Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Share

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:36 pm

    yeah ,troubled zvezda on far east that cant finish anything 5 years behind scedule and already full of surface and submarine maintenance orders  is in much better state....
    oh wait !

    all the while zaliv (bay) is empty of orders.

    then again this in black see and could be problems with turkey, so pacific ice free open ocean is logical place.

    Dima
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1035
    Points : 1050
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:04 pm

    Militarov wrote:I have my doubts regarding actually building something of Ulyanovsk type there, from what i recall it was over 80m wide at the deck and over 40 at the beam, that is not easy to be put there.
    Nimitz class
    Length: 332.8 m overall
               317.0 m waterline
    Beam: 76.8 m overall
              40.8 m waterline

    Ulyanovsk class
    Length: 321.2 m overall
    Beam: 83.9 m overall
              40 m waterline

    Kuznetsov class
    Length: 305 m
    Beam: 72 m overall
             
    QE class
    Length: 280 m
    Beam: 39 m waterline
              70 m overall

    These are the dimensions of large carriers for a quick look. The Zaliv shipyards dry dock we are talking about here is of 354 x 60m in dimension and compares well with the Nikolayev 330 x 40m. Overall length of the dock is is of no problem.  

    You need space on sides for equipment. I mean there is a reason why carriers were built in Nikolayev and not anywhere else, i guess its doable with some jungling with sections being moved and assembled in outfitting quay.
    I don't understand your space requirement for equipments on the sides. We are looking at likely future construction with large hull sections, probably 6-8 large sections (?).

    Take a look CVF construction, they worked up the hull sections inside this tight fit. Max beam of CVF at waterline is 39 meters, so you can guess how much that dry dock is about. With Zaliv we have a 60 m wide dry dock which is 20m wider than what you see below.



    If installation of overhangs interfere with the cranes, it can be done after floating out with dock side cranes.


    But no one is going to start work with the yard as it is now. If at all a carrier programme is initiated and Zaliv is selected (or for that matter any other yard), preliminary preparation will be undertaken at the yard which will do away with the shortcomings.

    Dima
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1035
    Points : 1050
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:11 pm

    Rmf wrote:its simple- zaliv was busy with largest civilian & commercial projects. nikolaev was pure military base from historic times with 330x40 dock where largest battleships were to be constructed in ww2 but scrapped, and latter ulyanovsk carrier .
    People due to some odd reasons fail to understand this. Similar stuff that comes to mind is that of production of propulsion units. Soviet Russia concentrated its premier N-propulsion units in-house where as allmost all the conventional units were put in the Ukranian basket. This as we see now have come back to bite hard.

    Its a good thing that Russia have regained a large capacity yard which it had to loose earlier. It is right time to channel funds for this yard and make it a well oiled unit. If funds are available the possibilities are numerous. From corvettes to aircraft carriers.

    Dima
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1035
    Points : 1050
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:14 pm

    artjomh wrote:Zaliv is not in a great shape right now.
    Can you name one Russian shipyard which was/is in good shape?

    Building a combat ship, much less an aircraft carrier (good joke!), is beyond their wildest dreams in terms of actual implementation.
    Would you like to expand your thoughts on why the possibility of building a carrier at Zaliv is a good joke?

    Dima
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1035
    Points : 1050
    Join date : 2012-03-22

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Dima on Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:21 pm

    Rmf wrote:yeah ,troubled zvezda on far east that cant finish anything 5 years behind scedule and already full of surface and submarine maintenance orders  is in much better state....
    oh wait !  

    all the while zaliv (bay) is empty of orders.

    then again this in black see and could be problems with turkey, so pacific ice free open ocean is logical place.
    Yes, an ice free area is always good to have and a yard to cater for Black sea, Mediterranean and Indian Ocean requirements would be fine. If they have no immediate plans for an a/c carrier I would like to see the monopoly on Pr.22350 being broken and start a parallel production line at Zaliv. But preparatory work needs to be funded and Russian Govt shouldnt shy away from it. It will be a good boost to the frigate/destroyer construction if the yard can be fully prepared for all classes of ships in 18-24 months.

