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    Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:32 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They'll replace a couple or Kirov class CGNs & could be used in both the Indian & Arctic Oceans for BMD & SLOCs protection; so it makes more sense to have NPPs in them.

    With Russia's scarcity of naval basses it would be hard to make other choice.




    kumbor wrote:

    Nuclear propulsion is still more expensive than any other, but has obvious advantages of unlimited autonomy.

    not really, you dont count tens of military bases around the world to refuel yous ship.




    KUMBOR wrote: Zumwalt is a futuristic vessel, but is futile in many ways. There are problems of stability, list, pitch, yaw, sway and all that, On sea state 6-7, often in the ocean, Zumwalt TENDS TO BECOME A SUBMARINE! censored Suspect


    one way submersible for sure lol1 lol1
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:27 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:...

    19K Tons of dreams: will Russia build the ship of the future

    The project of the future warship of the future for the Russian Navy, long known under the cipher "Leader", at the end of February 2019, presented the society with two news. First, sources in the shipbuilding industry reported that the displacement of the projected ship had grown to 19 thousand tons, and secondly, information appeared about the intention to build two combat units of this project by the end of the 2020s. Izvestia understands the situation.

    This is right.

    Despite tons of comments against this project from the pro-US and pro-Israel people in this forum, the project goes forward.

    The construction of the first unit was assured with the approval of the preliminary project in the spring of 2017.

    Now there are more concrete news about the second unit, that has a timeline like 2 years after the first.

    And being a project of strategic importance for the Russian Navy, more delays are unlikely, and the first unit can be commissioned by the end of 2025.

    Where is now all the people saying that the Project 23560 was out of the State Armament Project 2018-2027? The reality always comes for them like a truck over a .... in the road.

    But still for George1 the troll is me...
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    they'll interfere with hydrodynamics of high speed & slow the ship down with greater water resistance, unless they r made retractable.

    They could angle them down and hydroplane lifting the ship out of the water and greatly improve speed performance...
    You would loose a good amount of power due to that angling, and it is doubtful you are going to lift a ship that big (you would rather sink the bow, unless the propellers are at the front of CoG). Electric propulsion offers the great advantage of splitting the generation and the propulsion, which can lead to better layout. But you need to transform your primary source of energy into electric current in the first place, generators are not exactly light or cheap. And you will work with high voltage (more dangerous and specialised maintenance) or you will need to handle impracticably high currents. The cabling and power conversion equipment needed for handling the absolutely MASSIVE amounts of power a big vessel needs are a technical challenge, expensive and heavy and with big cooling demands. So it is not like is 100% advantages and no downsides.

    I wonder what alternative to shafts the Krylov guy is meaning, podded propellers are not present AFAIK in any high speed ship.

    Being fast is rather nice, but there is no benefit in being faster than any of the ships in your carrier group... I can't see landing ships running at more than 16 knots, and while US carriers have been reported to run quite fast even the noisiest diesel electric could sink such a blind target that is still not fast enough to outrun a torpedo... but it will be running fast enough to not know it is under attack.
    A carrier sailing at 30 kts is not easy to follow for diesel subs I guess, this may be one of the main issues. And coherently the ships accompanying it are better off with NPP, if it was not that expensive.

    Many of the ideas for the Zumwalt might be brilliant, but trying to combine them with other things or a bad implimentation might have made them all fail miserably.
    Exactly. You cannot deny the value of the "all electric" approach just because the US MIC wanted to rip DoD off.

    There is no real alternative to NPP for large ships, and they are getting more powerful and smaller and safer all the time.

    New models can be designed to not need refuelling for 20-30 years... and it is refuelling that is one of the most expensive things regarding existing nuclear submarines...
    Yes, this was the alleged reason for last US nuclear cruisers (Virginia class) being scrapped. This new technology allowing the ships essentially to cover their whole life without refuelling can be very important for the economic viability of Lider and other future Russian nuclear ships.

    The US doesn't make conventional submarines... what does that indicate?
    The don't have nuclear destroyers or cruisers anymore either...

    Russia isn't going to be making dozens of these ships... especially if they are 20K tons, so they might as well not be cheap and cheerful.
    They need to be capable of solving a crisis almost by themselves so agree they can be relatively expensive ships.

