Venezuela crisis

Relations between Russia and the US are worse than they were during the cold war and long may it continue.

The worst future Russia could possibly have is to be accepted by the west and welcomed into that incestuous devil worshipping trailer trash clan of inbreds and yahoos.

Russia is doing all the right things and while the US is pushing Russia away from international organisations and the international community that it controls... it is also reducing its control of those organisations and that community and slowly losing any leadership it might have had.

In pushing away Russia it is also pushing away other countries like China and India and all those non aligned countries are taking notice and will soon work out that their could be an alternative to the western led future of humanity where they don't have to agree that a person can be any gender they feel they want to be this week... and if you tear up your citizenship and run away with a terrorist group to murder people and for some reason get disillusioned with them because every order has a structure and so there are people on top who have it easy and people on the bottom who do all the work and get basically screwed by the people above them and also the people you are fighting against when you get caught... that includes democracy and capitalism as well as communism and socialism and the Muslim church and the christian church and everything in between.
The west will take in white helmet terrorists who never lived in the west before, but they wont take back former citizens that now claim to have realised what a mistake ISIS was... but then many don't even admit they were wrong... they just want to come back to the west before the Syrians and the Iranians and the Russians get them...

But that is all cool... the more the west shows its teeth the more alternatives will be created and supported more widely like alternative payments systems and loan systems and trade systems etcetc...

I am really enjoying see America shoot itself in the foot while arguing about the Russians interfering in their elections and spending huge money to try to prove it even though there was never any actual evidence in the first place...

GarryB wrote:Relations between Russia and the US are worse than they were during the cold war and long may it continue.

The worst future Russia could possibly have is to be accepted by the west and welcomed into that incestuous devil worshipping trailer trash clan of inbreds and yahoos.

Russia is doing all the right things and while the US is pushing Russia away from international organisations and the international community that it controls... it is also reducing its control of those organisations and that community and slowly losing any leadership it might have had.

In pushing away Russia it is also pushing away other countries like China and India and all those non aligned countries are taking notice and will soon work out that their could be an alternative to the western led future of humanity where they don't have to agree that a person can be any gender they feel they want to be this week... and if you tear up your citizenship and run away with a terrorist group to murder people and for some reason get disillusioned with them because every order has a structure and so there are people on top who have it easy and people on the bottom who do all the work and get basically screwed by the people above them and also the people you are fighting against when you get caught... that includes democracy and capitalism as well as communism and socialism and the Muslim church and the christian church and everything in between.
The west will take in white helmet terrorists who never lived in the west before, but they wont take back former citizens that now claim to have realised what a mistake ISIS was... but then many don't even admit they were wrong... they just want to come back to the west before the Syrians and the Iranians and the Russians get them...

But that is all cool... the more the west shows its teeth the more alternatives will be created and supported more widely like alternative payments systems and loan systems and trade systems etcetc...

I am really enjoying see America shoot itself in the foot while arguing about the Russians interfering in their elections and spending huge money to try to prove it even though there was never any actual evidence in the first place...

But nobody wants to be like russia, india or china.

Is the west perfect? No, but still bettern than all the shitholes you mentioned.

Aristide wrote:

GarryB wrote:Relations between Russia and the US are worse than they were during the cold war and long may it continue.

The worst future Russia could possibly have is to be accepted by the west and welcomed into that incestuous devil worshipping trailer trash clan of inbreds and yahoos.

Russia is doing all the right things and while the US is pushing Russia away from international organisations and the international community that it controls... it is also reducing its control of those organisations and that community and slowly losing any leadership it might have had.

