Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

It looks like the mighty world-spanning Royal Navy has dispatched one of its famous & greatly-feared... err...  car ferries...  to intercept the Evil Russian.

Probably cuz the rest of their puny navy has been sent to Asia in a vain attempt to scare the Evil Chinaman....  

It is the newest transforming thermonuclear-powered submersible carrier of Her Royal Highness Navy, you silly.
Just pretending to be a ferry to fool the Russkies.

Big_Gazza wrote:
It looks like the mighty world-spanning Royal Navy has dispatched one of its famous & greatly-feared... err...  car ferries...  to intercept the Evil Russian.

Probably cuz the rest of their puny navy has been sent to Asia in a vain attempt to scare the Evil Chinaman....  

Just like when the Iranian Navy passed Dover, nothing in our press. No ship available for escort duty. But more important no Royal Navy ship wants to be seen in the Channel as they might have to pick up some of the many hundreds of immigrants making the trip across the Channel.

Only half of those ferries are ours P&O the rest are Danish DFDS.

HMS QE turned tail and headed for the Philippines at the start of the week by the most direct route after the Chines had words. Then the US Sec Def basically said that it should do its work in traditional NATO areas, not the Pacific as it would just get in the way. Since half its F-35 aircraft are US Marines and its main AD is the USS Sullivans it had to obey like the good little vassal it is.

Isos wrote:They are creating a new naval helicopter. They certainly won't use old ones for ever.

And they also now have the naval ka-52.

Both play different roles.
Ka-29 is a troop carrier with some extra assault/support possibilities.

AMCXXL wrote:I wonder where they plan to get Ka-29 helicopters for all these ships.
The Soviet Navy only received 46 Ka-29s...

Necessity is the mother of invention

There definitely aren't enough K-29s but there can be plenty of these and while it may not be ideal they can move troops around while Ka-52s do the shooting:



List of upgrades and other details:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t8575p25-maks-2021-air-show-photos-and-news#332680

The so-called Minoga helicopter from Kamov should be the chosen one. Should be ready quite soon I hope.

The two new helicopter carriers are not going to be in the water till 2028 at the very earliest, so they probably have time to make some decisions as they are planning a new replacement helicopter called the Minoga to replace the Ka-27 family and it is supposed to include a pusher propeller for higher flight speeds.

A rear ramp door would also be useful to add exits and entry points which is always good for troop helicopters, but also to allow light vehicles to be carried too.

From what I can tell the new 40K ton carriers can carry 25 helicopters plus drones, but that would include a mix of attack/recon helicopters (Ka-52s) and troop transport helicopters (Ka-29 types) but presumably also a couple of AEW Ka-31 to watch for air and ground targets to support the landing operations (note the Russian Army bought Ka-31s for battlefield management for ground operations so it works over land too).

I would also think they will have smaller aircraft like Ka-26 and other types as well would be useful including search and rescue and also anti sub.

They are going to need Ka-29 types for the Kuznetsov and the two new 40K ton ships, but also half a dozen for each Ivan Gren ships too.

Such troop transport helicopters would also be valuable on corvettes and frigates tasked with anti piracy missions to board ships on the open sea... so having quite a few of them is going to be rather important.

Was hoping they would mention something about their new high speed helicopters at MAKS but have not seen anything yet.

Minoga will not have a pusher propeller, it's a conventional helicopter (same layout as Ka-226 only enlarged)

New high speed helicopter is a different project for VKS/VDV and it will have intermeshing rotors and pusher propeller

AMCXXL wrote:

to put Ka-31 on any ship they will have to buy more, the only two there are will surely go to the Kuznestov again when he rejoins the navy
the Russian Army ??, the only sales of Ka-31 helicopters were; India bought 14, nine received in 2001-2004 and the rest in 2012. Russia bought two a little after India and before China, which received 9 between 2010-2011

There are at least two prototypes for the Russian Army (ka-31SV) - not sure if they adopted it, but the Army did test them extensively?

AMCXXL wrote:

The prototypes are used by the manufacturing company during the research and development period of the project.
It does not even sound like a copy will be delivered for state tests. Aircraft with three digits are prototypes
The Ka-31 was abandoned during the collapse of Russia in the 90s and only resurfaced after the Indian contract (would it be easy to assume that probably with the benefits the Ministry of Defense bought the only two copies for the Navy ??)
The Ministry of Defense only buys and operates finished series products.

In Soviet times two prototypes 021 and 032 were built. After serving the order to India, two more prototypes were made, the 231 and the 232, I believe that somewhere they were called Ka-35, but all this is conjecture.
This type of helicopter from time to time is brought out to air shows or used to test some type of equipment, but beyond that, the Ministry of Defense does not have any plans on this, at least as far as it is known and I doubt a lot. to continue around here, Shoigu has already said that you have to focus on new projects.

That goes WITHOUT saying that Kamov developed the prototypes - for the MOD. I didn't think I would have had to explain that bit!
I also mentioned that the 2 prototypes were extensively tested by the MOD - AND that I am not sure if it was adopted
Here is a picture of the helicopter undergoing state trails.

