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    Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:30 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/radiolocation-radio-electronic-systems-and-complexes/radar-with-rotating-l-band-active-phased-array

    Hope we will see this type of radar on Lider.

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/radiolocation-radio-electronic-systems-and-complexes/radar-with-rotating-l-band-active-phased-array

    Hope we will see this type of radar on Lider.

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.

    we are sorry that you are incapable of logical deduction.
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    Post  hoom on Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:42 am

    It is very large though at 7.1m diameter & L-band.
    Compare with 3.6m AN/SPY-1, 4.2m for AN/SPY-6 for the Flight3 Burkes, 1.4* bigger area than the 6m arrays for the proposed BMD San Antonio Shocked
    The radar up the back of this pic is presumably the same
    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 9 2YkyULp

    Which reminds me of an oddity in the model that I've been meaning to bring up:
    As much as it's just a concept model -> fist full of salt but the front face antenna is really big, much smaller ones on the sides
    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 9 Mock_Leader_class_destroyer_on_%C2%ABArmy_2015%C2%BB_1
    Also still there on the later CG version
    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 9 Project_23560E_Leader_Class_Destroyer_Russian_Navy
    I've been kind of assuming it's for anti-ship detection?
    eehnie
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:55 pm

    Taking into account the current presence of cruisers in the Russian Navy after a long selection process of ships since the fall of the Soviet Union I have not problems to see the need of this project for the Russian Navy. If these ships remain today, it is not by caprice.

    As part of the project Russia will create the necessary infrastructure to build them and it will not take as long as many people think. Plus, Russia will do it thanks to the failure of the Mistral ships purchase. By 2025 the first ship can be finished. The rest later, according to the needs.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:07 pm

    The lider is obvious - to replace existing destroyers and cruisers in Russian Navy that is getting too old and expensive to handle. So this new ship will be built in a timely matter to replace those other larger ships. Will be cheaper in long run.

    Russian Navy is making a transformation. They are going the route of reduced type of ships and going for more less specialized, more multipurpose ships. Makes sense in my opinion.

    It may take them longer to build first unit, but it will be done.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:04 pm

    Isos wrote:http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/radiolocation-radio-electronic-systems-and-complexes/radar-with-rotating-l-band-active-phased-array

    Hope we will see this type of radar on Lider.

    Actualy te 1500 kn range seems like understatement, not overstatement.

    By this links>
    https://mostlymissiledefense.com/2016/07/17/thaad-radar-ranges-july-17-2018/

    http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/02.surv/karte015.en.html

    The THAAD radar acive area fifth of this radar, and has longer range than 1500 km.

    Of course this is not a fire control /MIRV spotter, but early warning/sthealt buster.


    Target is to force the US to develope ICBMs with mid range interceptor avoidance capability, so it is more likely part the strategic rocket forces.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:32 pm

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    Isos wrote:http://concern-agat.ru/en/production/radiolocation-radio-electronic-systems-and-complexes/radar-with-rotating-l-band-active-phased-array

    Hope we will see this type of radar on Lider.

    I am abit skeptical about these ranges they claimed here.

    If you look at the detection ranges of the other radars, it seem like they don't lie. However, Lider is meant to carry S-500 so it will need a radar like this one for ABM role.

    No, no i am not saying they are lying, just that they are being abit optimistic Smile

    Most people here ar optimistic when it comes to the Russians Navy and building ships of this size.

    If I hear the Ice Breaker Excuse again I swear.

    Well, shipbuilding in general aside i worked with radars and detection ranges are... always being set very optimistic by desiegners and producers xD All of them, not only Russians, our US and UK built radars were not performing as good as one might imagine.

    That is typical you need to sell the product after all.

    Agreed, thats why i said they are being "abit optimistic". Like when they told me how certain thermal imaging camera (which i was installing on the van for the border police) can detect human body on "5000m range" and i adjusted software to that fact. Turned out it really would have issues detecting forest wildfire on ranges over 3000m, let alone human.


    This radar four times bigger (by area) than the SPY- on the AB, it has two times longer wavelength.

