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    Pakistan - US relations

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    nightcrawler

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    Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:18 pm

    RAWALPINDI: On the day WikiLeaks released a slew of American diplomatic cables revealing, among other things, tensions between the US and Pakistan over nuclear matters, a top Pakistani military official claimed the country “has transited from the ‘most sanctioned ally’ to the ‘most bullied ally’” of the US.

    The comments were part of a wide-ranging briefing given to editors, anchors and columnists on Sunday. The timing of the briefing appeared to be a coincidence, having been scheduled before the WikiLeaks information became public. All comments were made strictly on the condition of anonymity being maintained.

    Detailing frank exchanges between the uppermost echelons of the Pakistan military and the Obama administration, the senior military official listed a catalogue of complaints the ‘people of Pakistan’ have against the US.

    These include: the US still has a ‘transactional’ relationship with Pakistan; the US is interested in perpetuating a state of ‘controlled chaos’ in Pakistan; and, perhaps most explosively given the WikiLeaks’ revelations, the “real aim of US strategy is to de-nuclearise Pakistan”.

    The official also repeatedly stressed that the ‘frames of reference’ of the US and Pakistan with regard to regional security matters “can never be the same and this must be acknowledged”. Furthermore, the official claimed, the dichotomy between short-term US interests and long-term Pakistani security interests needs to be kept in mind at all times.

    When asked about the outlook for relations between the US and Pakistan in the year ahead, the military commander gave a downbeat assessment: “I see difficulties and pitfalls. Things are so complex (in the region).”

    On Afghanistan, the official suggested the Americans need to “clearly identify and state the end conditions in Afghanistan”. The commander also claimed the lack of clarity on the Americans’ part was because “either they aren’t willing to state them (the desired ‘end conditions’) or they don’t know themselves”.

    Giving a personal assessment of the situation in Afghanistan, the senior official suggested what is needed in the neighbouring country is a “minimum agenda with broad public support”.

    Elaborating on that minimum agenda, the official said there “are indicators that the parties to the conflict in Afghanistan can renounce Al Qaeda and ask it to leave Afghanistan”.

    Stressing that in Afghanistan the “peace may never be complete, there may be no permanent stability and uncontested power may never establish itself”, the official suggested a minimalist, three-step sequential process towards a “peaceful and stable” Afghanistan.

    First, violence in Afghanistan will need to be brought down, and for this “some concessions may have to be made”. Next, all parties would have to renounce Al Qaeda. And finally, some kind of consensus on a future Afghan constitution would have to be negotiated keeping in mind the “history, culture and geography” of the country.

    The official rejected the possibility of Pakistan intensifying efforts to interdict militants crossing into Afghanistan: “If we have to look after the border as well as settled areas, the valleys (in the tribal areas), well, that’s mutually exclusive…. Helmand and Kandahar are hundreds of kilometres from the (Pak-Afghan) border. Kabul is far away from North Waziristan. If they (troops in Afghanistan) want to catch them, why don’t they?”

    The senior army official had harsh comments for the Afghan government. Recounting the frequent Afghan accusations against this country — Pakistan is keeping the Taliban as ‘an option’; Pakistan is ‘shielding the Quetta Shura’; Pakistan is ‘harbouring and supporting the Haqqanis’, etc — the senior officer responded with a list of Pakistani grievances.

    “Pakistan is deliberately being kept in the dark regarding peace efforts…. Pakistan has suffered because of Afghanistan the most…. Many Afghans in leadership role continue to hold malice against Pakistan,” the official claimed.

    However, the official added “the bottom line is, destinies of Pakistan and Afghanistan are intertwined and must be seen as one…. An early end to conflict in Afghanistan is key to Pakistan.”

    Inevitably, India featured in the comments on both Afghanistan and the US.

    Regarding Afghan-India relations, the official said, “Pakistan has no right or desire to dictate Afghanistan’s relations with any country, including India. But Pakistan expects Afghanistan will be mindful of legitimate security concerns (of Pakistan).”

    On the triangle of US-Pak-India relations, the commander had this to offer: “The people of Pakistan measure the strength of US-Pak relations on the scale of US-India partnership.”