    Gunship wrote:electrical engines, lasers, EM weapons (plasma shields?) + nuclear power plant - deosnt it sound like synergy?
    Of course. Plus almost anything today is powered with electricity so it makes sense to go all electric with power from step 1. Throttling capacity is very relevant nevertheless, traditional NPP are not good at that.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Mar 03, 2019 3:15 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    Russia isn't going to be making dozens of these ships... especially if they are 20K tons, so they might as well not be cheap and cheerful.
    They need to be capable of solving a crisis almost by themselves so agree they can be relatively expensive ships.

    yup, so called "source" sid ~$1,5B   per ship.


    quantity? in my IMHO the one way to count is replacing Slavas and Orlans ~ 5-6
    The other is number of CSGs. Look at Mistrals. Number 4 was ordered for a reason. IMHO 1 Arctic, 1 Pacific/Kamchatka + 2 roaming oceans.  




    Gunship wrote:quot;]electrical  engines, lasers, EM weapons (plasma shields?) + nuclear power plant  - deosnt it sound like synergy?
    Of course. Plus almost anything today is powered with electricity so it makes sense to go all electric with power from step 1. Throttling capacity is very relevant nevertheless, traditional NPP are not good at that.
    [/quote]

    True it would be interesting how "turbo" will be sorted out? maybe extra turbines but for electrical power generation? so no extra shafts needed?
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:39 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:quantity? in my IMHO the one way to count is replacing Slavas and Orlans ~ 5-6
    Agree, this seems most probable number, if the program goes further. So it would allow simultaneous deployment with CSG and as a separate group without the carrier but with subs, still with significant deterrence capability.
    The other is number of CSGs. Look at Mistrals. Number 4 was ordered for a reason. IMHO 1 Arctic, 1 Pacific/Kamchatka + 2 roaming oceans.
     
    I guess they would not need to be deployed always with CSGs. But Mistral numbers and numbers of CSGs are also not necessarily identical...
    Gunship wrote:True it would be interesting how "turbo" will be sorted out? maybe extra turbines but for electrical power generation? so no extra shafts needed?
    Most probably CONAG propulsion system, either the gas turbines geared to the propulsion shaft or generating current for electric motors.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:59 pm

    eehnie wrote:

    Now there are more concrete news about the second unit, that has a timeline like 2 years after the first.

    And being a project of strategic importance for the Russian Navy, more delays are unlikely, and the first unit can be commissioned by the end of 2025.

    Where is now all the people saying that the Project 23560 was out of the State Armament Project 2018-2027? The reality always comes for them like a truck over a .... in the road.

    But still for George1 the troll is me...

    Wait, are you saying it wasnt laid down already? Son i remember clearly you said it was laid down already... its on Wikipedia it has to be true...
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Mar 03, 2019 8:43 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:

    Now there are more concrete news about the second unit, that has a timeline like 2 years after the first.

    And being a project of strategic importance for the Russian Navy, more delays are unlikely, and the first unit can be commissioned by the end of 2025.

    Where is now all the people saying that the Project 23560 was out of the State Armament Project 2018-2027? The reality always comes for them like a truck over a .... in the road.

    But still for George1 the troll is me...

    Wait, are you saying it wasnt laid down already? Son i remember clearly you said it was laid down already... its on Wikipedia it has to be true...

    Your memory has some fault, check it, this is wrong, like your comments about the Tu-PAK-DA.

    This is the source I quoted:

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    You can see here the name of the first unit (that you can confirm in multiple other sources), and a note saying "under construction", something perfectly compatible with the reality of the Technical Project ongoing since the approval of the Preliminary Project, but there is not a fixed data for the laid down.

    When the laid down be done... Twisted Evil
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    Post  Guest on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 pm

    eehnie wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:

    Now there are more concrete news about the second unit, that has a timeline like 2 years after the first.

    And being a project of strategic importance for the Russian Navy, more delays are unlikely, and the first unit can be commissioned by the end of 2025.

    Where is now all the people saying that the Project 23560 was out of the State Armament Project 2018-2027? The reality always comes for them like a truck over a .... in the road.

    But still for George1 the troll is me...

    Wait, are you saying it wasnt laid down already? Son i remember clearly you said it was laid down already... its on Wikipedia it has to be true...

    Your memory has some fault, check it, this is wrong, like your comments about the Tu-PAK-DA.

    This is the source I quoted:

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    You can see here the name of the first unit (that you can confirm in multiple other sources), and a note saying "under construction", something perfectly compatible with the reality of the technical project ongoing, but there is not a fixed data for the laid down.

