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    Il-276 (SVTS) Medium Transport

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:36 pm

    The FWJ-6C turboprops used on the Y-9 could be exchanged for Russian engines China imports or bought, besides licence produced.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-9#Specifications_(Y-9)

    It won't take much $ to set up their production at the same plants that produced the AI-20s.
    OTH, I'm not sure those big PD-14Ms will be well suited for the IL-276.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-276#Specifications

    They'll add a lot of extra weight & consume more fuel than props. Thus, I doubt they'll avoid the IL-112 problems with it.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:29 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The FWJ-6C turboprops used on the Y-9 could be exchanged for Russian engines China imports or bought, besides licence produced.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-9#Specifications_(Y-9)

    It won't take much $ to set up their production at the same plants that produced the AI-20s.
    OTH, I'm not sure those big PD-14Ms will be well suited for the IL-276.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-276#Specifications

    They'll add a lot of extra weight & consume more fuel than props. Thus, I doubt they'll avoid the IL-112 problems with it.
    the same plant that more than 50 years ago produced Ai20'is quite busy with PS-90, PD-14 and derivatives....

    Anyway if later they want a Il-276 version with twin turboprop instead of.a.turbofan, there is already a turboshaft (helicopter engine) in development as derivative of PD-14.

    From turboshaft to turboprop the step is really small
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    Post  flamming_python on Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:13 am

    Wait.. you're not joking are you?

    You honestly want Russia to procure a decades-old Chinese design that's a copy of an even older Soviet design; instead of putting that money into the Il-276 instead?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:21 am

    It's probably too late for that, but they may regret not producing a Y-9 counterpart. Now they have no competing Tu-330, no An-12 "deep modernization" (which is inferior C-130), & no An-70 (which is superior to A-400M). That, as mentioned, leaves them to rely on IL-76s, IL-276s & IL-112s for tactical airlift. In aviation, putting too many eggs in 1 basket is not a good thing.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:45 am

    The decision has already been made... the Il-276 will replace the An-12 in Russian military service.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:54 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:It's probably too late for that, but they may regret not producing a Y-9 counterpart. Now they have no competing Tu-330, no An-12 "deep modernization" (which is inferior C-130), & no An-70 (which is superior to A-400M). That, as mentioned, leaves them to rely on IL-76s, IL-276s & IL-112s for tactical airlift. In aviation, putting too many eggs in 1 basket is not a good thing.
    What do you mean by too many eggs in 1 basket?

    Il 276 and il 112V are quite different aircrafts.
    The only things in common is that they are both ilyushin design and that they can be completed without foreign components.

    Tu330 was instead planned to have a max takeoff weight, fuel reserves and payload much higher than the An12.

    Tu330 was an interesting project, but killed by the pressure of using an aircraft build in conjunction with the ukrainians, that, albeit with different configuration (twin turbofan instead of 4 x propfan), initially should have had a similar payload.

    Concerning the Il-276, I believe that many critics are because of the supposed reduced range and payload compared to the larger and heavier (almost 1/2 heavier) Tu330. The original MTA (il-214) should have been however a replacement for the smaller an-32 in the indian fleet, and the design payload was probably a compromise between Russian an indian needs (I believe I read somewhere about a design payload.of.12 or 15 tons and 20 tons.with overload). I imagine that now that India is out from influencing the design (but could come back later as a customer for the final product) Russia can optimise the design to its own needs and we will later see better payload/ range values for the il-276 (also because the thrust and SFC of the chosen engines would allow better
    payload/range values than those seen online until now).

    Tupulev is not fully out, however, because Russia already.declared the interest in producing several special variants of the Tu-204/214 (e.g EAW, possibly refuelling tanker, and maybe a marine patrol aircraft (MPA) similar to the american p8, that could be a bigger brother than the pil-114 based proposed MPA (the latter role could however be taken also by a revived Beriev Be-42/A-40.)
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:21 am

    Il 276 and il 112V are quite different aircrafts.
    They have similar roles & can substitute each other, esp. if they get derivatives for different payload tonnage.
    Tupulev is not fully out, however, because Russia already.declared the interest in producing several special variants of the Tu-204/214 (e.g EAW, possibly refuelling tanker, and maybe a marine patrol aircraft (MPA)..