    The commander went on to argue that while Pakistan could not afford to be in a “state of perpetual conflict with India” and has to “strike a balance between defence and development”, “we cannot afford to ignore our basic defence needs.”In sum, the comments on Afghanistan, India and the US suggest the Pakistan Army’s ‘India-centric’ approach to strategic issues is still very much in place, with only minor adjustments made to accommodate the changed regional security environment in the 21st century.

    In detailed comments on the military’s approach to North Waziristan Agency, the senior official said, “(The US) has an increased focus on North Waziristan for understandable reasons.

    But the official added there was serious domestic cause for concern, too: “Most terrorist attacks inside Pakistan originate from North Waziristan. So the question is not if but when and how to tackle it militarily.”

    Nevertheless, citing three factors, the official downplayed the possibility of an imminent operation in NWA. First, the official said, South Waziristan needs to be resettled. Second, the country had to prepare for the ‘serious blowback’ of an operation in NWA, which would include terrorist attacks in the cities and a fresh wave of Internally Displaced Persons.

    Third, the official stressed the need for the “creation of a political consensus”. Referring to a similar consensus developed in the run-up to Operation Rah-i-Rast in Swat, the official suggested politicians, the media and the Pakistani public would have to demonstrate their support for a military operation in NWA before the army would undertake one.

    When told of Prime Minister Gilani’s comment that there is no need for a fresh consensus because the support for the operation in South Waziristan also extends to North Waziristan, the official responded sharply: “I will not do it unless there is a political consensus on North Waziristan.”

    Pakistan the ?most bullied US ally? | Latest news, Breaking news, Pakistan News, World news, business, sport and multimedia | DAWN.COM
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  IronsightSniper on Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:41 am

    This is quite expected, as I see it, with the situation "toning down" in Afghanistan, most of the baddies are lurking somewhere in Pakistan. This means 3 possible options; 1. Invade Pakistan (bad idea) 2. Give Pakistan money and tell them to combat them (doesn't seem to be working) 3. UAV/UCAV strike said areas (works fine, until it gets on the 10 o'clock news). So, all that crap does lead to Pakistan being one of our most mistreated allies so far.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:02 pm

    I always have to laugh when Pakistan complains of drone strikes. It is not like they are bombing Lahore. The strikes are in NWFP and ISI is the one giving them intelligence where to send the Reapers. If Pakistan didn't approve it they could easily send an F-16 to start shooting them down... but they never will.
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    Russian Patriot

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  Russian Patriot on Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:22 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:I always have to laugh when Pakistan complains of drone strikes. It is not like they are bombing Lahore. The strikes are in NWFP and ISI is the one giving them intelligence where to send the Reapers. If Pakistan didn't approve it they could easily send an F-16 to start shooting them down... but they never will.

    This is the one time I agree with the Americans, if Pakistan does not care about terrorists , the whole world except it does!

    KRON1

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  KRON1 on Thu Dec 02, 2010 1:42 am

    Russian Patriot wrote:

    This is the one time I agree with the Americans, if Pakistan does not care about terrorists , the whole world except it does!

    Pakistan cares just as much as you or me. The fact is they are in a politically tough situation. People get angry when the government kills their own. It is easier for them to openly blame Americans while quietly giving intel for strikes. It wasn't long ago the drones actually took off from Pakistan.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:01 pm

    When our previous president [Musharraf] got the ultimatum from US Bushy
    "Either help us or be ready to be nuked to stone age"
    .....then tell me what choice we have got!!
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  IronsightSniper on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:33 am

    We'd probably would of actually just gave tech support to India and some backing so they can do the hard work to be honest.
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:12 pm

    IronsightSniper wrote:We'd probably would of actually just gave tech support to India and some backing so they can do the hard work to be honest.
    This ain't a very good idea of India fighting Taliban; you have neglected the religious factor that is much serious in Talibans;; now its a fighting b/w the people of the book i.e Christians & you can then guess what havoc Talibans will play against idol worshippers & besides Pakistan will never accept this!!
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    IronsightSniper

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  IronsightSniper on Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:48 pm

    Well, we've tried Pakistan, that isn't going great, might as well throw caution to the wind and call in India.