    When the laid down be done... Twisted Evil

    Ah, yes, PAK-DA, naturally, hypersonic flying wing. How could i forget.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:18 pm

    Does he still think they are buildings Liders? Lawls.

    commissioned by 2025 that's even funnier, Russia could never build and Sea Test a ship like that so quick.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:27 pm

    On an 80K ton ship the propeller shafts are probably 1,000 tons..
    They still need more ballast for stability. Even a CVN rolls in heavy seas with waves breaking over the bow.
    The USN went all nuclear with subs after the MIC pushed it to get more $. They lost on it later as Taiwan needs new SSKs but has no1 else to turn to. But, the US yards don't & can't make them, even for export. Now they must make more SSNs to replace those they decommissioned earlier, wasting $ twice.
    SSKs r cheaper to build & operate + they can last longer- many r still in reserves in China & NK.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:28 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Does he still think they are buildings Liders? Lawls.

    commissioned by 2025 that's even funnier, Russia could never build and Sea Test a ship like that so quick.

    Well... 5 pages and few months ago he said its already laid down... in 2017. I mean... some random site says so, it must be fucking right.
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    Post  Guest on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:33 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    On an 80K ton ship the propeller shafts are probably 1,000 tons..
    They still need more ballast for stability. Even a CVN rolls in heavy seas with waves breaking over the bow.
    The USN went all nuclear with subs after the MIC pushed it to get more $. They lost on it later as Taiwan needs new SSKs but has no1 else to turn to. But, the US yards don't & can't make them, even for export. Now they must make more SSNs to replace those they decommissioned earlier, wasting $ twice.
    SSKs r cheaper to build & operate + they can last longer- many r still in reserves in China & NK.

    Well Navy also pushed budget towards nuclear component to achieve complete strategic mobility of submarine fleet which they couldnt do with diesels. They could make them, some shipyards were turning to Gov. to fund the project to provide Taiwan, Turkey, Australia and some other countries with diesels but they didnt seem to care since Germany was building 209s.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:59 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Does he still think they are buildings Liders? Lawls.

    commissioned by 2025 that's even funnier, Russia could never build and Sea Test a ship like that so quick.

    Well... 5 pages and few months ago he said its already laid down... in 2017. I mean... some random site says so, it must be fucking right.

    False

    Militarov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:Your memory has some fault, check it, this is wrong, like your comments about the Tu-PAK-DA.

    This is the source I quoted:

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    You can see here the name of the first unit (that you can confirm in multiple other sources), and a note saying "under construction", something perfectly compatible with the reality of the technical project ongoing, but there is not a fixed data for the laid down.

    When the laid down be done... Twisted Evil

    Ah, yes, PAK-DA, naturally, hypersonic flying wing. How could i forget.

    Did you saw the new Russian supersonic flying wing? Hypersonic is the fall of your arguments.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:35 pm

    Oh that's not false you did say a hull was under construction because some web site claimed so, EVERYONE here knows you said that don't try and back peddle now.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:38 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oh that's not false you did say a hull was under construction because some web site claimed so, EVERYONE here knows you said that don't try and back peddle now.

    He also said that before 2019 we will see Shtorm contract being signed or something like that. Theb he disapeared.
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    Post  eehnie on Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:46 pm

    False statements have very short run. These are my comments of the Page 9 of this topic:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#184241
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#191000
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#192933
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#192938
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#212617
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#212641
    http://www.russiadefence.net/t3297p200-promising-destroyer-lider-class#212660

    In the 6th my alone use of the term laid down:

    eehnie wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.

    Say what!!

    Which shipyard????

    I have not more information than the source. Surely will become public at the time of laid down.

    It will be time to analyze the quotes of others.

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:08 am

    The phrase "under construction" in shipbuilding should mean "laid down" & everything that happens after it until it's launched, not the start of computer/paper design work.
    I too can hire some1 to design & draw a yacht & claim that I started it's construction before sending it to the actual builders.
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:21 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The phrase "under construction" in shipbuilding should mean "laid down" & everything that happens after it until it's launched, not the start of computer/paper design work.
    I too can hire some1 to design & draw a yacht & claim that I started it's construction before sending it to the actual builders.

    Not necessarily.

    Laid Down is a ceremony done after the begin of the construction of some parts (at least of the plate installed and of the piece where the plate is installed in the ceremony, because both come to the ceremony after some mechanical work, and many times more parts are produced before the laid down).
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:27 am

    Cutting metal & producing parts to be used in construction isn't the same as actually starting construction, i.e. assembly of a ship.
    Those same parts can be scrapped or used for some other ship should plans change. Those items r called "long lead" in the US, FYI.
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    Post  eehnie on Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:57 am

    Construction is not assembly.








