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    Il-276 (SVTS) Medium Transport

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:01 am

    If they actually wanted a 30 ton payload capacity transport that would be the spec requirement for the Il-276... the fact that it isn't means it is clearly not important to them.
    It could be useful as this would allow additional cargo weight &/ fuel tanks for increased range/endurance for EW/SAR/tanker variants.
    So Russia at the moment has no domestic propulsion for a An-12/Y-8/Y-9 clone.
    They could buy them from China until a substitute is ready. If the plane is a temporary "stop gap", its engines can be so too. Russia-China relations is a 2 way street.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:40 am

    It could be useful as this would allow additional cargo weight &/ fuel tanks for increased range/endurance for EW/SAR/tanker variants.

    They seem very specific in wanting a 20 ton payload aircraft... the original Il-76 had a 40 payload capacity, but the Il-476 can carry reportedly up to 62 tons, though that is normally rounded to 60 tons.

    AFAIK there are no plans for EW or SAR or tanker models for the Il-276, it is a middle weight aircraft which means heavier and smaller aircraft would be more valuable in the sense that a heavier aircraft could carry a better payload or more fuel, while a lighter aircraft has more benefits from being lighter and therefore rather cheaper...

    They could buy them from China until a substitute is ready. If the plane is a temporary "stop gap", its engines can be so too. Russia-China relations is a 2 way street.

    Stopgap aircraft are dead end aircraft that will cost rather more in the long run because their small production run will makes parts and servicing more expensive.

    What will actually happen is that the Il-276 will be ready when it is ready and as An-12s retire as they get worn out they will use the old Il-76s instead until the new planes are ready.

    Besides, with the IL-112 in mind, there is no guarantee it will come out according to specs, on time, & sell well abroad, with all those other competing current/future models from the Airbus, US, Ukraine, China & Brazil.

    So you think Russia should buy a chinese transport plane because it has better chances of selling well internationally? What difference does that make for Russia?

    Russia cares about replacing An-26 and An-12 aircraft in its own inventory. Such aircraft have also been sold rather widely internationally so there is a rather large market because most of those foreign aircraft are also nearing the end of their economic lives too and need replacement.

    Most have been sold to former communist block allies or places where more rugged simple designs work best, but they don't have enormous pockets to begin with so it wont be a lucrative market anyway.

    Russian military orders will subsidise the design and serial production of the types... if other customers order some then they can save some money. Countries in eastern europe will be looking to western types no matter what, so there is little chance there, but with sanctions too much red tape anyway.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:14 am

    Stopgap aircraft are dead end aircraft..
    The "stop gap plane" could turn into a long term like the An-12 is, & with many variants.
    So you think Russia should buy a chinese transport plane because it has better chances of selling well internationally? What difference does that make for Russia?
    As an added bonus, it wouldn't harm; the main thing is maintaining a well balanced aircraft inventory. Recently Kazakhstan bought Y-8- if Russia had a comparable plane, it could be a different story:
    China has handed over the Y-8 mid-size military transport aircraft to Kazakhstan, an aircraft considered as competitor to the US-made C-130. ..The four-engine turboprop aircraft is based on the Russian Antonov An-12. It can be used for air delivery, transportation, emergency rescue and marine operation. Fu said that the successful export to Kazakhstan increases the potential to enter the Middle East and African countries.
    The Y-8 transport aircraft has already been exported to Pakistan, Myanmar and Venezuela.

