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    Project 971: Akula class

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:55 am

    And nor would they release such information.

    The most important information you can have is what information the enemy has about you.

    The Military doesn't spend money for fun.

    A good example is tank gun ammo. There is no prize for having the most powerful tank ammo. Developing ammo and deploying it costs money so your ammo is generally designed to penetrate your primary enemies tank frontal armour from 2,000m most of the time.
    The job of the people building your tank is to make sure that your tanks frontal armour will stop the enemies best tank round and most of his missiles within reason.

    The US will not bother to develop armour for the Abrams that will stop the 317kg shaped charge warhead of the Kh-29 family of medium missiles because no level of mobile armour will help... these missiles are designed to undermine the concrete foundations of bridges and other heavy structures so no level of tank armour will be good enough.

    The point is that if the US had never learned about the performance of several ERAs the Soviets and Russians have developed they would not have developed the higher penetration rounds that they have because there would have been no requirement.

    Equally the Russians, if they had money during the 1990s would have already had longer rod penetrators in service as they were needed. They have developed a larger calibre gun to allow for future armour protection increases in western tanks but have decided there is room for further growth with 125mm rounds that will make it effective for the foreseeable future.

    Improving ammo is not cheap... it is actually quite expensive and includes production of enough rounds to get it into service in significant numbers to make the cost worth it, but it is still cheaper than introducing a new calibre.

    A new larger calibre would make guided rounds and HEAT rounds more effective.

    In other words what I am saying if the Russians can detect and track new US subs it is not in their interests for the US to know that because it might be some trick they are using that could easily be defeated.

    I remember one time reading about a western force that transmitted IFF signals to enemy aircraft back when IFF systems were new. They could use the IFF responses to detect the aircraft type and location without using radar. IFF systems got more sophisticated and only started responding to specific signals... but you see what I mean about sneaky tricks?
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    Mindstorm


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    Post  Mindstorm Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:59 am


    Interesting news , Any idea how did they manage to then know after a month of being undetected that she was there for weeks undetected.

    In the same way similar events happened in the last 40 years obviously also at inverted sides :

    - A first brief contact ,usually at very high depth for Russian attack submarines, (not useful at prevent that submarine from sliping outside the surveying rings that are promptly put around the contact point to track it) providing a general vector of the enemy submarine unity.

    - Few even more brief, not "profitable" contacts (usually resonant, near isotropic ones, in close littoral areas) long the entire period of stationing of the intruding submarine in its area of operation.

    - A stable contact ,usually with the enemy submarine intentionally surfacing for few minutes , when this unity leave its area of operation.


    Therefore is important to point out that when a NATO or Russian Navy official say that an enemy submarine has operated ,in a specific area of theirs competence, for a certain time window and undetected it refer to situations where the few data coming from theirs sensors echelons, in that time frame ,turned out as absolutely insufficient to provide a positional coordinate useful at execute an eventual engagement of the enemy submarine.


    Intentionally lying for any reason to the Central Command on a similar strategically critical and complex detection process of enemy boomers and attack submarines is not only a very serious purpose but also an incredibly difficult one because it would require to erase and/or warp data coming from an incredibly high number of different assets Sea, Undersea, Air and Space-based pertaining to different Armed Forces branch and thousands of operatives.


    Naturally all of that (in particular from Russian POV) remain true only within a strictly conventional conflict scenario..... Wink

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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:30 pm

    Interesting that is also possible Mindstorm.

    If Akula-2 can evade USN modern submarine of 4th Gen and can operate for weeks in US backyard then it is really a good compliment for the skills of crew and submarine.

    I am sure USN submarine might be operating in Russian backyard , do Russian Navy has any time went public with such data ?

    The Akula class will be undergoing modernisation soon it is reffered to as 971M class ( the M perhaps stands for modernised ) though details are not known but what is certain is they will acquire Kalbir and new class of torpedoes and Perhaps better sensors and quitening.

    Can you tell us if this article in Russian has any interesting details on Yasen class ? Thanks

    Pr 885 Yasen

    Yasen-1
    Yasen-2
    Yasen-3


    Not sure what it says but looks interesting
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:06 pm

    Would be nice to get a head count of all Bars boats in service, and check if any were actually deployed during the time.
    Easy way to see if this is indeed internal consumption.

