm

    I wonder how more accurate it is in full auto than for against western counterparts?

    The thing is that the balanced recoil mechanism really only benefits rifles that have heavy bolt carriers like the standard ak.

    For an M16 there would be no point as there is only the bolt carrier and bolt which are not heavy at all.

    The versions of western rifles with piston rods and heavier bolt carriers designed to make them more reliable might benefit but most of those are AK clones anyway.

    Most western countries demand fire in semi auto anyway except for short range suppression fire so accuracy is the least of their problems in auto mode.

    Soviet/Russian use of full auto tends to be to increase hit probability and the AK12 and AK-107 would probably be a good step for this.

    In the field, I would leave full auto to machine gunner.

    And every military professional in the west would say the same because full auto fire is inaccurate and a waste of ammo... but what if the AK12 is accurate in full auto? I have seen footage of the AEK-971 in burst fire at what appears to be a 100m range and the grouping just looks like a very speeded up 10 shot group of single shots on the paper... if you could manage such groupings on full auto from a standing position then why would you fire single shot at such targets? Get 3-5 hits in a quick burst and really take them down.

    There are some worrisome criticism from professionals shooters regards Izhmash management and future, I hope they are wrong.

    They are definitely wrong as Izhmash has no future... it will be Kalashnikov... Smile

    Thanks for the answer. Interesting, so only sport shooting is allowed.

    Yes, only at a pistol shooting club. It is illegal to have a real pistol with you anywhere except on your way to or from a pistol club or a gunsmith. Not able to be used for hunting or self defence.

    Interesting, all metal one? Cause I've read that new ones have some plastic, 2004 ones are the full metal ones or I'm mixing something?

    AFAIK it is all metal made in the same factory the PMM is made in.

    Damn, now I'm interested in owning same pistol, but then again, I can't get it shipped to me, I have to buy it from store and I can't find it!

    The article that mentioned it was all metal and the right weight and size as the real pistol mentioned they were hard to get...

    Not advocating this, because criminals are the ones that usually do that, but Baikal gas pistols have very strong structure, gun smiths even make silenced versions of them.

    I could certainly not advocate this either, but this air pistol is made of all the same materials as the real pistol. In fact it mentioned in a review article that although the slide can be operated like the real thing it is too heavy to be cycled by the gas cylinder so it doesn't move during firing like some lighter plastic pistols do.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:37 pm

    Regular wrote:
    GarryB wrote:AFAIK it is cost and complexity... the traditional buyers of Soviet weapons don't want a complex weapon even if it offers better performance.

    Non tradition customers aren't interested in AKs.

    I think the AK12 will offer similar or better performance with the addition of simplicity and only slight increases in cost... and if mass produced might even end up cheaper.

    Balanced recoil systems are not new... it is like adding a gearbox to a rifle design... will need extra care and maintainence but will improve performance.

    The problem is that the main area of performance improvement is in auto fire... which uses up ammo fast and generally used for suppression only rather than actually engaging targets with any precision.

    But people who tested AK-107 said it's rugged and reliable design.
    http://glockmeister.livejournal.com/64336.html

    The same person shot AEK-971 and mentioned it broke down.


    I personally think than civilian AN-94 and AEK-971 and 973 are exotic weapons. The new AEK looks like would interest not only Soviet weapon fans. Still civilian version would only differ from regular AK just by looks as it won't have balanced automatics or two-shot capability.
    My understanding is that the AEK-971 and AK-107 have similar mechanics. One example of a rifle breaking down doesn't mean they are all bad. My understanding is the original AL-7 rifle that was tested in the 1970's (basically the AK-107) passed all the factory tests required and the only reason why they didn't adopt was because it was too much money to change tooling to adopt a new design. The Russians have always had a very difficult time marketing their arms to western markets. I don't think it's due to techological inferority of soviet and Russian designs, but politics probably play a big part. My Russian isn't very good but it seems like he's implying in that link that perhaps newer assault rifles like the FN SCAR and G36 have the same shot dispersion in fully automatic as the AK-107, which makes the complexity of the AK-107 not needed.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:13 am

    Keep in mind that making ammo for a bullet hose is cheaper than trying to make consistent ammo... in the 1970s training a large conscript army to shoot accurately over excessive ranges was seen as a waste of resources. There were SVDs and LMG and PKMs to do the long range killing. At medium and short ranges who needs a sniper rifle?

    At long ranges the average soldier will not likely see their target let alone be able to identify them or engage them effectively.

    It would be very nice if every soldier could kill to a radius of 1km but without extensive training, new equipment including new optics and of course new ammo, and indeed better C4IR so you can identify the enemy correctly at such ranges it simply is not going to happen in the real world.

    As shown in Afghanistan the much vaunted western forces of US and UK troops were getting outgunned by an enemy firing from 500-900m with PKMS and SVDs... knowing Afghans as I do they would have likely fired a burst from such distances in an attempt to cause casualties without endangering themselves too much... which is of course perfectly normal... hurt the enemy where you can with as little risk to yourself as possible.

