Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Thread:

Pakistan began producing components of the UAV "Falco"
26.08.2009 comments:

MOSCOW, August 25. (ARMS-TASS). Company "Pakistan aeronotikal Complex (PAC) today announced the beginning of production in the country components of the UAV" Falco "the Italian company SELEX Galileo, which had been ordered by the Pakistani Air Force, reported Jane's Defense Weekly.

The project is to reduce the volume of imports of components from Italy, as well as the development of production and development of advanced unmanned systems by enterprises of the national defense industry.

As stated at the opening ceremony of the project director of DAS Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan, the use of UAVs "Falco" dramatically expand the country's air force.

According to available information, currently Pakistan Air Force signed a contract to supply five sets of UAV "Falco". Each includes four unmanned vehicles, ground control station, ground data processing device, a set of spare parts, support equipment.

"Falco" used in two basic modes. The first provides for surveillance of the strategically important areas and convoy escorts. In the second mode, the UAV is used to identify groups of militants and the transfer of their location via a ground station command to ensure the defeat of Air Force strike aircraft and helicopters. When approaching drone aircraft climbs at high altitude and loitering until the attack. The apparatus is then reduced again to assess the degree of destruction.

UAVs "Falco" in the standard version is equipped with an autonomous navigation system and is able to conduct surveillance and intelligence gathering, transferring the received data in real time to a ground command center, located at a distance of 200 km, with the help of noise-stable communication system.

According to western experts, the next step in enhancing the combat capability of the Air Force will purchase shock unmanned vehicles to support combat operations, or jointly developed with SELEX Galileo armed version of the "Falco".

Pakistan has already directed the administration's request for the supply shock unmanned vehicles. The Pakistani leadership for a long time convincing command of the U.S. Armed Forces to cease the use of a drone attack to destroy targets on Pakistani territory in the border regions of Afghanistan, often because of the errors of U.S. operators are killed by shelling civilians. Get your own weapons systems would ease the tension and improve the fight against militants.

The beginning of the project "Falco" precedes planned for the end of the year rollout of the first collected in Pakistan JF-17 fighter aircraft, jointly developed by the PAC and the Chinese aircraft group "Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group." Air Force plans to acquire at least 250 aircraft JF-17, which will form the basis of the park fighter aircraft of the country.


Права на данный материал принадлежат АРМС-ТАСС

Pakistani air force plane crashes during training, one dead

RIA Novosti

12/09/200911:46

MOSCOW, September 12 (RIA Novosti) - A pilot was killed when a Pakistani air force plane crashed during a training flight on Saturday, national media said.

The accident happened in east Pakistan, not far from the city of near Gujranwala.

The pilot survived the initial crash, but died later of his injuries in hospital.

Reports say a technical problem with the Mashak training plane was behind the accident. There were no reports of injuries or damage on the ground.

Pakistan has seen a number of accidents recently involving military aircraft. On August 5, a military helicopter crashed in the northwest of the country, killing 26.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/pakistan/2009/pakistan-090912-rianovosti01.htm

PAF Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C Roll-out Ceremony Held in China

NOVEMBER 13, 2010 - According to Pakistan Television (PTV) news report, roll-out ceremony of first Shaanxi ZDK-03 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft designed specifically for Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was held in Hanzhong, Shaanxi, China today (November 13). The ceremony was attended by PAF Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman and other high ranking officers of PAF.

PAF has plans to induct a total of four Shaanxi ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft in its inventory.

PAF ZDK-03




A total of 4 AWACS has been received

Our pilots conclusion ( no offence to anyone)

Nothing like overwhelmed..
They like the bird though.. big, powerful.. can carry lots of stuff..found the radar and hud symbology crude compared to the F-16.
but find it lacking maneuverability in the transonic region.. where PAF pilots like to fight..
cant seem to get a hold of the graph that outlines the Su-27's performance vs the viper..
(not the one from lock on).. but its out there..
The Su outperforms the F-16 in the low speed instantaneous and sustained.. with the graph equalling out at the high transonic.. and the F-16 edging out in the supersonic(getting better with altitude).
However..
The PAf pilots flew the MK.. series.. without the canards.(which improve handling at high AoA).. and assist in the aforementioned ranges..
Still, it gets high praise for all that it carries.. and its power.. (although some of the hawk eyed folks claim they can see it in supposed BVR ranges as well...