    It is an early warning radar designed to intercept nuclear warheads, it the detection range of 1000km+ can detect ballistic missile stages/ MIRV buses.

    For a warhead the detection range more likely 500 km, 50% more than for the SPY-1.

    And baseline SPY-1 is.... what like 40 years old now? With currently used variant being 20ish years old?

    Also size of the array doesnt matter much, what matters is the size and number of radiating modules, their output power, their cooling, availability rates, and how mature is the software solution.

    Naturally you have almost 40 other parameters that affect how good radar is from scan frequency, to wavelenghts and pulse repetition frequency.

    Do you know why so few marine radars in the USSR had protective radome? Reason is very interesting and has something to do with one of the things that "matter" i mentioned above, just mentioning it as very nice question for research.

    Also if you really want to talk about size, notice one very important line in the text: "Depending on the class of ship and tasks performed, the radar is "scaled" by changing the APA dimensions".

    I still stand behind my original statement, detection ranges and RCS of the targets they stated is to be taken with grain of salt. Same goes to the US, French, Israeli and other counterparts, dont get me wrong. However not a single radar in our IADS performed the way it was supposed "by the book" from British S-600 to Russian P-40.
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:15 am

    Militarov wrote:

    And baseline SPY-1 is.... what like 40 years old now? With currently used variant being 20ish years old?

    Also size of the array doesnt matter much, what matters is the size and number of radiating modules, their output power, their cooling, availability rates, and how mature is the software solution.

    Naturally you have almost 40 other parameters that affect how good radar is from scan frequency, to wavelenghts and pulse repetition frequency.

    Do you know why so few marine radars in the USSR had protective radome? Reason is very interesting and has something to do with one of the things that "matter" i mentioned above, just mentioning it as very nice question for research.

    Also if you really want to talk about size, notice one very important line in the text: "Depending on the class of ship and tasks performed, the radar is "scaled" by changing the APA dimensions".

    I still stand behind my original statement, detection ranges and RCS of the targets they stated is to be taken with grain of salt. Same goes to the US, French, Israeli and other counterparts, dont get me wrong. However not a single radar in our IADS performed the way it was supposed "by the book" from British S-600 to Russian P-40.

    I'm not a radar expert, but I have the basic radio knowledge,and actualy fascinating to calculate phased arrays : )

    Based on this, each radar has two importand data:
    1. Frequency
    2. Size

    Everything else COMPENSATE the above parameters, by no more than 6 decibel.

    Sy, if you have an X band radar then you need high quality component, if you have an L band radar you can have low quality components, simply because the timing is less critical due to the longer wavelenght.

    From the above two you can calculate the number of radiating element (theroetical maximum) ,and that gives to you the beam with , and sensitivity.

    Perty much that is all that you need.

    The stealth gave a new parameter to this equatation, because it decreased the value of the high frequency radards, and increased the value of the lower , cehaper and simpler low frequency radards.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammut_radar

    Second world war electronic steering phased array early warning radar, 150 MHz, 300 km range : )

    70 years old : ) maybe today it is possible to make bit better : )
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    Post  eehnie on Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:39 pm


    This article has some mention about the status of this project, that seems to be officially ordered fast.

    https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/12/27/10441301.shtml
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    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:37 am

    Sources: destroyer "Leader" will remain in the state armament program
    April 26, 2017 at 21:17 Theme: Industry

    On Wednesday, April 26, the media reported that the prospective destroyer of project 23560 "Leader" was excluded from the state arms program (GPV) until 2025. Sources in the naval industry in a conversation with FlotProm denied this information, adding, however, that the project funding has actually decreased, and therefore the timing of implementation will inevitably move.

    Despite the postponement of the deadline, the ship was not ruled out of the state armament program, as it continues to be in demand, FlotProm told a project specialist close to the project. He added that the new terms of implementation will be determined on April 27.

    Another source in the industry noted that, despite the sufficient number of works carried out by the destroyer Northern PKB and the Krylov State Scientific Center, the timing will shift to the right due to a reduction in shipbuilding financing in general.

    "We continue to work, but its results are directly dependent on funding, and you will not earn much by initiative," he explained.