    The Tu-330 may be revived if the IL-276 project fails to deliver or the VTA asks for it. W/o the T tail it has less weight than it would have with it; based on the twin engine Tu-204, it has more of a head start over the IL-276 that's still only on paper.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:32 am

    They have similar roles & can substitute each other, esp. if they get derivatives for different payload tonnage.

    They have similar roles in the sense that they transport cargo and people, but they are not substitutes for each other.

    The Il-112 is a small car or motorbike, while an Il-276 is a large van.

    If you want to carry one person and their suitcase then a small car is fine but if you want to move a desk and a bed and some boxes then you need the van...

    Over short distances you might be able to use either, but over rather bigger distances you need to pick the right vehicle for the job.

    Moving stuff across town it might be OK to make 3-4 trips with the car to shift stuff, but moving much greater distances like 500km or more then you need a bigger vehicle so you only need to make one trip.

    The Tu-330 may be revived if the IL-276 project fails to deliver or the VTA asks for it.

    Why do you expect it to fail?

    Why do you think if the Il-276 fails that the Tu-330 wont fail too?

    W/o the T tail it has less weight than it would have with it; based on the twin engine Tu-204, it has more of a head start over the IL-276 that's still only on paper.

    High wings and T tails remove the risk of door jumping paratroopers from hitting the horizontal tail surface when jumping out the front doors and reduce turbulance for things parachuted out the rear of the aircraft.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:42 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:...Now they have no competing Tu-330, no An-12 "deep modernization" (which is inferior C-130), & no An-70 (which is superior to A-400M)...

    Competing Tu-330? What would it be competing against? Different product from the very same company?

    An-70 is nowhere near any transport that works, they never got engines to operate up to specs



    Tsavo Lion wrote:...That, as mentioned, leaves them to rely on IL-76s, IL-276s & IL-112s for tactical airlift. In aviation, putting too many eggs in 1 basket is not a good thing.


    Relying on 76/276/112 has been the plan from the get go, one hobbled by constant insistence on propping up corpse of Antonov company, thankfully they are past that now


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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:31 pm

    Indeed.... even if Russia and the Ukraine were best buddies and Antonov was in good shape, the replacement for the An-12 would be the MTA or Il-276, though the Il-112 would probably not exist as they likely would have gone with the An-140 or something similar, and the VDV would have the An-70 instead of the Il-476.

    The fact is that Russia and the Ukraine are not buddies and Antonov is in no condition to support its old aircraft let alone produce new ones, so what is Antonovs loss is the Il-112s and Il-114s gain.

    For the VDV, the best potential option would be a propfan version of the Il-476 could allow lower flight speeds but still have large payloads and decent flight ranges.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:Indeed.... even if Russia and the Ukraine were best buddies and Antonov was in good shape, the replacement for the An-12 would be the MTA or Il-276, though the Il-112 would probably not exist as they likely would have gone with the An-140 or something similar, and the VDV would have the An-70 instead of the Il-476.

    The fact is that Russia and the Ukraine are not buddies and Antonov is in no condition to support its old aircraft let alone produce new ones, so what is Antonovs loss is the Il-112s and Il-114s gain.

    For the VDV, the best potential option would be a propfan version of the Il-476 could allow lower flight speeds but still have large payloads and decent flight ranges.

    Yeah, and the same variant could even be proposed for the Il-276.

    (Antonov was earlier trying to develop a lighter twin engine version of the An-70 with 20 to 30 tons of payload to replace the An-12, as the An-70 grew so big to be an alternative for the Il-76).


    Anyway, as said before several component of the D-27 propfan engine were manufactured in Russia (including the aerosila manufactured fan).

    They just miss a dedicated special gearbox to move the two stage contrarotating fan, but they could probably copy
    And improve the d27 gearbox design.

    Afterall, before ruining their relation with Russia, ivchenko progress and motor sich were planning a derivative turboshaft of the d-27 to re-engine the Mil Mi-26 helicopter.