    EDIT: Austin, will xlate anything interesting later today, busy @ the moment.
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    Post  Austin Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:07 am

    This site says
    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-273.html

    The Nerpa is an Improved Akula 971U and not an Akula-2

    So what the IN has is an improved Akula and not an Akula-2 as indian media puts it ?
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:22 am

    Given its date of completion I would not doubt it is at least as modern as Akula-2, save export regulated stuff.
    From what I have read even classifying the class into Akula 1 and 2 is inaccurate, since the Bars received updates with almost every new boat.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 17, 2012 12:22 pm

    From what I have read even classifying the class into Akula 1 and 2 is inaccurate, since the Bars received updates with almost every new boat.

    Like the joke about the Tu-160... they were built during a period of improvement so each aircraft got something that was better than the previous aircraft had... they said no two aircraft were the same.

    Part of the Tu-160M upgrade they are going to receive it to make them all the same and upgrade them all to a new level.

    Hopefully they will develop a midlife upgrade for the Akulas based on the Yasen Ms stuff hopefully, as that will mean more commonality of weapons and sensors.

    Obviously the Yasen M has its torpedo tubes moved to amidships so the large frontal array sonar will be too big to retro fit into older SSNs, but a scaled down slightly cheaper model might be useful.
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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Fri Aug 17, 2012 7:29 pm

    Well there are two critical things that Indian Akula lack.

    One is the non-acoustic sensors SOKS
    Another is the tube above torpedo tube for decoys.
    They dont have 650 mm TT but only 8 533 mm tubes.

    All in All there are differences , I am not sure if there are actually Akula-2 class.
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    Post  Austin Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:18 am

    The first Akula to undergo modernisation to 971M standard is the Leopard

    http://www.vdvsn.ru/novosti/korabelnaya_storona/pervym_prishel_leopard/

    In short, the modernization will be a major - a new project to 971M. In carrying out these works will be used to achieve the latest academic and applied science, including overseas. Complex systems of communication, navigation, speakers and other modern means of communication, set on a ship, a number of parameters exceed even those that are installed on the fourth-generation nuclear submarines.
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    Post  coolieno99 Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:54 am

    Despite its large size, the Akula-class sub is very stealthy.

    Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say

    BY: Bill Gertz
    August 14, 2012 5:00 am

    A Russian nuclear-powered attack submarine armed with long-range cruise missiles operated undetected in the Gulf of Mexico for several weeks and its travel in strategic U.S. waters was only confirmed after it left the region, the Washington Free Beacon has learned.

    It is only the second time since 2009 that a Russian attack submarine has patrolled so close to U.S. shores.

    The stealth underwater incursion in the Gulf took place at the same time Russian strategic bombers made incursions into restricted U.S. airspace near Alaska and California in June and July, and highlights a growing military assertiveness by Moscow.

    The submarine patrol also exposed what U.S. officials said were deficiencies in U.S. anti-submarine warfare capabilities—forces that are facing cuts under the Obama administration’s plan to reduce defense spending by $487 billion over the next 10 years.

    The Navy is in charge of detecting submarines, especially those that sail near U.S. nuclear missile submarines, and uses undersea sensors and satellites to locate and track them.

    The fact that the Akula was not detected in the Gulf is cause for concern, U.S. officials said.

    The officials who are familiar with reports of the submarine patrol in the Gulf of Mexico said the vessel was a nuclear-powered Akula-class attack submarine, one of Russia’s quietest submarines.

    A Navy spokeswoman declined to comment.

    One official said the Akula operated without being detected for a month.

    “The Akula was built for one reason and one reason only: To kill U.S. Navy ballistic missile submarines and their crews,” said a second U.S. official.

    “It’s a very stealthy boat so it can sneak around and avoid detection and hope to get past any protective screen a boomer might have in place,” the official said, referring to the Navy nickname for strategic missile submarines. .....

    http://freebeacon.com/silent-running/
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:36 am

    They have recently made statements to the effect that this story is not true.

    It was probably Republican propaganda to try to yet again discredit Obama... it happened on his watch, and the US is looking at budget cutting and ASW stuff is the most expensive stuff in warfare.

    Also note that this is a western source so they are not actually talking about the Akula class, which is actually called Typhoon SSBN by NATO. They are talking about either the Shuka class or the Bars class SSN which is called Akula or Shark by NATO.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:51 pm

    Excellent. This will alleviate pressure to get 885 numbers up.
    TR1
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    Post  TR1 Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:53 pm

    It's called Bars dammit!