What PAF pilots really pooh pooh is TVC.. which they consider obsolete in todays WVR combat of HOBS heaters.


and NO

What PAF pilots really pooh pooh is TVC.. which they consider obsolete in todays WVR combat of HOBS heaters.

Of course they pooh pooh it... because they haven't got it.

TVC has never been about dodging HOBS heaters.

During tests with German Mig-29s with R-73s the Migs beat every western aircraft because it got first launch which meant even if the F-16 got on their tail 62% of the time they didn't get one kill because the Mig had already fired a missile with a good chance of a kill.
Being able to turn your nose... which has your missiles and gun pointing that way too BTW at a target will greatly reduce the amount of energy loss for your missile on launch because it doesn't have to make a hard turn on launch and lose energy... it will get to and kill the enemy faster... which is crucial in dogfights.

TVC can also be used to optimise thrust angle while supercruising to reduce RCS and drag.

Would also point out that the Chinese S-30MKK aircraft are all Russian components, while the Su-30MKIs the Indians use have lots of Thales bits and are significantly more capable aircraft.

Note the Chinese aircraft had what the Russians were prepared to sell them... they are nothing like the Su-35S the Russians are preparing for themselves right now.

TVC can also be used to optimise thrust angle while supercruising to reduce RCS and drag.

more explanation here Garry,plz

@Garry
The JSF's HMS will allow a pilot to track a target in its blind zone.. i.e see underneath..or something at his 5 or 7 o clock..
and shoot.
The math that is being presented that the TVC will escape the "restrictions" to conventional HMS is absurd..
there is a difference in swinging the jets nose around to shoot.. and swinging the jet so that the target comes to your 3 or 9 o clock to shoot.

@Garry
The JSF's HMS will allow a pilot to track a target in its blind zone.. i.e see underneath..or something at his 5 or 7 o clock..
and shoot.
The math that is being presented that the TVC will escape the "restrictions" to conventional HMS is absurd..
there is a difference in swinging the jets nose around to shoot.. and
swinging the jet so that the target comes to your 3 or 9 o clock to
shoot.

Let me put it this way... the Russians know about hms... they had them in service in the early 1980s and have more experience with them than any other air force simply because they are in service with all their Su-27 and Mig-29 aircraft.

What I am talking about is missile energy. AAMs are not like those depicted in movies. Most short range AAMs have rocket motors that burn for 3-6 seconds at most and then the missile coasts to the target.
In other words it has 3-6 seconds to get to maximum speed and then to relies on momentum and low drag design to get to its target.
If the launch aircraft is up high in thin air and flying at high speed these factors can boost range, but if the target is closing or flying away also matter a lot as to the range you can shoot at an enemy plane and still expect to hit it.

Needless to say at low altitudes at low speeds the range of a missile is greatly reduced and if the missile has to pull a 180 degree turn off the rail to just get the enemy aircraft in view all of a sudden most of its energy is burned up in the turn and the acceleration from heading away from the target at whatever the F-35s speed was to heading backward at a useful speed.

Think of an Mig-29 and an F-35... if both fire missiles at the same time but the Mig is pointing its nose and weapons at the F-35 while the F-35 is flying away from the Mig-29 and its missile has to turn 180 degrees to get a lock which missile do you think will hit first?
If the Mig fires from 10km range his R-73 is well within lethal range of the target, but a 10km over the shoulder shot from an F-35 is at the edge of most WVR missiles flight range at low altitude.

If that F-35 had turned and fired directly at the Mig its missiles would have a shorter flight path to the target... but much more importantly it would not have been wasting energy pulling a hard 180 degree turn in the first few seconds of its flight when it should have been flying straight and level to accelerate to top speed for max range.

more explanation here Garry,plz

To explain best I think the best example is a jet boat. As you may or may not know the engine on a jet boat can change the angle of the water jet that propels the boat in the water. When the boat starts to move it is sitting low in the water and requires a lot of energy to move, but using the angle of the water jet that propels the boat you can help (along with the shape of the boat) to lift the boat out of the water to reduce drag and allow the boat to go much faster than it would for the same amount of power. With the boat up out of the water it is called planing, where the boat goes much faster but the angle of thrust from the water jet is crucial to maintain the boat on the plane.