    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/23417/China_Delivers_Y_8_Military_Transport_Aircraft_to_Kazakhstan
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:54 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Stopgap aircraft are dead end aircraft..
    The "stop gap plane" could turn into a long term like the An-12 is, & with many variants.
    So you think Russia should buy a chinese transport plane because it has better chances of selling well internationally? What difference does that make for Russia?
    As an added bonus, it wouldn't harm; the main thing is maintaining a well balanced aircraft inventory. Recently Kazakhstan bought Y-8- if Russia had a comparable plane, it could be a different story:
    China has handed over the Y-8 mid-size military transport aircraft to Kazakhstan, an aircraft considered as competitor to the US-made C-130. ..The four-engine turboprop aircraft is based on the Russian Antonov An-12. It can be used for air delivery, transportation, emergency rescue and marine operation. Fu said that the successful export to Kazakhstan increases the potential to enter the Middle East and African countries.
    The Y-8 transport aircraft has already been exported to Pakistan, Myanmar and Venezuela.

    https://www.defenseworld.net/news/23417/China_Delivers_Y_8_Military_Transport_Aircraft_to_Kazakhstan

    I still do not understand your current obsession for the Y-8. Russia has finally decided.for a.replacement for the An-12 with an aircraft that will also share several components (and loading infrastructure) with the il-476.


    I could have understood if you wanted instead to copy an aircraft between the il-112v (5/6tons) and the il- 276/an-12-(20+ tons), maybe doing what ukraine was trying to doing to the an 132 (10/12tons payload), that currently is not in the plans for new developments in the russian aeronautical industry.


    Furthermore russian aircraft engineers need also work challenge and experience on their own projects.

    The problems of il-112v were also due to interromping the projects many times to please foreign producers and the lack of.new projects (and money) caused also a deficit in term of experienced engineers in the ilyushin bureau.

    The only reason they had until now no new aircraft to replace the an-12 is.that in Soviet times such aircrafts were designed in kiev, and that until 10 years ago the aeronautical industry in russia was in tatters (save for the design and production of fighter aircrafts).  

    It's possible that if Russia had already the il-276 in production a few years ago Kazakhstan would have bought it instead of the y8. Anyway a couple of aircrafts sold to a friendly but poor country do not change much.
    We are not talking about an order for 50 aircrafts, and pakistan a few years ago was not even considering about buying Russian aircrafts.

    Question for you: why do you believe that with the y-8 Russia will have a balanced aircraft inventory, but the same is not true for the il-276?
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:50 pm


    Y-8 is An-12.

    An-12 is done.

    Time to move on.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Y-8 is An-12.

    An-12 is done.

    Time to move on.

    And Il-276 is the replacement for An-12 russia
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 22, 2019 6:14 pm

    Y-8 is An-12. An-12 is done.
    Not exactly, it's a modified Chinese (& still being produced) variant of An-12. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-8
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=71&v=_0K6NKx7xrQ

    The Y-9 is a follow on & very much alive; the USSR failed to develop & build its own & now Russia doesn't have a direct & less costly An-12 replacement. https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3725955

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTx3kHnH4XmJYVoRIBcPJ6NSY4qUP5Q2-SWeJcIRi2J-W2YZYNu

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQbWow9kBv9cTUd1o3q5wl6EXTfTGYwXrjuZConUO_c3g7mR7Fa
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:37 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Y-8 is An-12. An-12 is done.
    Not exactly, it's a modified Chinese (& still being produced) variant of An-12. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaanxi_Y-8
    .............


    An-12 is done.

    Whatever Chinese are doing is Chinese business.


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:10 pm

    If it's not revived, they'll live to regret it. Even the US didn't give up on the C-130 & now using & selling 100s of C-130Js around the world.
    The Hercules has outlived several planned successor designs, most notably the Advanced Medium STOL Transport contestants. As of February 2018, 400 C-130J aircraft have been delivered to 17 nations.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_C-130J_Super_Hercules

    They don't bother with reviving YC-14 or making a twin engine YC-15/C-17 derivative. Note: they r not paper planes!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_YC-14#Specifications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_YC-15#Specifications

    https://www.stripes.com/news/transport-really-wings-it-1.24196




    So, good luck to the IL-276 makers & the VKS/VTA with it!
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:22 am

    Tsavo you continue to post the same concept and do not even read or reply to the facts and questions that other users are posting.

    Did you see my previous 2 posts (on this and on the  previous page) on this topic?