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:12 pm

    lets be honest bolshoy kamen - just east of vladivostok -was chosen like 5-6 years ago for major construction dock and upgrade,  aaaand still not much is done ,and it was at a time crimea was part of ukraine.
    now situation has changed workers at zaliv would love to get hands on some big project ,possibly a new russian destroyer or even carrier.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7301
    Points : 7611
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:22 pm

    Rmf wrote:lets be honest bolshoy kamen - just east of vladivostok -was chosen like 5-6 years ago for major construction dock and upgrade,  aaaand still not much is done ,and it was at a time crimea was part of ukraine.
    now situation has changed workers at zaliv would love to get hands on some big project ,possibly a new russian destroyer or even carrier.

    I hope you are not talking of Zevzda shipyard cause I posted recent video of it and what was shown last year. Major strides has happened in its construction. And with supposed orders of $39B, it will definately do well. Mind you, those orders are civillian and not military.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:26 pm

    artjomh wrote:Zaliv is not in a great shape right now.

    They wish they could build some auxilliary right now. Building a combat ship, much less an aircraft carrier (good joke!), is beyond their wildest dreams in terms of actual implementation.

    Only investment Zaliv had in the last 25 years was for painting its cranes in the blue and yellow national colours of the Ukrainian flag.

    Comical, just comical.

    artjomh
    Sergeant
    Sergeant

    Posts : 151
    Points : 187
    Join date : 2015-07-17

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  artjomh on Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:30 am

    Dima wrote:Can you name one Russian shipyard which was/is in good shape?

    Sevmash? Admiralty? Yantar? Zelenodolsk? Pella?

    Would you like to expand your thoughts on why the possibility of building a carrier at Zaliv is a good joke?

    Zaliv has lost A LOT of manpower, they don't have enough qualified workers for a lot of jobs and everyone else is working half-shifts doing minor jobs. Their cutting and pressing equipment is also in a poor state.

    Right now they "on paper" have two orders to build fleet oilers (Project 23131) for the Russian Navy, but in reality they are not building anything, just trying to fix up some of the current mess.

    PS: Is anyone else getting a feeling that none of this has anything to do with Mig-29K? Maybe the mods should strip out a "Russian maritime industry and engineering" thread, or something.

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:30 pm

    oh no , its the russian strooonk crew , everybody ruuuuuuuun....

    on a serious note didnt rogozin say when he visit far east that zvezda will need 10.000 skilled workers or something ,and they already repair anteis guided missile subs, strategic subs ,and attack subs, plus surface ships?!?!
    so, not even zvezda has any manpower for big projects, and i bet its more pleasent and better conditions to work outdoors in warm crimea then there.
    far east has lot of rain in summer.


    Last edited by Rmf on Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7301
    Points : 7611
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:33 pm

    When it is completed. Zvezda wont be completed till 2018. So there are still a few more years to go.

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:52 pm

    what i meant unlike subs and frigates outfitting of carriers and cruisers must be done outside of buildings in the open, and crimea has prolonged and drier summer.
    werent they constructing big new port for black fleet just across at novorosysk   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novorossiysk  , when first orange revolution happened and problems with ukraine occured for lease of sevastopol??
    So there, you can stop that and poore funds and manpower and upgrade zaliv.

    here is google view of zaliv (eng: bay) in Kerch   http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=45.259014&ln=36.420085&z=4&k=2&a=1&tab=1&pl=all
    and zvezda (eng: star) in Bolshoy Kamen           http://www.panoramio.com/map/#lt=43.119201&ln=132.339839&z=4&k=2&a=1&tab=1&pl=all

    with some pictures. just zoom in and out.

    medo
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3096
    Points : 3194
    Join date : 2010-10-24
    Location : Slovenia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  medo on Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:50 pm

    Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:07 pm

    medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

    Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:31 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

    Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.
    yeah i think they can float it and tow it without power -like chinese did with casino carrier- power at shaft is 200.000hp for kuznetsov (150 MW ) and some other powersources, and that icebreaker reactor mentioned is perfect at 170MW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK-150_reactor
    so float it out and put reactor module in st. petersburg or somewhere. remember in nuclear-electric generation you can put it anywhere on ship.

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    temp carrier thread

    Post  Militarov on Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:44 pm

    Rmf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:Russia will not build real aircraft carriers in Black sea shipyards, because real carriers are not allowed to sail through Bosporus. I think In Zvazda shipyard they will be for Pacific fleet and one big shipyard in the north or Baltic for Northern fleet.

