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    Venezuela crisis

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    Will usa be successful in installing it's puppet

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:07 am

    So Venezuela got the support of UN Security Council... what is the breakthrough development that gets Maduro ousted?

    As Moon of Alabama put it, US plan looks a bit like this:
    Venezuela crisis - Page 10 Gnomeplan-s

    BKP wrote:As for that nest of Washington spies and saboteurs holed up in the US so-called "embassy," they should be completely cordoned off and cut off. The Russians might donate some equipment that can jam even their satellite phones. Then they can sit and swelter for as long as it takes for Washington to pedal their asses back from whence they came.
    Indeed. I expect some serious intelligence support from Russia being already deployed to help Venezuela with the technology and know-how to get the further steps of the coup neutralized and its organizers located.

    "Our" interest? So, when you're not here posting I guess you're getting chauffeur-driven to Davos power luncheons. Rolling Eyes
    lol1 lol1 lol1 I have no words for this guy's Napoleon complex and his belief that an American pet like France is a super power, really unique

    GarryB wrote:They clearly knew they could not win so they didn't bother which shows it was probably not even close
    It is amazing isn't it? It is like me challenging Mike Tyson for a box combat, not participating due to any excuse and then claiming in reality I am the winner... literally like that respekt

    PapaDragon wrote:I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere and I say this as someone who got to experience both socialism and its fallout
    My point is not to defend socialism, is to make clear that political system is largely irrelevant under the warfare conditions Venezuela faces. Is like if you are run over by a bus, kicked in the balls and poisoned and then accused of having bad health because of the time you spend in the hospital. It is literally only adding insult to injury.

    If your plan is to take on global capitalist order then smart thing to do would be not to keep your money in capitalist banks
    Of course, but you have to play with the cards you are given, not the ones you would fancy having. Start conditions for Venezuela were being a colony without essentially any element of national sovereignty you know...

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:53 am

    I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere..
    Besides Cuba, Yugoslavia, Iraq & Libya can be added here, before they were bombed/invaded & split up. No socialist state is alike: in some, more private property & commercial activity was/is allowed than in others. N. Korea, Laos & Vietnam r still standing & reforming.
    Start conditions for Venezuela were being a colony..
    This pretender wants his country to become a colony again, but ironically, its former master, Spain, is against it, not because some1 else will colonize it, but as a matter of principle.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:03 am

    I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere and I say this as someone who got to experience both socialism and its fallout

    Of course... survival of the fittest... the poor and the not so intelligent and the quite intelligent but unlucky should rely on the kindness of others to survive there is no place for elected governments to look after the people that elected them... guess what buddy... western civilisation is not working either and as the gulf between the rich and the poor becomes wider... as the rich use their power to become super rich and the middle class move down into the category of poor there are going to be problems and I can guarantee that socialism is going to be part of the solution... severing the claws of the super rich from essentials of life like power and water and health and education etc etc...

    And one that socialists are proving to be painfully unprepared for

    Almost as if they are geared to help the poor in Venezuela and not fight the peace and freedom loving west... weird...

    Success of a system depends of amount of money it possess not it's ideology

    Yeah... that is the Kool Aide talking buddy.

    Cuba ?

    Cuba is not a rich country, but any other country on the planet that got as much shit from the US would have been crushed like a bug... lots of respect to Cuba... and Iran and North Korea and Russia and China for resisting the Kool Aide.

    Problem is that when the Kool Aide fails to work they start waterboarding... unless you do it to an American....

    It is like the Skripal case all over... we have decided you are guilty, so just admit it and then we can decide your punishment... we will start with these punishments...

    Russia needs to start molesting the US elections... Putin should come out and clearly state that he supports Trump for President and that he is definitely the best man for the job.