    As far as the yc14 and yc15, they were quite bigger aircrafts and with a much bigger payload than the c130.
    It is like if Russia would replace the An-12 with a copy of an Airbus A-400M.

    It is possible that the american aircraft manufacturers proposed aircrafts with totally different specifications than what the USAF wanted. In this case it would be normal that the main customer (USAF) would then say that they would just want an improved C130.

    The Il-276 will be instead designed exactly on the specs (payload, range and cargo hold size) that Russia want.
    There may be some delays, but, unless another Gorbachev replaces Putin in 2024 and Russia collapses, this airplane will be produced in sufficient number.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 1:22 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:If it's not revived, they'll live to regret it. Even the US didn't give up on the C-130...

    Are you actually trying to compare masterpiece way ahead of it's time like C-130 with generic two-bit byproduct like An-12?

    On top of that C-130 was undergoing constant modifications and upgrades throughout it's existence while nobody touched An-12 since they were slapped together for the first time (in keeping with true Soviet tradition of technological obsolescence)

    And another thing: country that designed C-130 still exists while country that designed An-12 disappeared three decades ago alongside it's military and defense doctrine.


    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:11 am

    I do read all posts.
    It is possible that the american aircraft manufacturers proposed aircrafts with totally different specifications than what the USAF wanted.
    If the AF wanted 20T payload, the plane makers wouldn't risk spending extra time & $ on more capable aircraft which may never go in production. OTH, the fact that they exceeded desired specs isn't the reason they got cancelled.
    Are you actually trying to compare masterpiece way ahead of it's time like C-130 with generic two-bit byproduct like An-12?
    On top of that C-130 was undergoing constant modifications and upgrades throughout it's existence nobody touched An-12 since they were slapped together for the first time
    Not true:
    The An-12 was in many ways comparable to the contemporary US Lockheed C-130 cargolifter, though the An-12 would not remain in production for nearly as long, nor be built in the same numbers. The C-130 was a larger aircraft with greater load volume, but the two machines had comparable load and range. The An-12 was a very capable machine and, after initial bugs were worked out, a good example of rugged and reliable Soviet design.
    http://www.airvectors.net/avan12.html#m3

    An-12BK: An increased 30-tonne (66,140 lb) payload, improved avionics suite, TG-16M APU and the widened cargo door of the An-12BP characterized the An-12BK, which was built exclusively for the VTA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Antonov_An-12_variants

    To me, the IL-276 is the "damage control" project to plug the gap left from the 1990s. Russia isn't Brazil that needs a lot fewer such planes; most of her KC-390s will be build for export. Russia could get 50 Y-9-like planes for the fraction of $ & time spent.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:07 am

    The "stop gap plane" could turn into a long term like the An-12 is, & with many variants.

    Russia would not benefit from having a chinese stopgap plane they continue to have to use.

    Russia wants a new plane design that has commonality to its other operational aircraft... buying this chinese upgrade of the An-12 would be a huge step backwards for many reasons... first it wont have any commonality with any of its current in service aircraft so it will be another engine type it needs to buy for one aircraft type.

    With the Il-276 it will use the same engines as the Il-476 so there will be standard engine use and spare parts commonality... the cockpits will be the same... the dimensions will be slightly smaller in some directions but the Il-276 will be able to carry similar shaped loads as the Il-476s... just 1/3rd lighter and over a shorter distance.

    As an added bonus, it wouldn't harm; the main thing is maintaining a well balanced aircraft inventory. Recently Kazakhstan bought Y-8- if Russia had a comparable plane, it could be a different story:

    Russia already has a comparable plane... the An-12 but it is getting rid of them from service.

    Not exactly, it's a modified Chinese (& still being produced) variant of An-12.

    You need to come up with a good reason why Russia should spend money on tooling up a new factory to build what is essentially an An-12 modified for Chinese production and conditions...

    Why would Russia waste good money making an ancient copy of an even more ancient Soviet aircraft they have in service?