    Carriers and nuclear powered ships. Unless they build sections there and haul them somewhere for assembly, that maybe.
    yeah i think they can float it and tow it without power -like chinese did with casino carrier- power at shaft is 200.000hp for kuznetsov (150 MW ) and some other powersources, and that icebreaker reactor mentioned is perfect at 170MW https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OK-150_reactor
    so float it out and put reactor module in st. petersburg or somewhere. remember in nuclear-electric generation you can put it anywhere on ship.

    No i mean they could build sections somewhere on Crimea and then tow them to Zvezda or Sevmash and assemble them there with sections built there, like they did with Mistral, half of it was built in France, half in Russia. You just tow pieces to one shipyard and assemble them there.

    Rmf
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 432
    Points : 427
    Join date : 2013-05-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Rmf on Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:22 pm

    towing to admiralty in st petersburg is much closer then far east.

    that black see nuclear ban is problematic ,means zaliv cant even build new nuclear destroyers.... back to building panamax tankers then, it can take some work from zvezda while they are busy building carriers.
    i guess they could finish carrier 90% but leave a hole in the deck for reactor unit with generator - nuclear-electric- , to be put down into ship in st. petersburg , simmilar to nuclear submarines.
    http://defense-update.com/images_large3/varyag_dalian.jpg

    GarryB
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 15858
    Points : 16563
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:30 am

    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:10 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

    See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

    So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

    Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  flamming_python on Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

    It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

    Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
    This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
    Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

    See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

    So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

    Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

    I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

    Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

    While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
    Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:58 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

    It's irrelevant what the Russian military wants, they have no say in Russia's economic policies/planning and can only post requirements and make orders.

    Yes, shipyards are part of the military-industrial complex, therefore they are strategic in nature. However, the Russian government has specified that it wants defence companies to start moving to a dual-use product model, and start developing products for the civilian market that will be competitive on the international market.
    This has to be accomplished by the year 2020; or rather for tangible results to start appearing by then - as that is the year that the current military procurement plan will end.
    Military orders after that will of course continue but they will be considerably smaller in volume as compared to today, therefore it is imperative for the military-industrial complex to secure civilian customers both domestic and foreign, in order to retain their industrial capacities and expertise, and not shrivel up once the defence orders start to dry up.

    Militarov wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Russia atm has only small fragment of worlds commercial shipbuilding market, with few big drydocks they could chop nice part of market and earn some serious money.

    The Russian military/Navy does not want lots of commercial products being built in Russian shipyards... they want those shipyards available for their contracts... not some foreign or domestic companies.

    See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    Shipyards in Russia are in state in which they are atm exacly coz of thing you just said. They simply did not learn how to work on free market, they always lived on state orders, when they slowed and ceased they died out. Its not like Russia is ordering 10 major sized ships each year for its navy like US does, even that wouldnt make them solvent.

    So what Russia does is they dig out ores, sell half product to Japan, Japan makes high quality construction AB steel from it and sell it to Korea, Korea builds ship and then Russians buy that ship for Lukoil. Instead of investing those wasted hundreds of millions between ore and ship in own steelworks and shipyards. And this is true, you can say its not.

    Dont tell me you would not like to see one Japan or UK ordering large oilers, TNG carriers or cruise ships from Russian shipyards? You would, however that will never happen if they do what you just said, building military ships that take 10 years to be finished like that Gren disaster.

    I don't disagree with your overall critique, however your information is out of date.

    Russian shipyards have been reviving now over the past 5 years, and largely thanks to a swelling of state orders from the MoD, as well as orders from large state-conglomerates such as Gazprom, and military export and some civilian export orders too.

    While you may think that state orders are a sign of bad things, it was neccessery for the revival of Russian shipyards from their extremely dilapidated state, on average, for investment into modernization and the training of new cadres.
    Now that this process is well underway, Russian shipyards are seeing more civilian orders too, and can gradually break into the global market.

    Actually you have dozen of shipyards that are literally abandoned in Russia, i am not talking about those few that are currently in favor of MoD so they got few orders, i am talking about overall shipbuilding in Russia. I am not saying orders from state are bad, i am saying you cant base your shipbuilding on it, noone does that anywhere else except in North Korea i guess. While shipbuilding did change alot during last decade its still in quite bad shape except 2-3 biggest shipyards.

    I love how i get downvoted every time i say the truth on this forum. On the MESS you get downvoted for pointing good stuff about Russia, here you get it for noticing issues in Russia.