    Ironically, Russia can now do exactly the opposite with their PD-12V, and without any help from banderastan.


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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:26 pm

    The problem for us as armchair experts is that we don't have access to their information about what is used now and how it is used, and how that might change in the near future and what else might be useful.

    Previously a 20 ton capacity aircraft was not generally used to move armour, because it is simply not very efficient... a BTR like a BTR-80 was about 14-16 tons so a ten ton capacity aircraft was not good enough and a 20 ton capacity aircraft could only carry one plus crew and some spare ammo or supplies... but then armour was not normally moved by air anyway except by Il-76 (paradrop) and An-22 and An-124 by the VDV.

    At best you would send a force by Il-76 to a location 50-100km away from an enemy held airport... their motorised nature means they could mount up and attack the enemy airfield with little warning... the air defence at the air field might be reasonable but its ground defences will be ordinary this far behind enemy lines so when they take the airfield they can then fly in ground forces in numbers using An-22 and An-124... ready for any counter attack or whatever...

    Having 30 ton capacity aircraft would be of little value because the Kurganets and Boomerang based vehicles will be in the 25-35 ton capacity range anyway.

    Even if it just moves food and ammo then the Il-276 will be fine.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:They have similar roles in the sense that they transport cargo and people, but they are not substitutes for each other. ..Over short distances you might be able to use either, but over rather bigger distances you need to pick the right vehicle for the job.
    In certain circumstances planes not ideally suited may be pressed to service. The US uses its C-130s within Iraq & Afghanistan (the Afghan AF too has them), but the C-27Js were withdrawn; C-17 & C-5s were used on short flights to/from Afghanistan to move armor,etc. to be shipped in/out by sea:
    https://archive.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=26806

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/07/01/not-herculean-anatomy-c130-breakdown-iraq.html

    https://www.amc.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/785812/c-130s-increase-afghanistans-mobility-capability/

    https://www.stripes.com/c130s-shuttle-around-afghanistan-ferrying-personnel-and-supplies-1.467876

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alenia_C-27J_Spartan#Operational_history

    https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/09/24/air-force-shortens-cargo-routes-from-afghanistan.html

    https://www.mcchord.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/247921/c-5m-super-galaxy-flexes-muscles-supporting-afghanistan-surge/
     
    Why do you expect it to fail?[/quote] To me, its 50-50.
    Why do you think if the Il-276 fails that the Tu-330 wont fail too?
    It may, but with 2 projects, chances of success of at least 1 r higher. Following ur logic with the IL-476 & Il-276 pair, if the Tu-204s r already flying, the Tu-330 based on them would also succeed.
    High wings and T tails remove the risk of door jumping paratroopers from hitting the horizontal tail surface when jumping out the front doors and reduce turbulance for things parachuted out the rear of the aircraft.
    I doubt the would use them to drop paratroopers, etc., except in emergencies, esp. not from side doors- to be jet ingested/blasted & possibly die.
    An-70 is nowhere near any transport that works, they never got engines to operate up to specs
    Not true:
    https://www.defenceweb.co.za/joint/logistics/french-air-force-charters-an-70-to-transport-equipment-from-africa-to-france/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_D-27#Design_and_development

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94-27

    http://www.motorsich.com/eng/products/aircraft/tv/d-27/

    Pl. post ur sources to the contrary.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:45 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    An-70 is nowhere near any transport that works, they never got engines to operate up to specs
    Not true:
    https://www.defenceweb.co.za/joint/logistics/french-air-force-charters-an-70-to-transport-equipment-from-africa-to-france/
    ....


    Really?

    Well if this masterpiece is so ready why didn't the French order some? Or the Ukrainians for that matter?

    Surely such technological wonder would have no problems finding eager customers Twisted Evil


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:55 pm

    They have the A-400M & don't want extra unemployed yellow vests; UkAF doesn't need nor can afford more. There's no big demand for them- only Russia was going to order more than a few.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:16 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They have the A-400M & don't want extra unemployed yellow vests; UkAF doesn't need nor can afford more. There's no big demand for them- only Russia was going to order more than a few.