    The Il-476 has a totally upgraded and modernised digital cockpit and presumably also cargo handling equipment too... the scaled down Il-276 will have the same cockpit and similar sophisticated all weather cargo handling equipment too.

    The Y-9 is a follow on & very much alive; the USSR failed to develop & build its own & now Russia doesn't have a direct & less costly An-12 replacement.

    It does, and it is called IL-276.

    If it's not revived, they'll live to regret it. Even the US didn't give up on the C-130 & now using & selling 100s of C-130Js around the world.

    Why?

    Did the USAF regret buying C-17s instead of upgrading C-141s?

    They don't bother with reviving YC-14 or making a twin engine YC-15/C-17 derivative.

    They were test aircraft and were considered failures... and analogues of the An-72 which was successful.


    So, good luck to the IL-276 makers & the VKS/VTA with it!

    You are saying that they should just keep making An-12s?

    The An-12 is a ukrainian owned soviet design... why continue that heritage when it will be alone in service in Russia?

    It makes rather more sense for Russia to expand the Il-76 family to include a model to fill that role.

    They could simply make some new build Il-76s with a 40 ton payload to do the job but it would not be very efficient, so what they are doing is scale back the size and weight and engine power of the Il-76 and make a smaller aircraft that could fill the role better and more efficiently.

    It means rather less risk and you will be using the same engines as the Il-476 so there is more engine commonality and you don't need a new turboprop engine to be developed for the job.

    On top of that C-130 was undergoing constant modifications and upgrades throughout it's existence while nobody touched An-12 since they were slapped together for the first time (in keeping with true Soviet tradition of technological obsolescence)

    The C-130 was a piece of crap... slow, unpressurised, rattling piece of rubbish, but it is too small for serious armour so it is just a junk transport so there is no point in replacing it till you really really have to.

    The An-12 is just as ordinary but it really needs to be replaced in Russian service.

    To me, the IL-276 is the "damage control" project to plug the gap left from the 1990s. Russia isn't Brazil that needs a lot fewer such planes; most of her KC-390s will be build for export. Russia could get 50 Y-9-like planes for the fraction of $ & time spent.

    There is no need to have a unique design for every role, and certainly no reason to keep perpetuating the An-12 design for any longer.

    The Ukraine is an enemy state and Russia can expect no cooperation or support from that direction so now that they need replacements for their Ukrainian owned Soviet designs it makes sense to expand the range of Russian types already in use.

    It is not efficient to use the IL-476 for the roles the An-12 or indeed the An-26 have been used... they are smaller lighter aircraft and do jobs the Il-476 is way to big for.

    Hense it makes sense to make a scaled down Il-476 for the jobs the An-12 did and an even smaller aircraft for the jobs the An-26 did in the form of the Il-112 and Il-114.

    Commonality with the Il-476 would make the Il-276 attractive on the international market for other countries wanting a newer aircraft in that weight payload range... the An-12 was sold fairly widely and they are needing replacement pretty soon.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:40 pm

    Russia would not benefit from having a chinese stopgap plane they continue to have to use. Russia wants a new plane design that has commonality to its other operational aircraft... buying this chinese upgrade of the An-12 would be a huge step backwards for many reasons... first it wont have any commonality with any of its current in service aircraft so it will be another engine type it needs to buy for one aircraft type. ..You need to come up with a good reason why Russia should spend money on tooling up a new factory to build what is essentially an An-12 modified for Chinese production and conditions...
    It doesn't have to be 100% Chinese design; they could base it on An-12 & use Y-9 as a cross reference; it will have commonality with their An-12s that will soldier on for years to come. There r already facilities for An-12 maintenance & overhauls. They can use the same engines as the IL-112 or a new/upgraded type that will need to be built for it anyway.
    Why would Russia waste good money making an ancient copy of an even more ancient Soviet aircraft they have in service?
    The An-2 is even more ancient; the C-130 is likewise- from the 1950s; both r workhorses with deep modernization/upgrade potential, & that's why its being done.
    It does, and it is called IL-276.
    But it won't be less costly: Program cost $600M Unit cost $35–40M
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-276