In pushing away Russia it is also pushing away other countries like China and India and all those non aligned countries are taking notice and will soon work out that their could be an alternative to the western led future of humanity where they don't have to agree that a person can be any gender they feel they want to be this week... and if you tear up your citizenship and run away with a terrorist group to murder people and for some reason get disillusioned with them because every order has a structure and so there are people on top who have it easy and people on the bottom who do all the work and get basically screwed by the people above them and also the people you are fighting against when you get caught... that includes democracy and capitalism as well as communism and socialism and the Muslim church and the christian church and everything in between.
The west will take in white helmet terrorists who never lived in the west before, but they wont take back former citizens that now claim to have realised what a mistake ISIS was... but then many don't even admit they were wrong... they just want to come back to the west before the Syrians and the Iranians and the Russians get them...

But that is all cool... the more the west shows its teeth the more alternatives will be created and supported more widely like alternative payments systems and loan systems and trade systems etcetc...

I am really enjoying see America shoot itself in the foot while arguing about the Russians interfering in their elections and spending huge money to try to prove it even though there was never any actual evidence in the first place...

But nobody wants to be like russia, india or china.

Is the west perfect? No, but still bettern than all the shitholes you mentioned.

Shitholes? Yeah nice to know. Wonder why so many European tourists visit my city.

What is the point of any discussion with this retarded troll? Are people trying to convince it? Why? It is retarded and
thus a write off.

The troll is banned for 3 days, stay on topic which is Venezuela.

Yes back on topic . A reminder that the world should not abandon the people of Venezuela . Under threats from America . Ships should go . Trade must continue . I want to hear news about actual help given to them . The progress they make .

Ps : To the person who continues to make comparisons of our nations to chit holes , I must say that this may be true , but you know what , IT IS OUR CHIT HOLE !

nomadski wrote:Yes  back on topic .  A reminder that  the world should not abandon the people of Venezuela . Under threats from America . Ships should go . Trade must continue .  I want to hear news about actual help given to them . The progress they make .

Ps : To the person who continues to make comparisons of our nations to chit holes , I must say that  this may be true  , but  you know what  ,  IT IS OUR CHIT HOLE !

America is leveraging the perception that it is saving Venezuelans from a horrible government that is oppressing them and denying them economic freedom.
So it is the white knight riding in to save the day. The reality that it is America itself that has been sabotaging Venezuela, stirring up strife and ultimately
meddling overtly to install a bootlick regime. A certain resident clown will claim that it is the Venezuelans themselves that are "incompetent" and to
blame. As if sabotage is not assault and aggression and can be ignored as a nuisance. Venezuela does not have the size like Russia to deploy resources
to counteract Washington's dirty tricks. And people take Russia's spectacular success in fighting off these self-anointed masters of the universe for granted.

Unfortunately, the dirty reality is consigned to the tin foil hat fringe for discussion.

Aristide wrote:Same counts for my trip to Russia in January 2018. St Petersburg looks nice at the tourist spots but outside...dirty, worn down and pretty bad poverty. There is no functional mobile net outside the city. Public service is rotten down.

You hardly have Wlan outside the center.

Not really - compared to Paris our metro is in a far better state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuEDuye-JmE
We don't have any migrant camps in the centre with litter everywhere or constant fights between protestors and police either.

Don't know about WLAN but we have 4G everywhere and very fast internet. In the suburbs you have a lot of Soviet-era grey buildings from the 70s, 60s; they're an eyesore but appartments tend to be pretty inside. And heating/electricity/water everywhere.
Of course going during the winter with melting snow and cars on the roads.. it's going to be dirty.

Don't see how you're judging the poverty situation. The people who are poor are the pensioners. Young families or professionals on the other hand tend to have enough money.

Russia, China or India lack something...a culture people want copy. Who wants to be like Russia or India or China?

Russia is a developed country, that suffered a massive economic and industrial collapse that it's still recovering from. But at its core its still developed. It has the highest proportion of people with degrees in the world. Something like 2nd in terms of women in the workforce. All sorts of industries. Hundreds of research institutions. No contagious diseases amongst the population. People are hygenic. Full sanitation networks, gasification/heating of homes, electricity supplies everywhere, clean water, functional public transport systems.