    Information was confirmed and the third interlocutor FlotProm. According to him, "in the shipbuilding program" Leader "there are some money to support the project within the framework of the GPV allocated."

    "Next, we will wait for their receipt." Design and construction will continue when the leadership decides, "the source concluded.

    Earlier it was reported that the Northern Shipyard was chosen to build the ship. The company plans to modernize its facilities, including those for the construction of a destroyer. According to Delovoy Peterburg, in March the shipyard announced a tender for the first stage of modernization, the results of the competition have not yet been announced.

    The laying of the head destroyer was planned to take place at the end of 2017.

    According to the project, displacement of the destroyer "Leader" is 17.5 thousand tons, length - 200 meters, width - 20 meters, speed - 30 knots, autonomy - 90 days. It was also reported that the ship is equipped with a nuclear power plant for unlimited range of navigation and platforms for 60 anti-ship winged, 128 anti-aircraft and 16 anti-submarine missiles.

    http://flotprom.ru/2017/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B087/
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:55 am


    For me the key with this project is to build the capability of construction of this ship by 2025. For it is necessary to have the first unit by 2025. The following units can have some delay without problem for Russia because the current Russian fleet is not old.

    And the same for the projects 23000E of aircraft carrier and 21956 of destroyer.

    In fact the alone big ships in the Russian fleet that need to have a replacement by 2025 are the remaining cruiser of the Project 1134B (that can be replaced by the first unit of the Project 23560) and the remaining destroyer of the Project 61/01090 (that can be replaced by the first unit of the Project 21956).

    Even building only one of them by 2025 the Russian fleet can improve becoming stronger.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:41 am

    eehnie wrote:
    For me the key with this project is to build the capability of construction of this ship by 2025. For it is necessary to have the first unit by 2025. The following units can have some delay without problem for Russia because the current Russian fleet is not old.

    And the same for the projects 23000E of aircraft carrier and 21956 of destroyer.

    .........

    23000E and 21956 are vaporware. Not even that, they are just concept art.

    Gorshkov frigate (and its enlarged variant if developed) will be go to platform for Russian Navy. As for aircraft carriers, they will be built only after Lider project is implemented first.

    My guess is that this delay is related to ODK getting those gas turbines up and running ahead of schedule. Lider project was moved up on priority list back when engine problems popped up, but now with that being sorted out they are moved to the back burner again.

    Makes sense, AA systems that Lider is expected to use are still in testing stage and naval version is still on the drawing board. And they would be smart to see how new reactors perform on icebreakers before committing. There is other stuff most likely.

    Whole thing will be easier to deal with if they can use off the shelf components instead of stuff that is still in development stage.

    Nobody wants another Redut hassle. Especially not on vessel like nuke powered destroyer.
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    Post  eehnie on Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:37 am

    PapaDragon wrote:23000E and 21956 are vaporware. Not even that, they are just concept art.

    Gorshkov frigate (and its enlarged variant if developed) will be go to platform for Russian Navy. As for aircraft carriers, they will be built only after Lider project is implemented first.

    My guess is that this delay is related to ODK getting those gas turbines up and running ahead of schedule. Lider project was moved up on priority list back when engine problems popped up, but now with that being sorted out they are moved to the back burner again.

    Makes sense, AA systems that Lider is expected to use are still in testing stage and naval version is still on the drawing board. And they would be smart to see how new reactors perform on icebreakers before committing. There is other stuff most likely.

    Whole thing will be easier to deal with if they can use off the shelf components instead of stuff that is still in development stage.

    Nobody wants another Redut hassle. Especially not on vessel like nuke powered destroyer.

    About Aircraft Carriers the last time I quoted for you the Maritime Doctrine 2015 of the Russian Federation, and still you continue consciently saying things that are not compatible with it, in a chapter as important as this.

    About the Project 21956, I think the project, or some update, are compatible with the Project 23560 Lider, and the frigates.