    An-12  Price: $7.650M http://www.virtairlines.com/db/Antonov%20An-12
    Did the USAF regret buying C-17s instead of upgrading C-141s?
    They didn't regret stretching it & it was heavily used, but as a strategic airlifter it was no longer adequate with its narrow body & thus not worth restarting production. The AF needed STOL C-17s in big #s, but it killed the MD corp.; then gov. subsidized Boeing sold many of them to AF & abroad. Poor analogy!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III#Operators
    They were test aircraft and were considered failures...
    The YC-15 wasn't a failure, becoming a de-facto C-17 prototype.
    You are saying that they should just keep making An-12s?
    The An-12 is a ukrainian owned soviet design... why continue that heritage when it will be alone in service in Russia?
    Not alone, but with the An-2/124s- both r being "deeply" modernized & may/will be produced in RF under different names:
    https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/modernised-an-2-demonstrator-completes-first-flight-413382/
    https://glavred.info/world/10047320-slon-protiv-ruslana-rossiya-sozdaet-analog-ukrainskogo-an-124-smi.html
    ..it makes sense to expand the range of Russian types already in use.
    $ don't smell: why spend more when u can save? Iran still uses & upgrades its F-4s/5s/14s, C-130s, CH-47s & P-3s even though they came "from an enemy state": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_of_the_Iranian_Air_Force#Air_superiority_fighters

    In the long run, developing the IL-276 may benefit Russia but it may take longer & cost a lot more than they expect- it's the economic side effect of events in Ukraine that the West instigated to weaken Russia. Unwillingly, Russia falls into that trap.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:08 pm


    All airplanes called 'Antonov' are permanently finished

    Nobody will be wasting time with those museum pieces



    Tsavo Lion wrote:The An-2 is even more ancient...

    And that's why is gone for good
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:21 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    Russia would not benefit from having a chinese stopgap plane they continue to have to use. Russia wants a new plane design that has commonality to its other operational aircraft... buying this chinese upgrade of the An-12 would be a huge step backwards for many reasons... first it wont have any commonality with any of its current in service aircraft so it will be another engine type it needs to buy for one aircraft type. ..You need to come up with a good reason why Russia should spend money on tooling up a new factory to build what is essentially an An-12 modified for Chinese production and conditions...
    It doesn't have to be 100% Chinese design; they could base it on An-12 & use Y-9 as a cross reference; it will have commonality with their An-12s that will soldier on for years to come. There r already facilities for An-12 maintenance & overhauls. They can use the same engines as the IL-112 or a new/upgraded type that will need to be built for it anyway.
    no they can't, the engines currently available or in development in Russia are really underpowered for this type of aircraft.

    Developing a new engine requires more time (and sometimes costs more money) than developing a new aircraft.

    The engines for the il-276 are already existing and with proved capabilities, and new modern engines (PD-14) for such aircraft will be available before the detailed design of the aircraft is ready.

    Hell, hypothetically a turboprop version of il-276 (with turboprop PD-12) could.be ready before they would finish the design work for new russian engines for a new an-12...


    Even bringing production.in russia of the il76 required a lot of time and money, and all the design data had to.be digitalized (and the tashkent plant.in Uzbekistan did not create any political problem and passed them all the blueprints).

    Russia, however produced internally the engines that were perfect for the il76.

    Engine problems aside, do you really believe.that starting from scratch production of a modernised version of an aircraft for.which they.do not.posses the design would take less time than the il-276?
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:23 pm

    All airplanes called 'Antonov' are permanently finished
    They'll live on under other names.
    And that's why is gone for good
    In ur dreams only. Read the link I posted: it'll be revived & improved.
    no they can't, the engines currently available or in development in Russia are really underpowered for this type of aircraft.
    The An-12s share Soviet/Ukrainian designed engines with the IL-20s; they r produced at PMZ (Perm) & KMPO plants in Russia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivchenko_AI-20
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-18#Variants

    If needed, they could be further upgraded & given more efficient props. Or just the 2 engines originally intended for An-22s/Tu-95s but with smaller diameter props could probably be used, with enough power to haul 25T or even 30T payloads.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-12#Specifications_(NK-12MV)


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:09 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:09 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:In ur dreams only. Read the link I posted: it'll be revived & improved.