    There are some very intelligent Americans but right now it is clearly the inmates running the asylum so they will likely take the bait... and then Putin should say it is OK that Trump wont win because of his support because the Democrats and the Republicans are both in cahoots with Russia and big business so it really does not matter which you vote for... Hahahahahahaha...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:38 am

    Trump is a maverick, an American Chruchev & Gorbachev rolled into 1 if u will. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/maverick
    No wonder Putin wanted him instead of Hillary Clinton & her husband in the White House.
    Now he may want to crush pro-Russian Maduro & show the Washington establishment that he's not in bed with Putin, killing 2 birds with 1 stone!
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:31 am

    I rather doubt Putin wanted Trump... I suspect like many of the people who voted for Trump... he just didn't want Hillary...

    It does not seem to me to be Trump driving this... I don't think he has the smarts to know why America is even doing this...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:41 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere..
    Besides Cuba, Yugoslavia....

    Yugoslavia was living off the loans given to it by USA. 80 billion dollars unadjusted for inflation.

    The moment handouts stopped whole socialist "Utopia" went down the shitter as expected.


    GarryB wrote:...Almost as if they are geared to help the poor in Venezuela...

    The poor of Venezuela are about to string them up from the lampposts.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:35 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:This pretender wants his country to become a colony again, but ironically, its former master, Spain, is against it, not because some1 else will colonize it, but as a matter of principle.
    Spain is a US pet too and will do as said, period. But in their case economic interests exist, for which keeping Venezuela a subservient state ruled by a comprador elite is also interesting. Their posture towards Chavismo has been frontal opposition and thorough bashing from the very beginning. Very sad and shameful behaviour to wards a brotherly nation.

    PapaDragon wrote:I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere and I say this as someone who got to experience both socialism and its fallout
    You forgot a small detail... what about China? You can add Vietnam to it too.

    GarryB wrote:guess what buddy... western civilisation is not working either and as the gulf between the rich and the poor becomes wider... as the rich use their power to become super rich and the middle class move down into the category of poor there are going to be problems and I can guarantee that socialism is going to be part of the solution... severing the claws of the super rich from essentials of life like power and water and health and education etc etc...
    You have a point there man. Capitalism is definitely not sustainable and is losing quite a bit of its appeal as resources dwindle and there are no more spoils to keep the poor happy and motivated. In the end all forms of government consist in an elite ruling the masses so I don't even care about the delusion of democracy, but socialism could be more resilient and more sustainable in a future with less resources.
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Sun Jan 27, 2019 4:56 pm

    Spain's only ties left to Latin America are language. Their elite are subservient to the Anglo-world. They're a disgrace.

    Their favorite son - Argentina - is back to being an IMF slut.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:40 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:Spain's only ties left to Latin America are language. Their elite are subservient to the Anglo-world. They're a disgrace.

    Their favorite son - Argentina - is back to being an IMF slut.
    They are a disgrace indeed, we are saying the same. But I have to dispute that the ties to Latin America are language only. There are huge bonds due to culture and blood. Migration in both ways is quite big as well as commercial relations.

    On a different note, very good piece busting many of the commonly repeated BS points about Venezuela, worth reading:

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/01/these-media-claims-about-venezuela-are-lies-or-misconceptions.html#more
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:32 pm

    "It reminds of the events before the invasion of Iraq": what might Western intervention in the internal affairs of Venezuela lead to
    Trump may also try to use Venezuela's $ to build his border wall with Mexico, like Iranian $ were used to arm the Nicaraguan Contras.
    BKP
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    Post  BKP on Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:08 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:I am yet to see it work successfully anywhere and I say this as someone who got to experience both socialism and its fallout

    GarryB wrote:guess what buddy... western civilisation is not working either and as the gulf between the rich and the poor becomes wider... as the rich use their power to become super rich and the middle class move down into the category of poor there are going to be problems and I can guarantee that socialism is going to be part of the solution... severing the claws of the super rich from essentials of life like power and water and health and education etc etc...

    LMFS wrote:You have a point there man. Capitalism is definitely not sustainable and is losing quite a bit of its appeal as resources dwindle and there are no more spoils to keep the poor happy and motivated. In the end all forms of government consist in an elite ruling the masses so I don't even care about the delusion of democracy, but socialism could be more resilient and more sustainable in a future with less resources.