    Corrosion

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:41 pm

    ^^^ What? I thought US was going to fight the cross border terrorists for us(India)? Wink
    I mean dont Indian politicians always try to convince US that we are victim of terror and please force Pakistan to act on so called non-state actors within Pakistan.

    As far as Afghan Taliban is concerned, I dont think they are direct enemies of India. India wont get militarily involved in Afghanistan.

    As far as Pakistan is concerned, something like another Mumbai attack can worsen things quickly.

    But if US asks for logistics support, I think it might work. Dont know how useful India can be since any land supplies have to travel through Pakistan territory.

    Corrosion

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  Corrosion on Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:05 pm

    The thing is current civilian leadership of Pakistan is corrupt and powerless. ISI and Pak Army call shots in pakistan, ISI covertly. Civilian leaders cant piss off the Army too much for a fear of another coup. Pakistan has some quite capable leaders like Imran Khan(Ex-Cricketer), unfortunately they dont have large enough vote banks to form a govt at centre and do some changes in the system.

    lulldapull

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:22 pm

    I don't understand what all this hoo haa is about.

    The Pakistani nukes have long been carted out the back door, just like in the case of South Africa, when the blacks were about to take power.

    Pakistan is on life support. The country is broke and bankrupt. It is living on handouts for the last 15 years and ppl actually believe that the nukes are still in control of that corrupt Pakistani military? lol!

    Trust me guys.......I spent an year in that Godforsaken country and it is a basket case! Major ethnic strife in Karachi, serious terrorism all around the country perpetuated by anyone imaginable, fukkin Drone strikes daily......Religious fanatics totally outta control.......common ppl are just starving and hustling to get by now.

    People over there in Karachi were just waiting for it to come apart......

    I think the worst bullying is yet to come when the U.S. invades with large numbers of special forces and escalates the drone strikes big-time to kill and capture the rebels. Now that will be the straw that breaks the camel's back!

    Once there is rebellion within the Pakistani army....and there are signs that the Pukhtoons and Baloch hate the majority Punjabi's.....than we will see a former Yugoslavia type situation unfolding.
    e
    The challenge for the U.S. would then be on how to try to keep the various ethnicities segregated......

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:31 pm

    ^^
    Sure as hell our politicians are worse; but same doesnt hold for our army & pilots

    lulldapull

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  lulldapull on Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:53 pm

    I totally disagree! Most Punjabi's the dominant ethnic group in Pakistan and the most prevalent in Pakistan in government and military etc are extremely corrupt and prone to cronyism, nepotism among many other vices. The Sindhi's are considered even more corrupt than the Punjabi's in terms of accepting bribes, extortion etc.

    I don't know how old you are Nightcrawler, but I worked up at Government level last year on a major Oil & Gas project in Pakistan. So having to deal with Government officials accepting bribes or asking for favors is a pretty routine thing over there. I seen how corrupt you can actually be being from a certain ethnic background. Shocked

    The worst part was that unless you gave millions of dollars to the minister or General or some bastard Sindhi/ Punjabi high up in the Government you were not going to get the project on merit or your company's capabilities didn't matter. It was all about the kickback that the corrupt Sindhi/ Punjabi guy was to receive from you in exchange for you 'bidding' and then 'winning' the project.

    That's why nobody wants to do business in that corrupt country.

    P.S. Btw, since I work for a multi-national, and have worked in India as well.......you got a similar corruption issue with Hindu Punjabi's and Sikh's......brothers I guess...... lol!

    lulldapull

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  lulldapull on Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:13 pm

    I wont be surprised if this were the truth about all the false flag shit being carried out by the CIA/ Mossad/ RAW and targeting Pakistan for even more concessions and control:

    http://www.opinion-maker.org/2010/12/encirclement-of-pakistan/

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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue Dec 28, 2010 4:08 pm

    ^^
    You are right sir; the properties owned/leased are all in the hands of corrupted people>>I totally agree that here in Punjab unless you are inside a political shadow you can't get a green light for any of your business venture; same too goes for other provinces; but does that mean that our army is incapable to defend our country; the answer you know better. We are still clinging to a power thrice our own size; but do dug out historical facts & you will know that we had though made mistakes but yes our soldiers are a force to beckon with.
    Our condition is much like the same Russian Oligarchs era; & we need a Putin like leader

    lulldapull

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  lulldapull on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:13 am

    You know nightcrawler.........all this corruption is fine......the bribes, the liquor, the women, the fukkin whole 9 yards.........this thinh happens everywhere here in the West too.....