    It's neither revived nor improved

    It's template was used to create new composite aircraft and that's it

    They didn't even keep the name
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:33 am

    It's neither revived nor improved It's template was used to create new composite aircraft and that's it
    Then the design is improved, so it'll live on in this new plane.
    The same as C-130/130J, IL-76/476 & the IL-276 we discuss here.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : corr.)
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    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:29 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    It's neither revived nor improved It's template was used to create new composite aircraft and that's it
    Then the design is improved, so it'll live on in the this new plane.
    The same as C-130/130J, IL-76/476 & the IL-276 we discuss here.


    Sure, and Atari design lives on in this new console called PlayStation 4

    Like your Antonov theory this one like totally makes sense
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:25 am

    And like the Neanderthal DNA that lives on in u & every1 of us, unless u/they r 100% Black Africans.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:28 am

    It doesn't have to be 100% Chinese design

    It wouldn't be a Chinese design... those aircraft you are suggesting are basically old Soviet designs with minor changes.

    they could base it on An-12 & use Y-9 as a cross reference; it will have commonality with their An-12s that will soldier on for years to come

    Their An-12s are at the end of their lives... once they are scrapped there will be nothing to soldier on.

    The An-12 was a good aircraft for its time but technology has moved on... new avionics and new systems and new cargo systems and cargo standards.

    They have already upgraded the Il-476 massively and adapted its avionics and cargo handling systems to meet the future needs of the Military... now all they need to do is take off two engines and shorten the body and wings a little bit and they have a replacement for an aircraft they don't have in production on their territory.

    There r already facilities for An-12 maintenance & overhauls.

    Which can be upgraded and retooled to maintain and service a newer aircraft once all the old clangers are gone.

    They can use the same engines as the IL-112 or a new/upgraded type that will need to be built for it anyway.

    But the aircraft they have selected to replace the An-12 is the Il-276 and it would take much longer to test the Il-276 with four turboprop engines than for two engines that are already fitted to its big brother, the ll-476..

    The An-2 is even more ancient; the C-130 is likewise- from the 1950s; both r workhorses with deep modernization/upgrade potential, & that's why its being done.

    The An-2 is a unique case of a design that does a very specific job very very well, so its replacement will be an all composite remake with improved aerodynamics and avionics and new engine and propeller. Hopefully the engine can be replaced with a Russian engine and it will continue to serve for a very long time.

    The An-12 is just a transport plane and needs replacing by a larger aircraft with more internal space, and the Il-276 ticks all the important boxes.

    But it won't be less costly: Program cost $600M Unit cost $35–40M
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-276

    An-12 Price: $7.650M http://www.virtairlines.com/db/Antonov%20An-12

    It would cost way more than 600 million to do a complete redesign and modernisation of the An-12... and it would take three years just to digitise the design properly without modification.

    The unit price of a brand new An-12 with upgrades and of course the cost of developing new engines from scratch would be vastly more than the cost of the Il-276 programme which they can piggy back on the back of the Il-476 programme and even use its engines...

    They didn't regret stretching it & it was heavily used, but as a strategic airlifter it was no longer adequate with its narrow body & thus not worth restarting production. The AF needed STOL C-17s in big #s, but it killed the MD corp.; then gov. subsidized Boeing sold many of them to AF & abroad. Poor analogy!

    You give wiki too much credit... the C-141 was not a good aircraft but the C-17 was a horrendous money trap... it was the beta test to what we now call the F-35.