    ExBeobachter1987
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 447
    Points : 447
    Join date : 2014-11-26
    Age : 29
    Location : Western Eurasia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Mon Oct 12, 2015 2:39 am

    Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
    The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
    You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
    And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:01 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
    The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
    You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
    And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

    Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

    I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

    ExBeobachter1987
    Junior Lieutenant
    Junior Lieutenant

    Posts : 447
    Points : 447
    Join date : 2014-11-26
    Age : 29
    Location : Western Eurasia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  ExBeobachter1987 on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:26 am

    Militarov wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
    The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
    You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
    And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

    Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

    I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

    In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
    In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
    No orders, no investments.
    In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

    The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

    Militarov
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 5259
    Points : 5304
    Join date : 2015-09-02
    Location : Serbia

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Militarov on Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:40 am

    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    ExBeobachter1987 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:See, that is why USSR/Russia never had decent fridge or TV of their own, always importing basic civilian products. You need to sell commercial products first to earn money and build ship for military purposes, thats called economy. Also only fraction of shipyards remain operational compared to what existed in USSR time, i guess those are kept abandoned and rotting awaiting for future orders? No.. they are abandoned and decaying coz there were no orders coz USSR collapsed, and they could have survived easily if they were getting civilian orders with no issue whatsoever, some shipyards in US/Europe that exist for over 100 years have never built military ship in their history except during WW2,. Every major size shpyard is building both civiliand and military ships, actually military ships are just fraction of world shipping production. Samsung in South Korea is building 70 hulls per year, i dont believe they ever built more than 10 ships per year with military purposes.

    What kind of civilian orders are you talking about?
    The dissolution of the Soviet Union was also a dissolution of the Soviet economy.
    You can't expect enough domestic civilian orders in such a situation, especially when buying foreign products is encouraged.
    And getting enough foreign orders is hard unless you are already very competitive.

    Exacly, there were none, you are missing the point. Even ships that WERE oredered by Russian civilian sector during 90s and early 2000s were ordered abroad not from Russian shipyards, and what you just said is what i am talking about here, why USSR shipbuilding failed, they were never trying to get competitive on civilian market they were just making military ships and occasionally some oilers, tugs and similar. Orders from state were significant so they were like "noone cares if we build ships same way last 40 years, state shall order anyways coz they got no choice", and that is why they died out after USSR collapsed, if they tried to spend some money on shipbuilding research beside strictly military applications they might have survived 90s. I am talking here about foreign orders in Russian shipyards, there are barely any even today, and if shipyards were doing something on becoming competitive they wouldnt be in situation they were and sadly some still are.

    I know coz it was same in Yugoslavia post 1991. our companies died out coz of lack of research and when import bans ceased to exist they simply died out. Even companies that had good high quality products died out coz noone wanted to buy domestic stuff, they were rather buying Chinese, Turkish and Italian stuff. I lived though crash of industry here, and shipyards too, my father worked as engineer in one huge company that was producing tooling machines, today most of it was converted into bisquit/sweets production...

    In order to get non-state orders, shipyards need to be competitive.
    In order to be competitive, investments are necessary.
    No orders, no investments.
    In the end, it is either state orders or de-industrialisation.

    The positive difference between now and the Soviet-era is that domestic shipyards cannot rely on the same protection from foreign competition, but without investments (from the state) it won't help the shipyards to get better.

    Actually ideal solution would be state orders + external investments (state, loans doesnt rly matter) + reinvesting profit, also integrating smaller shipyards, abandoned ones, less capable ones etc with big shipyards is great idea, they can deal with smaller ships or building sections etc and you this way free main shipyard faster for additional orders and even more important you save jobs for people.

    Also important aspect of shipbuilding in Russia is steel, certain companies that have technology to produce marine grade construction AB steel are refusing often to cooperate coz apparently amounts ordered are not big enough to be economical for them to start production of it, and those that would deliver even those amounts lack technology or resources. So some wider investments are required to revive shipbuilding, here you can add marine tooling machines, electronics used for ships etc even paints and sealing materials. My father would take few cans of some special waterproof sealing material (i belive it was some kind of silicone rubber that his company was obtaining from Germany) and gift it to engineers in Russia when he was visiting them on business trips back in 80s coz they lacked it there, so its not that simple as one might think.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Russian Naval Shipbuilding: News

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:16 am