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    Il-276 (SVTS) Medium Transport

    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:19 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:Except that's quite the opposite. As shown in the Syrian theater, where is the need for the supersonic capabilities of a Su-24s and Su-34s on low-tech guerrillas on Toyota trucks who are residing in haphazard bunkers? What immense military technological ability and skill/training that they wield that requires a Su-34's immense ECM capabilities? Leer-3's are usually more than enough for that role. Wouldn't it make more sense to preserve the lifetime of their airframes on better equipped enemies, requiring better tactics (SEAD/DEAD) as opposed to being just glorified bomb trucks? Also the comment "better not putting too much focus in this, counter insurgence in foreign lands" is quite amusing considering all the fighting that happened in Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia, and or future insurgencies that could find itself in Central Asia/Trans-caucuses, which is one of the reasons why the Federation is dropping bombs in Syria right now....So it wouldn't spread to Eurasia eventually.
    I know what you mean and I essentially agree in your proposals, from a technical perspective. MoD is aware too of the lower demands of COIN operations and developing some tactics and equipment for them. I just wouldn't like Russia focussing too much in these deeds and forgetting its main mission. Until now the level of resources and doctrinal adaptation involved was modest due to a very sober approach to Syrian conflict. But geopolitical challenges are everywhere and can progressively lead to loss of focus and mission, as well as huge expenses and frankly, loss of legitimacy if not managed with the due restrain, as has been the case with US. The risk for overreaching is there too for RF after the success in Syria. Intelligence, special forces, AD and some air power are ok if the situation is critical, if not diplomacy is the way to go. Army involvement like in Afghanistan is IMHO flawed and should be avoided. In a conflict, the rule should be that the affected country does the heavy lifting and not RF. The moment we see a Russian gunship like the AC-130 we know they have decided to emulate US as world's policeman instead of remaining concentrated in their real mission.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:47 pm

    Then we should focus on underwing pylons for stores. A small multi-purpose radar plus an optronic turret in the nose for targeting. You could add unguided missiles and gun pods under the wings for use as a gunship or add recon or EW pods + anti-radar missiles. In this configurations the plane could still be used as a transport. You could even put this mechanized pallet munition dispensing system into the freight hold, magnumcromagnon was talking about. In this instance target data could come from drones so the crew could adapt the bombing mission while circling the area.
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Nov 24, 2018 6:21 pm

    For me, the type of work explained by magnumcromagnon, maybe more a task for the Syrian Armed Forces than for the Russian Armed Forces.

    In a case like this, always is good to use old aircrafts, the old aircrafts available at the time of the war.

    My option (in addition to the help with L-39) would be the use of the last units of the Be-12 variants until the total exhaustion of the Be-6/12. Minimal unofficial modifications done after to donate them to Syria, would be enough.
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    Post  Hole on Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:29 pm

    We are not talking about an old plane for the syrian air force. We are talking about a modern (relatively) cheap plane to fill the niche of a bomber for low-intensity conflicts.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:52 pm

    AC-130 is dreadfully vulnerable to any sort of air defence... for the USAF that is generally MANPADS, but for the Russians their opponents have had orders of magnitude better air defence systems to worry about... like BUK in Georgia and the Ukraine...

    Russia does not need gunship transport planes... using transports as dumb bombers perhaps for satellite guided bombs would probably be the cheapest option... fly at 10,000m and roll sat guided bombs out the rear...
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    Post  Hole on Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:29 pm

    A conveyor belt was tested long time ago with the An-12. With dumb bombs.
    Doesn´t a SatNav guided bomb need a connection to the plane bevor it is dropped?
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:44 am

    An onboard WiFi network should allow the bombs to be given the coordinates of the target before release.

    In fact the structure used in Il-76 aircraft for transporting troops looks like a stand at a stadium but square rather than angled for viewing... something like that could be used to hold an enormous number of bombs... big and small in an arrangement so they could each be stored in each side and then moved to the centre conveyer belt to take it to the extreme rear and out the back of the aircraft.

    The main doors could be opened in flight and a conveyer system extended out so it clears the aircraft structure for a clean consistent release.

    In such a case simple cheap dumb bombs could be used from set altitudes to engage all sorts of targets...

    The new Il-476 could carry 50 tons of bombs, which is better than a Blackjack...

    It could drop a lot of very heavy bombs, or it could carry an enormous number of cheap simple medium to light bombs and just hang around all day.

    In fact a big plane like that, you could have an extra crew compartment/pod, and have a dozen wing mounted SAPSAN type pods.

    With coded laser beams each pod could control a laser target marker, with an individual crewman aiming that laser or searching for more targets.

    Laser guided bombs are not that expensive, and with newer CCD seekers they could be even cheaper.

    Could even release the bombs through a hole in the aircrafts cargo bay floor near the front...
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:22 am

    Hole wrote:We are not talking about an old plane for the syrian air force. We are talking about a modern (relatively) cheap plane to fill the niche of a bomber for low-intensity conflicts.

    There is not a niche really. How many of them would be necessary.

    5?

    It is a task that implies high vulnerability and Russia can always leave to the local Air Force, providing them the cheapest alternative if necessary.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:19 am

    You could use any Il-276 build for that role.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:11 am

    They have racks for installing inside standard cargo planes for when large numbers of troops are to be carried... they also have special equipment that allows a standard cargo plane to hold water for water bomber roles and to hold fuel so it can act as an inflight refuelling tanker.

    They could modularise a system that holds and ejects bombs, so that any transport aircraft that can open its rear doors in flight can be a troop transport, an inflight refuelling aircraft, a water bomber, or a bomber within a few hours...

    Makes all of your transports more useful.

    Transport planes are like churches.... some times you need them and some times you don't.

    When you build a church you can design it to take all the people who come for Christmas mass or Easter celebrations... which might be hundreds, or you might build it for regular Sunday service where you might get a dozen people or less each week.

    If you build for hundreds then most of the time it will be mostly empty and expensive to heat.

    If you build it for a dozen then it will be too small for weddings and funerals and christmas and easter.

    The secret is to make a compromise somewhere in the middle.

    For transport planes you get the same problem... for a big exercise you need as many transports as you can get, but when you are not performing big exercises then you don't need nearly as many. By making them modular and flexible you can buy a few extra aircraft and use them for different things... when there is no exercise dropping loads or transporting forces, they can be used as inflight refuelling tankers, or to fight fires around the place, or to move troops.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:42 am

    A few pylons under the wings for targeting, recon and ECM pods. Plus refuelling pods. Any transport aircraft bringing supplies to Syria could be used for recon and protect itself with ECM pods.
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    Post  flamming_python on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:38 am

    I wonder who the morons were who decided to cut the funding for this program by x10 times

    "Oh yeah, we have a bunch of +50-year old An-12s as the only aircraft in our fleet for the 15-20t payload role, they haven't been produced in 45 years and it's a real pain getting spare parts for them and keeping them flying, we estimate we can only keep them going for another 5 years. And when they're gone, we'll have to use our Il-76s for these tasks at much lesser efficiency, but oh no no no no - it's totally not a major priority to replace them, no sir"

    It's times like this I wish the NKVD was still around.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:45 pm

    Logistics has traditionally been a weak point for military forces that don't fight much... I suspect Russia is learning a lesson with Syria, but it was pretty obvious to those aware of the issue of the Ukraine jumping ship...
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:30 am

    News about the Il-276:

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5965480

    Protection preliminary design medium transport aircraft Il-276 will take place in spring 2019
    Completion of the basic mass design works, production preparation and the first flight of the Il-276 scheduled for 2023
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:03 pm


    Good news thumbsup

    Important project.

    Sponsored content

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