    Ie build factories all over the US... not in places with skilled labour or where the resources are located, but where there is high unemployment with a senator on important committees that decides who gets money in the military. Hire a bunch of local retards and quadruple the cost of manufacture but they will throw money at the programme because it means jobs in their electorate... the Pentagon realised early on they didn't need to ask for C-17s because they got funding for new planes whether they asked for them or not... and they used the same model with the F-35 and it worked too... it also make the aircraft horrendously expensive too and scattered the makers all over the place too... terrible, but they will call it a success...

    The YC-15 wasn't a failure, becoming a de-facto C-17 prototype.

    See above.

    You could probably get 8-9 Il-476s for the price of one C-17... you could probably get 4-5 Il-106s for the price of one C-17... the C-17 programme is a sterling example of how to waste money that isn't yours...

    Not alone, but with the An-2/124s- both r being "deeply" modernized & may/will be produced in RF under different names:

    You are not understanding... the An-12 is nothing like the An-2 or the An-124... they have nothing in common, so keeping one or other of these aircraft makes no difference as to whether you bother to try to keep the other in service.

    The An-2 is a complete reconstruction of an old effective and efficient layout with modern materials and avionics and systems... it looks the same as an An-2 like a modern 32 core 4 Ghz PC with 16 Gigabytes of RAM memory and a 12 gigabyte graphics card looks like a 286 IBM clone from the early 1990s.

    The An-124 will likely get new engines and continue to operate for a short while but its days are numbered too.

    The An-12 doesn't do anything particularly special or amazing and an Il-276 can easily replace it with the same engines as the Il-476 and the same cargo bay profile so they can carry the same types of cargo pallet... it will just be carrying fewer...

    $ don't smell: why spend more when u can save? Iran still uses & upgrades its F-4s/5s/14s, C-130s, CH-47s & P-3s even though they came "from an enemy state"

    Well how many export contracts has Iran achieved with their F-5 clones or any of those other types they keep flying?

    You say money is a factor... what sort of sales can Russia expect with an ancient Soviet design already produced by China for export?

    Will China appreciate selling the design to Russia and then have the low value of the ruble mean Russian made copies of Chinese copies of An-12s under cut them on the international trade market?

    Russia needs to build aircraft that suit its needs first and copies of copies of ancient cold war aircraft don't make sense unless nothing else can do the job... like the An-2.

    And even then a total upgrade and overhaul in design means it is really nothing like the original in actual fact.

    In the long run, developing the IL-276 may benefit Russia but it may take longer & cost a lot more than they expect- it's the economic side effect of events in Ukraine that the West instigated to weaken Russia. Unwillingly, Russia falls into that trap.

    Any extra money spent by Russia on the Il-276 goes in to Russian pockets... Russia was needing to replace the An-12 over the next decade of so anyway, and they were always intended to design and build that replacement with India... India pulled out because they didn't want a scaled down Il-476, but Russia does so now Russia can get exactly what it needs and wants... it would be rather stupid to now buy Chinese rip offs of An-12s.

    All airplanes called 'Antonov' are permanently finished

    Finished in Russian military service... they will continue to live on around the place for a few years yet... even if only in Chinese knockoffs...

    In ur dreams only. Read the link I posted: it'll be revived & improved.

    Technically the Soviet original is going to be totally replaced by a new, modern, Russian, composite, redesigned and upgraded model.

    The shape is slightly different, better aerodynamics and much reduced weight retaining good strength through new materials and new much more capable avionics...

    The An-12s share Soviet/Ukrainian designed engines with the IL-20s; they r produced at PMZ (Perm) & KMPO plants in Russia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivchenko_AI-20

    Yeah, and are they still in actual production or are they just making spare parts. When the An-12s retire from Russian service there will not be much market for those engines so they will need to look at different engines to make.

    If needed, they could be further upgraded & given more efficient props. Or just the 2 engines originally intended for An-22s/Tu-95s but with smaller diameter props could probably be used, with enough power to haul 25T or even 30T payloads.