    PS:vvvvvvvvvvv dunno dunno dunno

    Tsavo Lion wrote:I have bad news for u! FYI:
    [i]Assembly: [u]the fitting together of manufactured parts

    The processes of manufacturing the assembled parts are also part of the construction of a ship, but not of the assembly.


    Last edited by eehnie on Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:15 am

    I have bad news for u! FYI:
    Assembly: the fitting together of manufactured parts into a complete machine, structure, or unit of a machine
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assembly

    Shipbuilding is the construction of ships and other floating vessels.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shipbuilding

    Ship construction, complex of activities concerned with the design and fabrication of all marine vehicles.
    https://www.britannica.com/technology/ship-construction

    Fabrication of a ship is its construction.
    The conceptual design may have started, but it's not the same as actual construction/assembly have started.  I don't need to be a linguist or a shipbuilder to understand the difference.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:21 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link)
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    Post  hoom on Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:09 am

    To be fair modules start to be constructed before the official laying down.
    There doesn't seem to be any particular standard minimum size chunk that they use to decide they have enough to have a laying down ceremony.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:29 am

    Joining large sections together is also called assembly.
    eehnie was gone for a while & thought we won't be dealing with his nitpicking anymore! Have a nice day, mister!
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:03 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Oh that's not false you did say a hull was under construction because some web site claimed so, EVERYONE here knows you said that don't try and back peddle now.

    He also said that before 2019 we will see Shtorm contract being signed or something like that. Theb he disapeared.

    Now he is trying to back peddle and say he never said a Lider was being built lol.

    This is hilarious, what does he think everyone forgot what he said?.

    Jesus he must have a really bad mental disability.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:32 am

    perhaps but this w not what I was talking about. 80cells for AShM only.

    Perhaps the reason they are talking about a destroyer with 100 plus Zircons is because they might actually only have 64 Zircons and the rest are SAMs or other missiles because it will have UKSK-M launch tubes?

    A bit like when America Strong fanbois talk about AEGIS class cruisers it has 184 SAMs or 184 cruise missiles or whatever max capacity of what ever weapon you happen to be talking about... but in actual practise it will never carry that many of anything...

    In fact they likely never carry a full load of any missiles because it would cost too damn much to buy that many missiles anyway...

    Not sure if we're talking about the same. Neither Kinzhal nor Avangard ship missiles and is not going to be used on . The sense Zircons/Liders is in power projection for expeditionary forces. Instead of airwing.

    I thought it was the suggestion that even with 100 Zircons... the Americans have more than 100 ships so it is going to run out of missiles before they run out of ships... but lets face it after the second ship sinks, and they realise their super defence systems don't work, the rest will run for the hills... the 7 years is the minimum time to get a leader into the water and it is a bare and optimistic minimum...

    FOBS AFAIK ws related to R36 not Burans. But all links/sources are welcome

    FOBS was SS-9, but Skif was mounted on an Energyia rocket like Buran was... so Skif is a Buran launch without the Buran.

    It was merely a suggestion that the Energyia rocket was designed for large payloads on its back... like Skif or Buran, so a simple fairing with lots of warheads would also do the job... there were agreements in place to make it not legal of course.

    not really, you dont count tens of military bases around the world to refuel yous ship.

    Russia had trouble getting to Syria.... a big ship like a carrier takes a lot of fuel to power... some small country ports probably couldn't cope with that sort of business...

    Despite tons of comments against this project from the pro-US and pro-Israel people in this forum, the project goes forward.

    The construction of the first unit was assured with the approval of the preliminary project in the spring of 2017.

    Now there are more concrete news about the second unit, that has a timeline like 2 years after the first.

    And being a project of strategic importance for the Russian Navy, more delays are unlikely, and the first unit can be commissioned by the end of 2025.

    Where is now all the people saying that the Project 23560 was out of the State Armament Project 2018-2027? The reality always comes for them like a truck over a .... in the road.

    I personally am happy to see progress on this, and don't share the pessimism of the doom sayers that the Russian Navy is dead or doomed to remain a green water fleet.

    You would loose a good amount of power due to that angling, and it is doubtful you are going to lift a ship that big (you would rather sink the bow, unless the propellers are at the front of CoG).

    Dude... talking about a speed boat, not a ship.

    The cabling and power conversion equipment needed for handling the absolutely MASSIVE amounts of power a big vessel needs are a technical challenge, expensive and heavy and with big cooling demands. So it is not like is 100% advantages and no downsides.