AMCXXL wrote:

The helicopter was operated by Kamov, it never entered the air force as no prototype ever does.

Now can you please show me were and when did I ever say this helicopter entered service with the Army let alone any of the prototypes?

This is what a MOD spokesperson had to say about the Ka-31SV >> the one spotted in Syria

https://svpressa.ru/war21/article/159529/

The Ka-31SV radar reconnaissance helicopter, created in the Kamov Design Bureau for the Aerospace Forces and the Ground Forces.

In 2004, the first prototype appeared with the tail number "231 blue". It was built due to the conversion of the prototype Ka-31 helicopter for new radar equipment. 2 years later, a second prototype appeared with the tail number "232 blue". This time the car was completely built "from scratch".

The factory tests were successfully completed. Then-the state ones. Moreover, even before their completion, the Ministry of Defense in 2008 signed a contract for the construction of the first batch of two rotorcraft scouts. In August 2015, the Ka-31SV was put into service as an integral part of the 1K130 Ground-based Radar Reconnaissance Helicopter Complex.

Despite the adoption of the helicopter into service, there are still some questions about its effectiveness, reliability and some other properties that are extremely important for the military. Therefore, we decided to slow down serial production and test the car not at the test site, but in real combat conditions.

After the helicopter was put into service, one of the systems was replaced with a more advanced one, which allows to increase the efficiency of the machine. And now we decided to test the updated prototype in practice.

Minoga will not have a pusher propeller, it's a conventional helicopter (same layout as Ka-226 only enlarged)

New high speed helicopter is a different project for VKS/VDV and it will have intermeshing rotors and pusher propeller

You seem very sure of that... Why would the navy not want a high speed helicopter?

I presume both Kamov and Mil are working on high speed helicopters, I would think a lot of features like improved engines and improved blade aerodynamics would also be incorporated into existing designs too.

I do not know who spoke of 40,000 tons as an American LHD, the project presented to Putin in Crimea was a little larger than the Mistral of about 25-27 thousand tons with six points for helicopters and 20 aircraft maximum (typically 8 ka-52, 8 Ka-29 and maybe 4 UAVs)

It was Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko...

MOSCOW, December 30 - RIA Novosti. The displacement of the universal amphibious assault ships - helicopter carriers, being built in Kerch , will amount to 40 thousand tons, twice as much as previously reported, said Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko .

"Under the leadership of the President of the Russian Federation, two universal amphibious assault ships of a new project with a displacement of 40 thousand tons each were laid down," he said in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper.

Source:  https://ria.ru/20201230/vertoletonostsy-1591490559.html

But that doesn't change the helicopter issue.
The Ka-29s were purchased to serve on the 3 Ivan Rogov class ships and the 4 Kiev, therefore 46 were more than enough.
Now dozens of ships have hangars for helicopters (planned 30 or more 22380/22385 20-24 pr. 22350, 10-12 Lider, and an undetermined number of 11711 / 1711M in addition to the LHDs), and there will only be a maximum: 50 Ka -27M, 30 Ka-27PS and 40 Ka-29 for all.

A problem whose obvious solution would either be a replacement helicopter type, or putting older helicopters back into production.

They were talking about putting the Mi-14 back into production... I would personally prefer they did to the Mi-38 to create the Mi-14 what they did to the Mi-8.

I do not see a new helicopter operating before the beginning of the 2030s, in the plan until 2028 it is not defined anything except to start development in any time in this decade, so the process may not end before the mid of 2030´s.

So the solution could be putting Ka-27s back into production and making some more.

To be clear of course they have recently upgraded some Ka-27s to Ka-27M standard AFAIK, and another interesting point was that HATO didn't notice the Ka-27 had entered production and service for quite some time... assuming it was a just a variant of the old Ka-25.

The difference could be improved rotor blades and engines and a remodelled airframe... it does not need a radical redesign, though as I have mentioned a rear ramp door would be useful for a troop and general transport type... and there is no tail rotor to get in the way anyway.

to put Ka-31 on any ship they will have to buy more, the only two there are will surely go to the Kuznestov again when he rejoins the navy
the Russian Army ??, the only sales of Ka-31 helicopters were; India bought 14, nine received in 2001-2004 and the rest in 2012. Russia bought two a little after India and before China, which received 9 between 2010-2011

I remember reading an article that said the Army tested them for battlefield surveillance and they passed the tests and were going to be adopted...

In a landing type situation a flying radar carrying aircraft with 360 degrees low altitude view is critical... look at experience in the Falklands where Argentine aircraft took advantage of the radar shadow of the islands to come in low over the islands and attack British ships in harbours with dumb bomb attacks...

Obviously modern landing ships are expected to operate much further from shore with high speed landing boats, but still it is important to be aware of their local airspace.