    RIP then because Russia is going for something from this century

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:14 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They have the A-400M & don't want extra unemployed yellow vests; UkAF doesn't need nor can afford more. There's no big demand for them- only Russia was going to order more than a few.
    Tsavo, one of the comments from your own link mention the possibility that France own cargo planes were busy elsewhere, and ukraine.volunteered.in offering the services of their pre-production An-70-prototype for no charge.



    From some comments I read on a French specialised website similar to this one, it seems that Antonov actually offered the delivery service to the French Army, for no charge. They meant to use the opportunity to advertise their capabilities in operation for a major military force. I am not entirely sure, but it sounds like a very probable development, as it would have been a win-win situation for everyone.



    Anyway, this was back in 2015. About 50% of the An-70 were manufactured in Russia. Antonov is trying since maidan to propose a new version with western components, but they find no customer and noone to finance the development work.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:22 am

    I forgot about Turkey & China/Pakistan:
    https://quwa.org/2018/05/22/turkey-and-ukraine-proceed-with-an-188-transport-aircraft-program-2/

    https://www.upi.com/China-wants-to-buy-Ukraines-An-70-military-air-transport/50911228237053/

    To save $, they recently cancelled the Y-30 that was supposed to fly next year in favor of An-70 variant: https://aviationweek.com/defense/avic-proposes-c-130-size-y-30-airlifter

    https://quwa.org/2018/12/09/pakistan-and-ukraine-to-explore-opportunities-for-defence-collaboration/

    https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairmo/articles/20180630.aspx

    https://newsspaceflight.com/who-are-the-leading-manufacturers-of-military-transport-aircraft-market-2019-with-latest-development-business-plans-and-upcoming-technologies-forecast-to-2024/

    The IL-276 is a good idea; time will tell if it materializes as it is being envisioned.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:45 am

    In certain circumstances planes not ideally suited may be pressed to service.

    Very true, but they know the An-12s are nearing their expected ends and are developing a replacement for that... the replacement being the Il-276.

    If the Il-276 fails for whatever reason they are actually more likely to just use the older model Il-76s they still have in service as a stopgap until an alternative is ready than order some planes from china or the ukraine.

    It wont be ideal, and might be rather inefficient but not as expensive as having to buy foreign aircraft that are already relatively obsolete.

    The US uses its C-130s within Iraq & Afghanistan (the Afghan AF too has them), but the C-27Js were withdrawn; C-17 & C-5s were used on short flights to/from Afghanistan to move armor,etc. to be shipped in/out by sea:

    But the latest model C-130 are actually rather expensive... why don't you suggest that the US military buy these Chinese aircraft too?

    To me, its 50-50.

    Why?

    The problem with the Il-112 was suitable engines.... the Il-276 will use two of the engines the Il-476 will be using.

    The other problem with the Il-112 was an error in converting paper plans into digital plans... the digital plans for the Il-476 can be used scaled down to create digital plans for the Il-276.

    The Il-112 was done in a relative hurry because options with An-140 and An-148 became no longer an option, there is no such hurry with the Il-276.

    Following ur logic with the IL-476 & Il-276 pair, if the Tu-204s r already flying, the Tu-330 based on them would also succeed.

    Following your logic if Ilyusion are shit at making transport planes, then what chance does Tupolev have of making a decent transport plane... Ilyusion makes transports, Tupolev makes bombers...

    I doubt the would use them to drop paratroopers, etc., except in emergencies, esp. not from side doors- to be jet ingested/blasted & possibly die.

    Il-276 (SVTS) Medium Transport - Page 6 Cs-zbl10

    Side doors for paratroopers and main rear door for cargo and vehicles, but the main user of parachutes is the VDV and they use the side doors on Il-76 transports for paratroopers too.

    The IL-276 is a good idea; time will tell if it materializes as it is being envisioned.