    Very Happy
    Garry prempted me.
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    Austin


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    Post  Austin Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:35 am

    Nerpa/INS Chakra

    Note the 8x533 TT and the Close up of Screws

    Chakra 8x533 mm Torpedo Tubes
    Screws/Props
    TAS POD
    Chakra Silhouette
    Floating Dock
    Sail Close Up
    Chakra Sail/Bow
    TAS Pod Closeup
    INS Chakra

    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:13 pm

    Thanks for lots of valuable imagery up there Austin. Very Happy

    oh BTW did this Nerpa is capable of launching KLUB missiles ?
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    Post  Austin Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:20 pm

    Dont know for sure but I suspect yes it can fire Klub as Indian Kilos do.
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    Post  TR1 Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:41 pm

    http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=296130&download=2

    Photo of Nerpa interior during fitting out.
    George1
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    Post  George1 Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:48 am

    Caliber Cruise Missiles to Set in Russian Subs since 2013

    In 2013, Russian defense ministry will start equipping of Project 971 Schuka-B and Project 877 Varshavyanka submarines with Caliber cruise missiles capable to hit land-based targets at the range of 300-2,500 km, reports Izvestiya.

    According to the newspaper, "Russian Navy will thereby obtain a capability to attack land targets. By the way, the missiles are launched by common 533-mm torpedo tubes".

    "It is practically impossible to intercept Caliber missile even by the most advanced air defense systems, including Russian S-300 and S-400. Salvo launch made by a suddenly surfaced submarine may destroy several key assets at once. This capability makes the subs earlier used only for naval engagement a versatile weapon", a source in Russian Navy Main HQ told Izvestiya.

    At present, Russian Navy operates over 20 submarines of Schuka-B and Varshavyanka classes, reports the newspaper.

    A high-ranking staff officer told Izvestiya that integration of Caliber missile into Project 971 nuclear submarine K-328 Leopard had been already started. The sub is under repairs at Sevmash shipyard since June 2011. Early in Nov, Caliber missile was successfully tested by its standard carrier, newest Russian Yasen-class submarine Severodvinsk.

    According to Izvestiya, at first, the Caliber missiles will be planted in Project 971 submarines stationed at Northern Fleet. Then, analogous work will be done on Pacific Fleet' Schukas.

    An informed representative of defense industry told Izvestiya that the first Caliber-equipped diesel-electric submarine would be B-261 Novorossiysk (Project 636.3) being currently built at Admiralteyskie Verfi shipyard in St. Petersburg. She will be followed by diesel subs Rostov-na-Donu and Stary Oskol in 2014-2015. After that, it is planned to plant Caliber missiles on Project 877 Varshavyanka submarines in service at Northern Fleet's 165-th brigade.

    "It is also discussed to plant the new missiles on Lada-class submarines, in particular, on the lead sub St. Petersburg which is already built", writes Izvestiya.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16468
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    Post  stud-one Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:27 am

    Can anyone give me an accurate list of how many akulas are actually in servine with the russian navy? Jane's says there are 10. I tend to distrust.western analysts based on the bias I see in them. So if anyone can give me an accurate number that would be great.. thanks
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    Post  TR1 Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:40 am

    stud-one wrote:Can anyone give me an accurate list of how many akulas are actually in servine with the russian navy? Jane's says there are 10. I tend to distrust.western analysts based on the bias I see in them. So if anyone can give me an accurate number that would be great.. thanks

    Number is around 12 max @ best, so by Jane's standards they are not too far off.

    I presume you mean project 971, not the real Akula (941).

    I had a headcount of all the big nuclear boats and their status @ the time I made the list, gotta dig it up.
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    Post  stud-one Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:22 am

    Cool TR1 thanks for the info. Yes i meant project 971 Bars. If you can find that list that would be awesome to see. Cheers
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    Post  TR1 Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:37 am

    Gepard in dry dock-photos taken just recently!

    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=316527&download=2
    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=316528&download=2
    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=316529&download=2

    Talk about a big drydock...
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    Post  Austin Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:16 pm

    WoW Snow and Snow !

    Wasnt Gepard labelled as the last Akula built by Russians which was considered very close in characteristic to 4th Gen Submarine and was fully or partially digital sub ? I remember Putin was there commisioning the Gepard.

    I wonder how she performed in the almost 10 years she was operational ?
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    Post  TR1 Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:42 am

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 3 88526_900

    Leopard at Zvezdochka, 2012.
    Viktor
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    Post  Viktor Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:55 am

    Project 971: Akula class - Page 3 IzvNPC2

    Bratsk Akula class

    LINK

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