This type of helicopter from time to time is brought out to air shows or used to test some type of equipment, but beyond that, the Ministry of Defense does not have any plans on this, at least as far as it is known and I doubt a lot. to continue around here, Shoigu has already said that you have to focus on new projects.

You do, but you don't walk around stark naked until they are ready... you upgrade and use older stuff till the new stuff is ready to replace it...

After the helicopter was put into service, one of the systems was replaced with a more advanced one, which allows to increase the efficiency of the machine. And now we decided to test the updated prototype in practice.

Which sounds like they are doing that... testing it in Syria and upgrading it to make it useful before putting the final working system into production.

My understanding was that the Ka-31 was part of the air component of the Kuznetsov to provide AEW support for the carrier... not a true AWACS platform, but much better than nothing.

Regarding the Minoga...

Reports from 2015 state that it would be ready in 10 years... meaning 2025-2026...

Talk of a prototype being ready in 2020 is interesting too from Sputnik news.

In 2018 they said this:

Boginsky did say that some findings made during the high-speed helicopter research programs are being applied to new designs for the military. “The company decided in 2015 to halt the work on the commercial helicopter because our studies indicated the price of speed was going to be too expensive for commercial operators,” he said.

So high speed helicopters are not good in terms of commercial use, so they halted work on a commercial version of a high speed helicopter for commercial use... which suggests the Minoga will be a high speed helicopter design...

The information about the Minoga is very confused and conflicting as shown by the thread I got most of this information from...

https://www.russiadefence.net/t5337p50-promising-naval-helicopter-minoga-lamprey

Personally the most positive article from that thread is one I posted:

GarryB wrote:If we look at an actual news article regarding the new design:

MOSCOW, July 3. /TASS/. The Russian Helicopters holding has completed a detail design of the advanced ship-based helicopter for the Russian Navy, codenamed ‘Minoga,’ CEO Andrey Boginsky has told TASS.

"Our job has been accepted," he said. "Together with the Defense Ministry, we now continue drafting a statement of work for the next stage, for the stage of experimental design."

In May 2018, Boginsky said that the detail design of the project was scheduled for completion in the first quarter of 2019.

As was reported earlier, work has been launched to develop a fast-speed helicopter for the Industry and Trade Ministry and the Defense Ministry of Russia. Then-Commander-in-Chief of Russia’s Aerospace Force Viktor Bondarev noted at the time that the helicopter was being developed for the Russian Defense Ministry, would enter its serial production from 2022 and would be able to develop a speed of up to 500 km/h.

The Russian Navy is to receive several modifications of the prospective seaborne Minoga helicopter, including airborne assault one, a defense industry source told TASS on the sidelines of the Army-2016 defense forum.

The chief designer of the Kamov design bureau (part of the Russian Helicopters), Sergei Mikheyev, earlier told TASS that an unmanned version of the rotorcraft may be created if necessary.

So they want a 500km/h helicopter that includes replacing naval helos like the Ka-29, so new rotors and a pusher system and a more aerodynamic design, in serial production by 2022 is a bit short notice to expect brand new engines other than the new models for the land based helos (Mi-28NM)...

source: https://tass.com/defense/1066825

I suspect Rodion_Romanovic is right and that the current Helix helicopters will get upgrades and continue to be used while new helicopters are phased in to service.

In fact the Army might be waiting for these new gen helicopters to enter production before they order their new Ka-35s rather than buy a helicopter that is no longer in production.

Even more importantly the gearbox for a Kamov Helix type Coaxial helicopter is enormously expensive and complex so maybe they are waiting for electric powered designs to come ready... the gearbox/transmission for the 10-12 ton Kamovs is something like 3 to 5 tons in weight I remember reading somewhere, so that would have an enormous effect on overall weight and performance if they could replace it with electric motors for each main rotor with no need for any gearbox or transmission.... in fact it would be transformational...

But the Ka-27 and Ka-29 and Ka-31 are all still very capable helicopters...

AMCXXL wrote:I wonder where they plan to get Ka-29 helicopters for all these ships.
The Soviet Navy only received 46 Ka-29s...

Hold on a second, Russia is selling Ka-32 all over the place so they are still in production

https://www.russiadefence.net/t8535-russian-civil-helicopters-news#335510

Russian_Patriot_ wrote:Serbia intends to buy two Ka-32 helicopters from Russia to fight fires....

There should be more than enough large Kamovs for everything including Navy

@GarryB

Industry people were arguing that there were tail blades besides the Minoga prototype that was shown some time ago. So this high speed design does not seem to be just wishful thinking... and the rest of the evidence you provide point in the same direction

As mentioned in the article, the high speed helicopter designs are not cost effective so they must really burn fuel to get that extra speed.

That alone means it wont have commercial implications except in extreme cases where the extra cost is worth it, so there is no reason to release information about these new programmes because for a while they will likely be military only projects.

If they can get it moving at 500km/h then I rather think having a smaller capacity wont be much of a problem... it could use its speed to get to the target area and then revert to normal propulsion to loiter and then speed back to be replaced... ie using its speed for transit rather than operational use.