    The An-22 is gone from service and plans for the PAK DA to start production in the mid 2020s means the life of the Bear is counting down too.

    And like the Neanderthal DNA that lives on in u & every1 of us, unless u/they r 100% Black Africans.

    We also have plenty of redundant DNA from creatures we evolved from... including aquatic DNA from when we lived in the ocean... doesn't mean I wont drown in the water though...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:45 am

    ..now all they need to do is take off two engines and shorten the body and wings a little bit ..
    Well, they r still designing it as it's not that easy. C-27s & A-330s rn't A-340s & C-130s with 2 less engines/shortened fuselage respectively & A-318/319/320 rn't just shortened A-330s with different engines.
    ..the An-12 is nothing like the An-2 or the An-124... they have nothing in common,..
    but they r all workhorses; the An-12 & Y-8/9 is like a "Swiss Army Knife" for the VKS, PLAAF/NAF & other operators.
    ..the cost of developing new engines from scratch..
    no need for that; current AI-20 could be upgraded.
    ..the C-17 was a horrendous money trap...
    True, but it did the job a lot better than the C-141s it replaced & took on some missions from the aging C-5s.
    what sort of sales can Russia expect with an ancient Soviet design already produced by China for export?
    U wrote: Russia needs to build aircraft that suit its needs first- exactly- not for export per se to finance their production.
    copies of copies of ancient cold war aircraft..
    The Y-9 isn't a copy of Y-8/An-12, but a follow on, just like the C-130J vs C-130. Russia could buy an old retired Y-8 or use her own An-12 & her Intel could get all the blueprints they may be missing to reverse engineer & improve it, surpassing the Y-9. They could even develop a family of cargo planes with 20T, 25-30T & 40-50T payload capacity with many sub-variants, some of which could export well.
    The same would be a lot harder to do with the IL-276.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:03 am

    When was AI-20 last produced?

    Furthemore I believe that it was produced only for a few years in Perm (Russia).

    They can maybe produce some spare parts for maintenance, but that's all.

    Before maidan it was a problem also to get new D-18T engines for the An-124 from motor sich, because production (and the supply chain for it) had already been stopped for a few years. Once you stop production it is very costly to restart it (this is valid also for western companies).

    Furthermore the AI-20 is an obsolete engine (more than 60 years old) and it makes no sense to modernise it because modern turboprops need a very different architecture.

    Russia would benefit from an engine of this class and they will probably develop it, maybe doing an upscaled tv7-117 or a totally new design, but it will take time and now this is not the highest priority (they need first the big and very big engines, and than the smaller engines (800hp and 1500 hp) for.existing projects that mount foreign engines.

    And even if they would go for an upgraded AI20 they would have to spend the same time and money in redesign, development and testing than they would need for a really modern engine.

    And the result would be a not so efficient engine that would find no equivalent civil application and no foreign customer save for desperate countries.


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    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:47 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:When was AI-20 last produced?

    Furthemore I believe that it was produced only for a few years in Perm (Russia).

    They can maybe produce some spare parts for maintenance, but that's all.

    Before maidan it was a problem also to get new D-18T engines for the An-124 from motor sich, because production (and the supply chain for it) had already been stopped for a few years. Once you stop production it is very costly to restart it (this is valid also for western companies).

    Furthermore the AI-20 is an obsolete engine (more than 60 years old) and it makes no sense to modernise it because modern turboprops need a very different architecture.

    Russia would benefit from an engine of this class and they will probably develop it, maybe doing an upscaled tv7-117 or a totally new design, but it will take time and now this is not the highest priority (they need first the big and very big engines, and than the smaller engines (800hp and 1500 hp) for.existing projects that mount foreign engines.

    And even if they would go for an upgraded  AI20 they would have to spend the same time and money in redesign, development and testing than they would need for a really modern engine.

    And the result would be a not so efficient engine that would find no equivalent civil application and no foreign customer save for desperate countries.



    Totally new design?

    No we don't do that here

    Only incremental upgrades of decades old ones

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