    Back onto this topic however... as I posted on another thread about Ratnik the Russian Army has fully tested the system and it is about to enter production and service. They are still to choose a new firearm family... which I suspect means they are waiting to see what the modular AK12SN system is like before they decide... if it was up to me I would go for the AK12SN for 5.45mm and 9 x 39mm weapons and also an AK12SN model of the Vityaz-SN 9mm SMG, and of course the 12 gauge model, though I would like the heavy model in 6 x 49mm as a DMR plus a version of the VS-121 with a 20 round mag as the standard sniper rifle, plus the SV-98 as the medium range sniper rifle and the SV-338 as the long range sniper rifle.

    In terms of pistols... I would allow a selection including Gyurza, GSh-18, Pya, and that new pistol.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:44 pm

    My MP-654K pistol has arrived and it is very much like a PMM.

    (Pistol Makarov Modernised)

    It looks like the real thing... even strips the same... and most importantly is made of the same materials and therefore has the same weight and feel of the real thing.

    I am very happy with it. Smile
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:27 pm

    GarryB wrote:My MP-654K pistol has arrived and it is very much like a PMM.

    (Pistol Makarov Modernised)

    It looks like the real thing... even strips the same... and most importantly is made of the same materials and therefore has the same weight and feel of the real thing.

    I am very happy with it. Smile
    I've have 1 East German Makarov and 1 commercial baikal Makarov in 9x18, they are good pistols. Blowback has a kind of a weird recoil impulse, but managable though.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:14 am

    I am actually considering expanding my collection now... Embarassed

    The MP-655K is P-466 Viking, which is the sporting name for the PYa Yargin Pistol. According to the Izhmash website the MP-655K can fire BBs and pellets which is an improvement, but having a pistol the weight, size and feel of the real thing is what I am after.

    They also list replicas called MMGs, so I would be interested in the MMG P-PSM. It is a shame they don't have a Stechkin MMG or even a suppressed Makarov MMG... I might suggest it to them clown
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:15 pm

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 22 Sr_3m_vikhr_compact_3_by_garr1971-d37lkfr

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:51 am

    Very nice... is that a 30 round magazine in 9 x 39mm cal?

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 22 Tsniit10

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 22 Tvm20110

    Russian Assault Rifles & Machine Guns Thread: #1 - Page 22 Tvm20111

    3,2,1...
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:22 am

    I believe so Garry, I am very poor with small arms though.

    EDIT: Mag from Vihr, according to the post where I snabbed the pic.

    Second EDIT: Wait, that is Vihr isn't it? Thought it was Val for a second, bah.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:05 am

    SR-3 is Vikhr in 9 x 39mm, SR-2 is 9 x 21mm SMG, SR-1 is 9 x 21mm pistol better known as Gyurza or Viper.

    But don't be embarrassed as even I would have trouble telling an AS from SR-3...
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:19 pm

    ADS Details and photos:

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/37199/
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:07 pm

    Nice.

    Still no word about anyone adopting it even though it was tested some time ago by both the Russian Marines and the VDV and seemed to have been positively received.

    Will be interesting to see if it is competing with the modular AK12SN family of weapons... or indeed if the AK12SN can fire the new underwater ammo developed for the ADS... which would give it an all new capability.
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    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:03 pm

    If the ADS is capable of doing all that, while being maintenance easy, then I do not see why they would not purchase it over the AK12SN, other than to help the frail Kalashnikov facility.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:54 am

    There is nothing frail about Kalashnikov.

    Imagine a company that is able to produce tens of thousands of weapons per year... you have to carefully manage things to keep a good balance of costs and profits.

    Very simply think of it in terms of a church... you maintain capacity and resources during the year to meet the day to day needs, but you know that at certain times like Easter and Christmas that you need extra resources and space.

    Having good management means you are prepared for day to day and increased and also decreased demand.

    They have not always had good management.

    The ADS is a single calibre rifle that will be very useful and compact and ideal for paratroopers and naval personel.

    The AK12SN on the other hand will be a family of weapons in several calibre options for military use and even more for civilian use, that has been designed with Russian military professionals in mind.

    They picked the AK-74 to bits and identified all its problems... real and imagined and have taken genuine steps to address those issues and on the face of it in my opinion they have dealt with them all and even some issues that weren't issues... like the added capacity to fire rifle grenades from the muzzle.
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    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:19 pm

    GarryB, did I ever tell you I love you?

    On a more serious note though, when I said frail, I meant the economic standings of Kalashnikov indusry as a whole, since they had to merge Ishmash and Ishmezsh(SP?) and do another managers hiring/firing.

    Well, I look forward to whatever comes out!
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:43 pm

    Merging several very capable arms factories is a good way of greatly increasing their strength and potential.

    With WTO entry it should be a lot simpler and cheaper to export Russian weapons now and lets face it they will likely have some very nice new products to sell including multicalibre modular designs.

    Now that they are looking at long range accuracy I think their exports of bolt action and long range rifles will also find a niche market in the west.

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