    But I thought all the problems would be solved by the Pixies from magic land like they normally are with new technology...

    Land sea or air or indeed space and on other planets such problems are going to crop up and need solutions... do you wait until the Zumwalt is in the water and something dont work, or do you test some equipment on a nice big ship with propulsion issues already...
    If it fails on the Kuznetsov as an upgrade... retire her early... if it succeeds then you get three CVNs instead of two.

    I wonder what alternative to shafts the Krylov guy is meaning, podded propellers are not present AFAIK in any high speed ship.

    The fact that they have not been put in a high speed ship does not mean they couldn't be... perhaps some sort of planing hydrofoils could be used... having large ships moving at 40-50 knots... a 60 knot carrier an AN-2 would struggle to keep up with it and landing could be vertical...

    Yes, this was the alleged reason for last US nuclear cruisers (Virginia class) being scrapped. This new technology allowing the ships essentially to cover their whole life without refuelling can be very important for the economic viability of Lider and other future Russian nuclear ships.

    Russia is a world leader in NPP and dealing with nuclear power and refuelling...

    The don't have nuclear destroyers or cruisers anymore either...

    But how many hundred of those do they have... and how many are Russia going to have?

    Of course. Plus almost anything today is powered with electricity so it makes sense to go all electric with power from step 1. Throttling capacity is very relevant nevertheless, traditional NPP are not good at that.

    If you have 10 compact NPPs around the ship and only have all 10 running when running at full speed with your nipples out...

    The other is number of CSGs. Look at Mistrals. Number 4 was ordered for a reason. IMHO 1 Arctic, 1 Pacific/Kamchatka + 2 roaming oceans.

    Actually the plan for two Mistrals was one for the Pacific/Kuriles, and the other for the northern fleet and arctic with icebreakers opening the way between them periodically. If four were bought the plan was two at each of the two ports... Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet.

    In terms of wandering the Pacific fleet ship might have wandered around the Pacific and Asia and central and south America on the Pacific side, while the northern fleet spare might have gone down into the atlantic to africa and central and south america like Cuba and Venezuela and Brazil.

    True it would be interesting how "turbo" will be sorted out? maybe extra turbines but for electrical power generation? so no extra shafts needed?

    You could have gas turbines or diesels or both, but they would be connected with dynamos rather than drive shafts and transmissions...

    Like an electric car with electric motors on each wheel... you can have batteries and fuel cells and small gas turbines running all sorts of fuel from diesel or petrol to LNG or even hydrogen with the fuel cell. In this case a gas turbine is small and running at optimum speed all the time quite fuel efficient in generating power.

    In a tank you spend most of your time accelerating from zero to as fast as you can to move from cover to cover which is very non fuel efficient for a gas turbine. The electricity generators on command tanks are normally small gas turbines that can run for days and burn a lot less than the main tank engine (diesel or gas turbine) to keep the systems running and the heater going do you don't need a tent for your tank...

    Most probably CONAG propulsion system, either the gas turbines geared to the propulsion shaft or generating current for electric motors.

    You are better off without a propulsion shaft if you don't need one...

    They still need more ballast for stability. Even a CVN rolls in heavy seas with waves breaking over the bow.

    There are plenty of alternatives...

    Now they must make more SSNs to replace those they decommissioned earlier, wasting $ twice.
    SSKs r cheaper to build & operate + they can last longer- many r still in reserves in China & NK.

    I totally agree with what you are saying... conventional subs can be very potent... the Kilo class is an obvious example and the Lada class will hammer that home even further.... excellent value for money...

    But if they can have less than four aircraft carriers do they want to save a little money and make them smaller and cheaper and only able to operate vertical take off fighters that are not even on the drawing board yet, or do they want to spend a bit of money and get better value for money... they are planning EMALS so guess what... they are going to have to develop technology for handling high voltages on ships and the ability to store and move large amounts of electrical power when needed... Gas turbines are good at generating lots of power quickly and so are NPPs... they could use both... they will use both... nuclear powered SSBNs have emergency propulsion systems to get them out of port and out to sea quickly while the reactor is being powered up... that is perfectly normal and most very large ships have a range of power generation systems...

    They could make them, some shipyards were turning to Gov. to fund the project to provide Taiwan, Turkey, Australia and some other countries with diesels but they didnt seem to care since Germany was building 209s.

    Not to mention they had not ready to go conventional designs...


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