With a jet aircraft the air is much thinner than water but in many ways air acts the same as water does.
In fact when you scale things down when you get to a small scale you can actually use water to simulate the effects in air, so a 1/35 scale car can be put in a water current with dyes to show how air will move over the external shell of a car accurately.
As jet aircraft change in speed sometimes the angle of thrust becomes less efficient but on most aircraft you can't change the angle of thrust so you set the angle at a pitch that the designers choose.

For instance very large aircraft like the B-52 spend most of their time at high subsonic cruise and the angle of their engines is optimised for that to minimise drag at high subsonic speed at high altitude.
This can sometimes cause problems for some aircraft at takeoff because the tail surface is not effective enough to actually get the aircraft nose up enough to take off so all sorts of things have been used like spring loaded nose gear that thrusts the nose up high enough to allow a takeoff.

With thrust vectoring however the flight control system can choose the angle of flight and it can choose it to reduce drag during supercruise, or it could be used to change the flight angle to reduce RCS from the front by changing the angle the nose points during cruising flight.

Thnx Garry for perfect elaboration...
However; it seems the whole argument revolves around one thing that who tracks & target the other plane with missile while directing its nose TOWARDS the enemy..isnt that what your point is??
So being LO F-35/22 the possible detection ranges would be 100-110 km in my humble opinion...so the Sukhois willnt be able to (unless an upgraded radar) fire extended range missile at their adversaries so indirectly the very long ranges of Russian AAMs (no offence) will hardly be of usage..right

Thnx Garry for perfect elaboration...
However; it seems the whole
argument revolves around one thing that who tracks & target the
other plane with missile while directing its nose TOWARDS the
enemy..isnt that what your point is??
So being LO F-35/22 the
possible detection ranges would be 100-110 km in my humble opinion...so
the Sukhois willnt be able to (unless an upgraded radar) fire extended
range missile at their adversaries so indirectly the very long ranges of
Russian AAMs (no offence) will hardly be of usage..right

First of all 99% of all aircraft currently in service are not LO or stealth. 100% of all force multipliers like tanker aircraft, jammer aircraft, and AWACs aircraft are not LO or Stealth.
The future of air combat will not be more powerful radars blasting out enormous amounts of energy to find small targets... it will be an air defence network that shares target data.

Consider an IIR missile... this is a missile that has something like a thermal imager in its nose that can form pictures rather than detect hotspots.
An Su-35 flying at high altitude at supersonic speed suddenly gets a pulse of datalink 12 signal and the signal is quite strong. With a long range (say ramjet powered) R-77 with an IIR seeker in war time it can fire on a bearing (because friendly forces wont be using link 12) and that missile can fly for 150km all the while looking for targets totally passively.
With an ARH missile like AMRAAM the missiles seeker has a range limit and is generally fired to an interception point about 20km short of where the target will be when the missile gets there. If the target manouvers during the missile flight then course corrections are sent to the missile via datalink to give it a new interception point.
When the missile reaches its interception point it turns on its radar and starts to scan for the target... first where it should be but spreading out to find it if it is not exactly where it should be.
That is great if you know where the target is and can track its movements and speed and calculate where it will be in the 2 minutes it takes your missile to get to the area.
The two obvious problems is that course corrections signals from the launch aircraft can be detected, and when it goes live the missile emits radar energy and warns of the attack (and of course can be jammed).

Lets say an F-22 is 150km away from an Su-35 and it fires an AMRAAM. 150km is a long way so it will take time for the missile to get to the target area and it is highly likely that the Su-35 might manouver during that time which will require a course correction to a new interception area. This course update is sent by datalink and this is what the Su-35 detects.
The Su-35 pilot immediately fires an IIR R-77M and then turns away.
At high altitude and in supercruise simply by turning and flying away from the F-22 he has defeated the missile which will not have the energy to catch such a target at such long range at such height and at such speed.
The F-22 has no IRST and will not have detected the launch or the incoming missile till it gets much much closer.
The R-77M will fly at high speed in the direction of the detected datalink signal and will be constantly scanning for IR targets. The missile seeker has a database of 3D IR signatures of different targets so as it passes the AMRAAM going the other way it may home in on it, or, as the Su-35 pilot scanned for aircraft and couldn't detect any so he knew it was a stealth aircraft that fired on him he might have set the missile to look for F-35s and F-22s... in which case the R-77M will ignore the AMRAAM and the R-77M will be too small for the AMRAAM to get a lock so they will cross with the AMRAAM running out of fuel and energy and falling to the ground and the R-77M continuing and scanning for potential targets.
The chances of the R-77M finding the F-22 is not great as when it detects the Su-35 turn and leave at supersonic speed at high altitude it might suspect it has been fired upon and do the same.
If the F-22 decides to give chase it will need to accelerate which will increase its IR signature and make the R-77M a real threat. Using its IR database the missile will immediately recognise the F-22 and it will be a priority target.