    But when you put the country on the line for your personal feuds and personal gains, then we all got a problem!

    That's where Pakistan and the character of those that govern it (PAk Army being the top in that list) fails!
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    nightcrawler

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  nightcrawler on Thu Dec 30, 2010 9:41 pm

    lulldapull wrote:You know nightcrawler.........all this corruption is fine......the bribes, the liquor, the women, the fukkin whole 9 yards.........this thinh happens everywhere here in the West too.....

    But when you put the country on the line for your personal feuds and personal gains, then we all got a problem!

    That's where Pakistan and the character of those that govern it (PAk Army being the top in that list) fails!
    study ; I can't disagree with you.
    But look on the bright side our army has proven more than once that it is ready to defend our country primarily from India. Historical records do prove this. Corruption yes its there & always will be; but the thing is not whole of the army is corrupted!! you can't put fingers upon PAF pilots or army servicemen; yes some the elite generals are corrupt.
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    George1

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  George1 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:28 am

    US to sell eight F-16s to Pakistan

    WASHINGTON: The United States is preparing to sell eight new F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, a media report has said ahead of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif's meeting with President Barack Obama today.

    According to a report in New York Times, the Congress was notified just days ago about the proposed sale of the additional fighters although it is not clear if the White House plans to announce the sale of the aircraft during Sharif's trip.

    Sharif landed in the US on October 20 on a state visit, and is schediuled to meet Obama today.

    The new fighter jets would add to Pakistan's sizable force of fighter jets which includes more than 70 F-16s and dozens of French and Chinese attack aircraft, it said.

    Earlier in April, the US State Department approved Pakistan's request for a billion dollars worth of military hardware and equipment, identifying Pakistan as a country of vital importance for US foreign policy and national interests.

    Dawn newspaper reported that in May this year, the US handed over to Pakistan over 14 combat aircraft, 59 military trainer jets and 374 armoured personnel carriers.

    The weapons supplied to Pakistan were earlier used by American forces in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The report said that many in the US Congress are concerned that the F-16 jets are more useful to Pakistan in its long confrontation with India than for counterterrorism operations.

    It is not certain whether the Congress will approve the deal.

    According to the report, the Congress and the US State Department are already in a standoff over an effort to sell used Navy cutter vessels to Pakistan earlier this year.

    In March, the US House Committee on Foreign Affairs put a hold on about $150 million in foreign military financing.

    The committee said the cutters were not essential to fighting militants, NYT quoted US officials as saying.

    - See more at: http://www.defencenews.in/article/US-to-sell-eight-F-16s-to-Pakistan-37#sthash.yjBNN47U.dpuf


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    George1

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:35 am

    US Congress Moves Against Pakistani F-16 Deal

    ISLAMABAD — The US Congress is reported to have stymied Pakistani efforts to further acquire F-16 fighter jets, according to reports in local media. Analysts say the move could have implications for the bilateral relationship at a sensitive time if the proposed deal stalls altogether.

    The deal has apparently been put on hold by Congress in an effort to impede its progress, something the Obama administration is reportedly attempting to reverse.

    The news was first reported by Pakistan's 'Dawn' media group on Tuesday, citing local diplomatic and congressional sources. It claimed the moves were being spearheaded by increasingly anti-Pakistani/pro-Indian lawmakers, naming and quoting Rep. Ted Poe, R-Texas, and Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, Calif., as examples.

    The proposed deal was first revealed in November 2015, with a formal FMS notification made in early December.

    http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2016/01/12/us-congress-moves-against-pakistani-f-16-deal/78712710/


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    max steel

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    Re: Pakistan - US relations

    Post  max steel on Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:14 pm

    Pakistan eyes used Jordanian F-16 jets after deal buy new jets US fails

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