    I've always seen these distinctions as more than a bit arbitrary. In theory, I suppose, "socialism" is government/public involvement in, or even overall control of, some aspects of society. This would usually be in the form of planning, funding and oversight, and even in acting as employer in some instances. Market capitalism is implied to be independent of such involvement, therefore important economic entities are widely perceived as self-financing and self-directing, thriving or failing based solely on an ability to adopt to the changing conditions of the so-called "free" market.

    But, in practice, it almost never works out that way so cleanly, does it? No, not by a long shot. Maybe for some smaller-scale things, and in some ideological fantasies, but that's about it. Countries that get termed "socialist" have attributes of the latter, and those termed "capitalist" have attributes of the former, sometimes massively so. This is certainly true of the world's recognized standard-bearer of hardcore capitalism, the USA. The practical differences are often those of detail rather than nature.

    But, playing up such distinctions, while applying easily-grasped and psychologically-delineating labels, can be helpful in singling out and simplifying the domestic perception of some enemy in the making.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:59 pm

    BKP wrote:But, in practice, it almost never works out that way so cleanly, does it? No, not by a long shot. Maybe for some smaller-scale things, and in some ideological fantasies, but that's about it. Countries that get termed "socialist" have attributes of the latter, and those termed "capitalist" have attributes of the former, sometimes massively so. This is certainly true of the world's recognized standard-bearer of hardcore capitalism, the USA. The practical differences are often those of detail rather than nature.

    But, playing up such distinctions, while applying easily-grasped and psychologically-delineating labels, can be helpful in singling out and simplifying the domestic perception of some enemy in the making.
    thumbsup

    Very much in agreement. Elements of national development are as old as civilization and independent of ideologies. China is a centrally planed economy that uses capitalism full throttle, US a "free market" economy that rigs what it perceives belonging to national security and applies arbitrary sanctions at discretion. All this ideological chatter is BS and is frankly of little use to understand things.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:41 am

    Before Venezuela, US has long involvement in Latin America
    History repeats itself. 2 years after California was annexed, gold was discovered there. Even if it didn't happen, I'm sure the US or UK ( Sir F. Drake landed there before the Spaniards & claimed it for the Queen Elizabeth I) would have found an excuse to invade Mexico & take it.
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/oct/21/sir-francis-drake-san-francisco-bay

    The same with Alaska purchased dirt cheap from Russia, which was afraid to lose it, in 1867, where gold was discovered in 1896.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase

    Only 2 countries in the Americas successfully defended themselves during American invasions: Canada in 1812 & Cuba in 1961.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

    The latter failure played a role in Kennedy's assassination, which was actually a coup.
    Venezuela: delayed game over
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2560068.html

    US can get war close to its southern borders
    https://regnum.ru/news/polit/2560228.html



    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add links)
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:27 am

    BKP wrote:I've always seen these distinctions as more than a bit arbitrary. In theory, I suppose, "socialism" is government/public involvement in, or even overall control of, some aspects of society.

    "Big government = socialism" is a big big big misconception that Western media give us.

    Big government can be actually state capitalism, and the biggest state capitalism in the world is USA.

    Socialism is more of a mode of production and economic relationship.

    A very simple explanation of this term is: Sociailism means the production means have to be given back to their rightful owners, that is the working people. And the ruling class of the society is the working people, not the blood suckers, not the parasites, not the criminals.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:31 am

    After the Bolshevik coup in Russia, Lenin felt that the dictatorship of the proletariat is a too serious matter to leave it to the proletariat alone. They ruled on their & peasants behalf, killing Ms of both in the process. However, even under Stalin, Georgians in his native Georgia were allowed more private enterprise than any1 else, which resulted in a higher standard of living.
    But in general, smarter people band together to form elites running a shadow economy, like they did under Brezhnev & now around Maduro.
    From an ancient Chinese saying: "those who work with their hands r ruled, while those who work with their heads rule".
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    Post  ATLASCUB on Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:40 am

    LMFS wrote:
    ATLASCUB wrote:Spain's only ties left to Latin America are language. Their elite are subservient to the Anglo-world. They're a disgrace.