The Su-35 has not detected or tracked the F-22 so there is no datalink communication between the two to be detected.

Of course such scenarios can be created all day... instead of an AMRAAM shot the datalink activity the Su-35 spotted might have been a UAV passing target data to an AWACs or all manner of things.

The point is that stealth makes things harder but it isn't perfect or invincible.

Stories of F-15s being able to see F-22s but not able to get locks or shoot them down just shows how limited the F-15 is without helmet mounted sights and IRSTs and BVR IR guided missiles etc etc.

...would not suggest that stealth aircraft are easy beats either.

thanks Garry for explanation ++ ...

but ,i don't know what will pakistan pilots will get from that !!, chineses su-30 has no TVC or the radar of indian one !

ahmedfire wrote:
thanks Garry for explanation ++ ...

but ,i don't know what will pakistan pilots will get from that !!, chineses su-30 has no TVC or the radar of indian one !

We have to test the airframe & its manoeuvrability which are the much praised features of Sukhois....We were unable to test their (Russian) AAMs

Most fighter pilots are cocky SOBs... they think their planes are the best because they fly them and they are the best and any advantage the enemy might have will be totally defeated by their ability as pilots etc etc.

Of course they are not stupid either, and given a chance to fly in the other guys plane or anything like it and they will jump at the chance to find weak areas they can exploit in combat.

Iraqs Mig-29s for example probably would have been very effective in Desert Storm if all the NATO pilots operating in Desert Storm hadn't already flown against German pilots in Mig-29s and worked out their strengths and weaknesses.

Very simply if Germany was still split in 1991 those NATO trained pilots would have gone for close in dogfighting knowing their flying skills and quality AAMs would do the job. The first few days of the conflict would have come as a real shock with quite a few NATO pilots getting shot down not realising the effectiveness of R-73s and helmet mounted sights till it was too late. Obviously they would have immediately adapted their tactics and of course they would still have won to conflict... it was the whole world against Iraq... how could they not win?

Even these downgraded Chinese Su-30MKK's are very capable aircraft. They are the pride and joy for these Chinese, as the J-10 can't cut the mustard in many areas especially air to ground missions, and the Su-30's are more agile and have better T/W ratio and power than the ugly J-10's. The Chinese know this very well.......but wont admit to it.

These Su-30MKK's can take on anything that Pakistan AF has in its inventory right now.

Indian Su-30's whipped the shit out of Singaporean F-16 Blk 52's in simulated combat during Sindex a few years ago. It's yesterdays news guys. The Blk-52's came out of that exercise performing poorly. I even remember the Mig-21Bison's with their Kopyo radars and the simulation/ acquisition pods for the RVV-AE's performed very well.

Pakistani's and even these envious Chinese as usual spout off propaganda, and anything they can say to put down Russia. You can see the bullshit comments on Chinese defense sites.

Combat is fluid action/reaction, so any experience a pilot can get to improve his understanding of what his own aircraft can or cannot do, or to improve his understanding of what his potential opponents aircraft can or cannot do will help them do their job better.

Hopefully we will never find out how useful this was... and I mean that for Pakistans sake as much as for Indias sake... a war wouldn't do either country much good.

Well that doesn't detract us from knowing this for a fact that the Chinese talk a lot of stupid shit
Nothing but bullshit! especially considering the facts here that if the Russians had not sold them these MKK's or the old rejected Mig-33 technology (for the FC-1) or the RD-98 or the rejected fukkin crap for the design basis for their J-10 (not to mention the Al-31) they'd be flying the F-6 and F-7 right now.........

You better start laughing buddy.......cuz you know that's right on the money too........