So don't put Russia in the same boat as developing countries such as India or China.

Nobody. In case of Russia i think the biggest problem is, its lack of style, art and class.

Pretty funny considering that the top Ballerina schools in the world are in St. Petersburg, we also have the 2nd largest gallery, dozens of museums, theatres, academies, etc...
Actually the whole city is an architectual monument.

On the contrary classical culture is being shoved away in Europe and America as something pretentious, associated with posh upper classes and out of date. It's very much a niche interest. People don't go to galleries, theatres, etc...
The rage is all LGBT and ethnic minority culture these days.

In Russia though classic European forms of art are still highly valued among all social strata.

@KVS


Thanks for reply  .  I agree that fighting and winning  the information war , is very important . And perhaps forums such as this , can play a role . In exposing the truth . So that truth does not get confused with lies or propaganda .

Take for example this power cut . There are claims and counter claims . I don't have access to facts on the ground . So I use probability  reasoning . For example how many power outages has there been in venezuela in past ten to twenty years ? Since installations  of new dam and power grid ?

So the probability  is say X occurrences  over one year . So over current year , if more outages happen , then everything else being equal , this indicates an  unusual event .

The yanks attacked Iraq power grid with graphite bombs . Over transmission lines . Causing outages . I said that  mini circuit breakers should be installed over power lines . To trip the system , if shorted out with graphite.

Also I predicted that a computer hack can disable power or transport . I said that secondary manual control systems should be installed . For power and water and traffic control . One advantage of having local internet than world internet . Cyber security .

Civil defence can include , decontamination units , composed of existing fire brigades . That use  gases or air to decontaminate power lines or sub - stations .

Some claim the lack of personnel ( experts leaving the country ) or funding ( a bankrupt state owned industry ) as the cause . Well if true , then the Venezuelans will not be able to restore the grid . But I have a feeling that the grid will be restored . As though by magic !

Where did they get the personnel ? Where did the money come from ? This then , will be proven to be false . Better keep essential services under tight state control . Hybrid war can affect anyone these days !

Nerves Fray, Tempers Flare as Venezuela Blackout Hits 4th Day
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics/nerves-fray-tempers-flare-as-venezuela-blackout-hits-fourth-day-idUKKBN1QR0MM

US Pressuring India to End Venezuelan Oil Purchases
https://thehill.com/policy/international/433409-us-pressuring-india-to-end-venezuelan-oil-purchases

nomadski wrote:@KVS


Thanks for reply  .  I agree that fighting and winning  the information war , is very important . And perhaps forums such as this , can play a role . In exposing the truth . So that truth does not get confused with lies or propaganda .

Take for example this power cut . There are claims and counter claims . I don't have access to facts on the ground . So I use probability  reasoning . For example how many power outages has there been in venezuela in past ten to twenty years ? Since installations  of new dam and power grid ?

So the probability  is say X occurrences  over one year . So over current year , if more outages happen , then everything else being equal , this indicates an  unusual event .

The yanks attacked Iraq power grid with graphite bombs . Over transmission lines . Causing outages . I said that  mini circuit breakers should be installed over power lines . To trip the system , if shorted out with graphite.

Also I predicted that a computer hack can disable power or transport . I said that secondary manual control systems should be installed . For power and water and traffic control . One advantage of having local internet than world internet . Cyber security .

Civil defence can include , decontamination units , composed of existing fire brigades . That use  gases or air to decontaminate power lines or sub - stations .

Some claim the lack of personnel ( experts leaving the country )  or funding ( a bankrupt state owned industry ) as the cause . Well if true , then the Venezuelans  will not be able to restore the grid . But I have a feeling that the grid will be restored . As though by magic !

Where did they  get the personnel ? Where did the money come from ? This then , will be proven to be false . Better keep essential services under tight state control . Hybrid war can affect anyone these days !