    With India no longer being part of its development the development problems no longer exist and Russia can make the plane they want without needing to worry about Indian requirements.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:29 am

    But the latest model C-130 are actually rather expensive... why don't you suggest that the US military buy these Chinese aircraft too?
    Because I'm not so naive to suggest that. With all those C-130Js they export & service while retiring/selling the older C-130s, it's worth it; corporate welfare will keep churning them- they wouldn't by A-330 tankers, much less the Chinese Y-9s, esp. during the ongoing trade war. The USA isn't Pakistan nor Kazakhstan.
    what chance does Tupolev have of making a decent transport plane... Ilyusion makes transports, Tupolev makes bombers...
    Some Tupolev bombers were converted to carry cargo. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_TB-3
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-75

    Tu-104A-TS – Five Tu-104A's converted to freighter/medevac aircraft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-104#Variants

    The Tu-154S is an all-cargo or freighter version of the Tu-154B, using a strengthened floor, and adding a forward cargo door on the port side of the fuselage. The aircraft could carry nine Soviet PAV-3 pallets. Maximum payload – 20,000 kg (44,092 lb).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-154#Variants

    Some Tu-204s do it also: https://www.aviastar-sp.ru/en/products_and_services/aircraft/tupolev_204s/

    https://aircargoworld.com/allposts/tag/tu-204/

    ..the main user of parachutes is the VDV and they use the side doors on Il-76 transports for paratroopers too.
    Being smaller, the IL-276 engines will be closer to the fuselage, endangering any1 jumping from the side doors. Also, will it be able to slow down enough to do it safely & efficiently?
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:38 am

    The USA isn't Pakistan nor Kazakhstan.

    But Russia is?

    Putin has made a commitment to replace soviet equipment with new Russian stuff... how does reviving a cold war plane like the An-12 fit in to that?

    And before you mention the An-2, sometimes the only useful replacement for something is an upgraded same thing.

    The design of the paperclip has not changed much at all since its invention either...

    Some Tupolev bombers were converted to carry cargo.

    Converted, yes, but the Tupolev did not design them originally as transport aircraft.

    The Tu-154S is an all-cargo or freighter version of the Tu-154B,

    So a modified civilian airliner...

    Being smaller, the IL-276 engines will be closer to the fuselage, endangering any1 jumping from the side doors. Also, will it be able to slow down enough to do it safely & efficiently?

    Would depend on the design of course... if they wanted to use it for dropping parachuters then it is normal to use every free exit because the faster you get them out the door the closer together they will land...

    The Il-276 will only have one engine under each wing and can be located anywhere on the wing.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:00 am

    But Russia is?
    of course not- she's the "3rd Roman Empire", the successor to the Byzantine & Mongol Empires that absorbed the useful arts & crafts from others.
    Even the US gov & civ. companies operate some foreign made aircraft- like the Dassault Falcon 30, Aerospatiale Dauphin 2, C-27Js, IL-76/78,  Agusta MH-68, & CASA HC-144A Ocean Sentry:
    https://www.quora.com/Does-or-has-the-US-military-operated-foreign-aircraft

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76#Operators

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_United_States_Coast_Guard#Aircraft

    Putin has made a commitment to replace soviet equipment with new Russian stuff... how does reviving a cold war plane like the An-12 fit in to that?
    From the practical standpoint, a cat's color doesn't matter as long as it caches mice. IL-38/76/78/96s, Tu-22M/160s, MiG-29s, Su-27s, & C-130s r also Cold War era planes, yet they r all being "deeply modernized" & produced.
    Converted, yes, but the Tupolev did not design them originally as transport aircraft.
    True, but they have the expertise in producing & converting large planes. Designers & engineers from other relevant bureaus can be hired if need be.
    Boeing too converted bombers & produced freighters based on airliners that the US gov./military & civ. operators used for decades:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2019/02/16/5-things-you-likely-never-knew-about-boeings-747/#4dcfe8232422

    If they were asked to design a cargo plane, they would. In fact, they lost to the LM C-5, & that competing plane became the B-747:
    http://www.modernairliners.com/boeing-747-jumbo/boeing-747-jumbo-history/

    But that doesn't mean that the Tu-330 or its successor has no future.

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