P.S. We got a saying in Pakistan that Chinese Chicken 'Champ'(local slang for chops) fried rice is pretty good........may be the Chinese ought to stick to that before putting down Russia......

The Chinese can do more than just copy, but they are no angels.

A short while back some babies died in China because a Chinese company that made powdered milk got greedy.

To make the powdered milk go further they watered it down so they could sell more for the same costs which equal bigger profits.

Problem was that the watered down milk had lower readings for ingredients than it should have... stuff like fats and things, so they added a chemical to boost certain levels.

Problem was that the chemical they added was harmless in small doses... like with a cup of coffee or four per day, but for babies that only drank milk and had nothing else it proved toxic.

The point is that most of the west is investing in China and sending factories and production there to take advantage of the cheap labour and complete lack of labour laws which makes screwing the workers so much easier than in the west where they have to pay for medical coverage and provide childcare for workers.

It wont be long before the EU caves and starts selling high tech weapons to the Chinese to make a buck or the Chinese simply acquire the technology through espionage...

I am sure in 15-20 years that if the Chinese people don't get proper rights that large numbers of them could be enticed to cross the border and live and work in Russia for perhaps worse wages, but much better social conditions like workers rights and perhaps even the chance to start their own businesses... and they can have as many kids as they want.

Edit: and to reply to your comments you are perfectly correct in saying their newest aircraft are copies of foreign aircraft or upgrades of very old aircraft and that they are yet to master building new modern capable jet engines.

As their economy keeps increasing they will have more and more money to spend on doing something about that up to and including buying foreign companies that make what they want and transferring it to China.

In many ways they are like Japan in the middle of last century... economy booming but lacking natural resources and energy. Who is going to blockade them and force the to use their military to get the resources they need? No one. This is good because it means war is less likely. It also means the only way for the west to survive is to control China by controlling energy resources... and to do that they have much of the energy sector under their thumb... but for complete control they need Russia...

Garry, I don't hear you bust out a laugh on the truth I am dishing out here.....

Without Russian TOT & help in the 90's.......like I said.......these Chinese would be famous for you know what....'China Chicken chaamp frad ras'......as the Pakistani waiters buzz around you at a local Karachi restaurant.

I've seen it dude.....

lulldapull wrote:Garry, I don't hear you bust out a laugh on the truth I am dishing out here.....

Without Russian TOT & help in the 90's.......like I said.......these Chinese would be famous for you know what....'China Chicken chaamp frad ras'......as the Pakistani waiters buzz around you at a local Karachi restaurant.

I've seen it dude.....

You like sarcasm then...
Pakistan never did ridicule Russian technology & your rantings that Chinese speak this sh!t or that comes from civilians & nt their or Pakistan's officials who do regard Soviet technology & the proof; that we have requested Russian engines for our planes & Ukrainian engines for our tanks...the proof that we don't ridicule!!
Russians had helped Chinese & so had rather more immensely helped the Indians...but wait India Tejas & their bulky Arjuns were rejected by their own army officials??
Point being that even for copying great deal of technical know how is necessary & pardon me Indian's lack this....cant see any Inian domestic AAM capability
China is copying but had also started decent domestic(like WS-10 turbofan) technology leaps (still missing in Indians)...we know Indians very well what Indian Pilots are capable of... also look at Indo-Pakistan aerial conflicts where Pakistan won outright..using the Sabres against MiGs....& then Pakistan downed Israeil western planes boarding on the very same MiGs (Russian technology) that India possessed...point being India pilots aren't worthy to man Russian technology

nightcrawler, why are you bringing India into this thread?

Most Pakistani's hate Russia not because of Russian intervention in Afghanistan, but because the U.S. told them and taught them to hate Russia, and that Russia was after warm water ports in Pakistan and blah blah.......bullshit coming out of Washington and disseminated across the board in Pakistan by that harami/ wahabbi Zia-ul-fuk. That's why most Pakistani's also stay quiet when it comes to the question of Palestine, because the U.S. has told them to stay focused on Russia.

China tried to become 'uppity' with Russia around 1961 because of the schism in Communist dogma. The Chinese thought that they had become even better commies than the Russians!

Nikita Khrushchev, with the stroke of a pen relegated China to 30 years of backwardness, and a generation of flying and enjoying the Mig-19 technology for this insolence.