    Their favorite son - Argentina - is back to being an IMF slut.
    They are a disgrace indeed, we are saying the same. But I have to dispute that the ties to Latin America are language only. There are huge bonds due to culture and blood. Migration in both ways is quite big as well as commercial relations.

    On a different note, very good piece busting many of the commonly repeated BS points about Venezuela, worth reading:

    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/01/these-media-claims-about-venezuela-are-lies-or-misconceptions.html#more

    Huge bonds is quite an overexaggeration. As for commercial ties...that's not saying much considering the commercial ties these countries have with each other and all the major economic power centers of the world, dwarfing Spains. But they do make use of the language access to these markets. I can only picture what they would be without them. Spain is as irrelevant to world affairs and politics as a mouse.
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    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:25 am

    Well I am surprised nobody has started thread yet so here it is. 

    what's people's view on the current situation and likely outcome? 

    If USA is successful in installing it's assigned puppet what will this mean for Russia and China?
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:58 am

    Still, it was important enough to be courted by accepted into NATO.
    If tomorrow she leaves NATO, the other dominoes will start falling in rapid succession.


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    Post  Airman on Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:11 am

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:57 am

    Contracts were signed so russia and china don't care if this new guy come to power. Venezuela will still have to pay back.

    Propaganda on both side is too high to have a clear view of what is going on. But if they keep the US variable constant in the equation then the outcome is well known.
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:37 pm

    ATLASCUB wrote:Huge bonds is quite an overexaggeration. As for commercial ties...that's not saying much considering the commercial ties these countries have with each other and all the major economic power centers of the world, dwarfing Spains. But they do make use of the language access to these markets. I can only picture what they would be without them. Spain is as irrelevant to world affairs and politics as a mouse.
    I am not saying Spain determines what happens in Venezuela, only that it has, obviously, much more links to South America and Venezuela than other European countries, not only commercial but specially cultural and demographic. But in any case that is not the topic here and what Spain says or does is scarcely relevant in the evolution of the US-lead coup.

    Back to the issue at hand it seems there were quite a few attempts last days (especially the 24th) to disrupt the peace in the streets, this time also outside of the higher-class cities and neighbourhoods where this was typical, some guys like the ones below ("moderate rebels" all over again?) got killed and 18 policemen got shot. Syria script all over again, with a proposed amnesty law to the military that supports the insurgency, but it got little traction until now apparently. Armed forces are deploying to the Colombian border and holding today march to signal their support for the government. The issue now is to what point US wants to escalate and what the Venezuelan armed forces can cope with, but by now the life of the country has not been disrupted to the point where the insurgence can suceed.

    Venezuela crisis - Page 10 Dx8wD2XWwAoU2u0

    https://twitter.com/madeleintlSUR/status/1089640664801906693
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:46 pm

    Isos, you show once again your lack of knowledge on these topics.

    Contracts are worth the paper they are written on. See Ukraine. They are going against majority of contracts signed and not paying debts back.

    Russia and China already backs Maduro. They will provide limited support for now unless requests come in.
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    Post  Hannibal Barca on Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:59 pm

    China and Russia too strong to fault circa 2019, only if they blunder, voted NO.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:49 pm

    This whole thing stinks, and the reason why is that US and EU are proving to the rest of the world that elections, observers, etc all are useless because if the US doesn't like you, they will just state someone else is the president of said country.

    Russia and China needs to make it very clear, with both military assets and businessmen that they will support venezuela, to really put it to EU and US.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:12 pm

    Contracts are worth the paper they are written on. See Ukraine. They are going against majority of contracts signed and not paying debts back.

    Debts stay as long as they are not paid. That's capitalism. If you don't pay them no one will trust you. You have some debts that are 50 years old and still exist. Russia few years ago cancelled a cuban debt that from the socuet times.

    Ukrainian ones are still there. They don't want to pay but russian banks don't forget. If they want to make business with russia again they will have to pay them back.

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