It is extremely easy to stage power outages, to disrupt food transport and create chaos of all sorts. Venezuela must go on the information offensive and
immediately identify the problems with the power grid instead of waiting for some BS investigation to conclude in one year's time. Since we are dealing
with sabotage it should be easy to film the damage.

Power plants and transmission lines are not internet devices so they cannot be hacked. This is NATO propaganda for saps designed to feed them fear and
instill hate for the "enemy". Only morons would put any power plant control system under the control of a computer attached to the ethernet. Power plants
require local operators and not lazy "work from home" clowns. So I highly doubt that Venezuela's power problems are due to some hard to report cyber attack.
They are much more physical in nature.

Although I want to be on Maduro's side since the USA is a monster entity bent on world domination, I really think that he is incompetent and has
lost control of the situation. If Chavez was still alive, then all these dirty tricks would be better managed and suppressed. Venezuela cannot have
a bureaucratic leadership like the USSR. It does not have the resources and machinery to fight off the attacks from Uncle Scumbag. Chavez was
the sort of rebel leader that understood this. (I think Castro was the same in the case of Cuba). Maduro is not on the ball and really does not
understand how to counteract Yanqui meddling. He reminds me of Yanukovich and can fall at any moment.

kvs wrote:

nomadski wrote:Yes  back on topic .  A reminder that  the world should not abandon the people of Venezuela . Under threats from America . Ships should go . Trade must continue .  I want to hear news about actual help given to them . The progress they make .

Ps : To the person who continues to make comparisons of our nations to chit holes , I must say that  this may be true  , but  you know what  ,  IT IS OUR CHIT HOLE !

America is leveraging the perception that it is saving Venezuelans from a horrible government that is oppressing them and denying them economic freedom.
So it is the white knight riding in to save the day.   The reality that it is America itself that has been sabotaging Venezuela, stirring up strife and ultimately
meddling overtly to install a bootlick regime.    A certain resident clown will claim that it is the Venezuelans themselves that are "incompetent" and to
blame.   As if sabotage is not assault and aggression and can be ignored as a nuisance.    Venezuela does not have the size like Russia to deploy resources
to counteract Washington's dirty tricks.   And people take Russia's spectacular success in fighting off these self-anointed masters of the universe for granted.

Unfortunately, the dirty reality is consigned to the tin foil hat fringe for discussion.    

Marco Rubio is very symbolic of the attitude of white latin americans regarding the poor of their countries; Castro was justified in what he did back in the 1960s.

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2019/march/09/sen-rubio-makes-fun-of-the-suffering-of-the-venezuelan-people/

@KVS

There was a case of a man with mental  illness  of autism ,  that  hacked and broke into  pentagon or NASA .  And the yanks wanted to extradite  him . I  remember the Stuxnet that hit  Iran , was by internet . So I will not rule out a computer hack yet .

Regarding  taxi drivers , I have personally gotten  some of the best advice from them . Drivers are in general very gregarious , they talk and listen a lot . And have good common sense .

The problems in the world , are common or social . I doubt any other person can singly solve them . It is easy  to advise  and help Venezuelans  . They must not loose hope . They must try again and again .

@Lion

Can you put links in English , if you can  . I do not speak Russian . Or at least explain what a rubber boat  got  to do with Venezuela  ?

Michael Hudson is a brilliant economist and these are two worthwhile reads:


https://michael-hudson.com/2019/02/venezuela-as-the-pivot-for-new-internationalism/

https://michael-hudson.com/2019/02/trumps-brilliant-strategy-to-dismember-u-s-dollar-hegemony/

Venezuela Congress Declares 'State of Alarm' Over Blackout
US Sanctions Russian Bank Over Dealings With V. State Oil Firm
https://www.antiwar.com/

flamming_python wrote:Not really - compared to Paris our metro is in a far better state. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuEDuye-JmE
We don't have any migrant camps in the centre with litter everywhere or constant fights between protestors and police either.