There was no reason for Chaiman Mao to be insolent to Khrushchev. And like I said, if Russia did not help China in the 90's......then you know what China would be flying and enjoying right now.....here I'll give you a hint (Mig-19)...

That stupid drunk Yeltsin transferred a lot of weaponry to China, and the Chinese have shown nothing but ingratitude back to the Russians. Not to mention Photo-Shop and photocopying everything. Just like they copy and paste DVD's, counterfeit medicines, software, pirate DVD's, counterfeit brand name products, Russian weaponry etc....etc....No body likes that shit! Russia never did a TOT for the Flanker or the Al-31, still these Chinese Chikunn copied everything.....

Russia should seriously bitch slap these bhanchod Chinese copycats and take everything back!

The tone you adopted instigated me to bring India in scenario....
Regarding Pakistan hating Russians; yes it was a mistake & I wrote many a times th our forefathers really get bitched by US...but in no way [like you indicated] we dishonour the technology achievements of the Russians & believe me had it not been India we would definitely want to have Sukhois in our inventory..

Regarding Chinese; well I do know people who disregard Russians but does it reflect the official statements...NO. Chinese know the importance of Russian technology & they regard it well...the latest proof is that a country like China so deeply driven by culture & customs had introduced Russian in their elementary schools as a compulsory language...sth I hope for Pakistan; but the real problem with Russian literature is that its deeply driven by Marxism theology something religiously driven societies would never accept

Russia should seriously bitch slap these bhanchod Chinese copycats and take everything back!

Russia isn't stupid... they have been through 20 years of hard times and had to do deals they likely wouldn't otherwise do to survive.

They are through that now and will likely only make available material that is not state of the art stuff.

...or offer to use Chinese cash to develop new technologies so that China pays the development costs.

Lots of western companies have built factories in China to take advantage of the cheap labour and lax labour laws... certainly Russia could benefit from some of that technology and of course the funding to pursue technologies that the West is not really interested in like alternatives to fossil fuels. Russia has plenty of coal and gas and oil, but it never hurts to invest in renewable energy sources they can take advantage of.

Regarding Pakistan hating Russians; yes it was a mistake & I wrote many a times th our forefathers{snip}

It was a cold war thing... Pakistan needs to realise that Russia is no longer trying to push any ideology on the world and it just wants to do business for mutual benefit.
You can be cold war about it and treat them like "the bad guys", or you can move forward into the 21st C and deal with some people who just want to improve their lot and are happy to improve your lot at the same time.

Russia certainly has good relations with India... but if India can look to the US for stuff Russia can certainly look in other places to trade.

I doubt we are talking big military contracts, but they are certainly not after warm water ports... that is just ridiculous.

It was a cold war thing... Pakistan needs to realise that Russia is no longer trying to push any ideology on the world and it just wants to do business for mutual benefit.
You can be cold war about it and treat them like "the bad guys", or you can move forward into the 21st C and deal with some people who just want to improve their lot and are happy to improve your lot at the same time.

Russia certainly has good relations with India... but if India can look to the US for stuff Russia can certainly look in other places to trade.

I doubt we are talking big military contracts, but they are certainly not after warm water ports... that is just ridiculous.

We are obliged by Russians & are moving in 21st century:

Pakistan nEW fRIend Russia

Cooperation in our railway network & energy sector; much needed here in Pakistan. Plus if anyone didn't know the Russians in 1960s gave us two things of such an immense scale that till date its unparalleled. namely our only Steel Factory & the partially completed Kalabagh Dam.
Now the Russians has indicated to exercise developments in these two sectors as well as enlarging the steel mill as well as reinvigorating the Steel mill. In return Pakistan government has to included Russians (along with Chinese) in the development & share of Gwadar port (warm water Garry ). Gawadar port is to act as an international port...

With global warming all of Russias' ports will be warm water...

Seriously though... it is good to hear about such cooperation.

So often we focus on differences... we need a good scare like an alien invasion to bring humanity together...

nightcrawler wrote:also look at Indo-Pakistan aerial conflicts where Pakistan won outright..using the Sabres against MiGs....& then Pakistan downed Israeil western planes boarding on the very same MiGs (Russian technology) that India possessed...point being India pilots aren't worthy to man Russian technology