This was bound to happen. Even today, France occupies an area in Africa roughly 2/3 the size of the U.S.

Where else will all these Africans go. Knock down others doors and they will come knocking at your's

The Chinese connection: https://ria.ru/20190313/1551749505.html

https://regnum.ru/news/economy/2589662.html

Off topic posts moved:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7216p400-talking-bollocks-thread-2#250544

Trade should and can be a way of moderating international relations . Providing that it is mutually beneficial to all parties . In order for this to happen , basic conditions must be met by corporations :

( 1 ) The proportion of allocated trade , should reflect the population size of that nation and not it's wealth . This so that populous but poor nations , without a surplus have a share in world trade and become developed .

( 2 ) That , as the Chinese have shown , there is technological transfer .

( 3 ) That financial guarantees are secured against investments , to ensure no damaging unilateral withdrawal from contracts , as the case in Iran , can occur .

( 4 ) Environmental and social damage caused by activities of corporations , should be financially compensated , to the workers and citizens. And host country .

( 5 ) Majority or controlling shares , should be maintained by host nation .

( 6) Host nation has right to reallocate share of trade from a country that breaks these rules .


Under these conditions then , and some others , trade can be seen as beneficial . But a country such as USA that is ideologically anti - socialist , can not act as a reliable trading partner .

So the all thing about gov change fucked up. US failed. Now that they didn't succeed and didn't send army, everyone saw it was a bluff.

Even if it is now clear that maduro has no future, the US puppet is no better for venezuelans who don't want him to be a leader at all. No support, he just come in middle of protests but they don't care about him.

Maduro should be removed by china and russia. He is useless. Nothing like Chavez.

Isos wrote:So the all thing about gov change fucked up. US failed. Now that they didn't succeed and didn't send army, everyone saw it was a bluff.

Even if it is now clear that maduro has no future, the US puppet is no better for venezuelans who don't want him to be a leader at all. No support, he just come in middle of protests but they don't care about him.

Maduro should be removed by china and russia. He is useless. Nothing like Chavez.

He's an ex cab driver. He just does not have the caliber of Chavez. But Chavez set Maduro up by engaging in too much nationalization at the end of
his presidency. There was no need for another pure socialism experiment which was going to fail anyway. Both Chavez and Maduro should have
focused on developing a loyal Venezuelan elite. If that means having a capitalist class then so be it. The poor masses are never organized and
focused. That is why hierarchies develop and hold power. So the game has to be played and pretending that some utopian collective will arise
from good wishes is delusional.

Russia in the last 20 years is exhibit A in supporting my case. During the 1990s there was the belief in the phony monetarist religion that caused a
massive economic implosion. By dropping any idealized view of social and economic organization, the country could finally get back on its feet.
Pursuing an ideology implies breaking things by the mere fact that they do not conform to one's ideology. This is unacceptable. No human or organization
understands societal and economic dynamics completely. All theories are approximations, especially in this field given its complexity and noisiness of
the data.

@ KVS

Agree . By the same token , any other economic model , should be judged . Not thorough ideological bias , but thorough results . There is nothing or little , that is illogical about socialist economics . At least that is my understanding . It may be a good model . Like a Rolls Royce car . But you need a good driver to keep it running . It may work in some cases . Depending on the social consciousness of the population . Objective measurements are possible to determine effectiveness . For farming , one such simple measure , can be weight of produce .

Amusing, people in foreign countries telling venezuela who they can and cannot have as a leader...

Personally I would say the the west had better be careful because Maduro was voted in legally only last year and had better election figures that much of the western world...



Based on the figures above who should go first?

Amusing some people think so little of cab drivers... is he also dumb because he is Venezuelan?

Screw setting up some sort of elite support group... how would they be any different from the rich fat cats who want Americans in there running the place so they can make more money and the government stops wasting money on the poor and the people who need help?