    To wait until to finnish the cruisers to begin with the aircraft carriers makes 0 sense from a point of management of the fleet and procurement of new units, and the same from a point of management of the ship building activity in the shipyards:

    1.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because later all become old at same time, and it creates budget tensions. The renovation of the fleet must be a continuous process that affords the procurement of ships of all the types at the same time in a rythm affordable and as constant as possible.
    2.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because you need multiple shipyards adapted to them, and it creates tensions in the industry (strong putual efforts). It is not right to design the shipyards to build first a Project 23560 ship of 15000 tons and later a Project 23000E ship of 100000 tons. Every type of ship (aircraft carrier, cruiser, detroyer, frigate,...) needs their own shipyards adapted to the size of the ships, and the shipyards must be used in a continuous process building ships of the same type (size) one after other. This is the way to avoid shipyards without work when there is not production of one type of ships, this is the way to avoid oversized shipyards, and this is the way to build not more shipyards than the minimum necessary.
    3.- It is not right to build all the ships of one type at the same time, because it creates tensions with the workers of the industry. A continuous process of renovation with a continuous work in the shipyards for every type of ship, allows to give to the workers of the shipyards a continous job in a stable place.

    There are key factors for the Russian gouvernment in order to decide what to do.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:43 pm

    Just because they may want to have something does not mean that they need it.

    India could invest loads of money and successfully design and build nuclear icebreaker. But what use would they have for it? Other than some basic scientific stuff none at all.

    Same applies for Russia and oversized aircraft carriers. For 10+ billion that the project construction would cost for just one unit (to say nothing of timetable) they could purchase entire new navy composed of vessels they have actual need for.

    They should build more than one type of ships but those types should be missile ships, corvettes, frigates and landing ships. Destroyers at later phase. Small carriers at much later one. That is it.

    Everything else is just waste of time and money on needless bling.
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    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:01 pm

    Russia’s advanced Lider-class destroyer to get nuclear propulsion unit

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/953690
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    Post  hoom on Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:22 am

    Pics of the Skvall model from IMDS http://foto-i-mir.ru/23560-squall-imds-2017/
    Don't think anything changed on it but there might be some new photo angles.
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    Post  eehnie on Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:24 pm

    The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:51 am

    eehnie wrote:The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.

    Say what!!

    Which shipyard????
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:43 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.

    Say what!!

    Which shipyard????

    I have not more information than the source. Surely will become public at the time of laid down.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:02 am

    eehnie wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.

    Say what!!

    Which shipyard????

    I have not more information than the source. Surely will become public at the time of laid down.

    you do realize that in order for the ship to be under construction it has to be laid down and there is no amount of evidence to support this.

    Chances are some guy made a mistake and you jumped on the bandwagon buy hey, I'll look forward to your reaction when you are proven wrong.
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    Post  eehnie on Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:19 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    eehnie wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:
    eehnie wrote:The first unit of the Project 23560 Lider Cruiser/Destroyer seems to be under constrution.

    http://russianships.info/eng/warships/project_23560.htm

    Named: Orlov-Chesmenskiy.

    At this point the Project 22350 seems designed to replace the current destroyers (with the Project 21956 of similar size, ruled out), the Project 23560 seems designed to replace the current cruisers and the Project 23000 seems the option in the cathegory of the aircraft carriers.

    Say what!!

    Which shipyard????

    I have not more information than the source. Surely will become public at the time of laid down.

    you do realize that in order for the ship to be under construction it has to be laid down and there is no amount of evidence to support this.

    Chances are some guy made a mistake and you jumped on the bandwagon buy hey, I'll look forward to your reaction when you are proven wrong.

    Good news for Russia = Bad news for Seig Soloyvov, we know.

    What you said is not right. Another option, is the people of the source have more information than us, something not rare taking into account the quality of their database.
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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:30 am

    The Lider class destroyer requiers the naval S-500,Pantsir-M and other weapon systems that are still in development therefor the first Lider class will likely only be operational in the early to mid 2020s however It would make sense for Russia to make a pilot ship in order to test systems and work out what problems need to be fixed before pressing the new ships into service.

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    Post  LMFS on Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:33 pm

    Fresh news Very Happy

    Russia to launch construction of nuclear-powered guided missile destroyer

    June 20, 18:06 UTC+3
    The construction may start after 2020

    KALININGRAD, June 20. /TASS/. Work on building a cutting-edge Lider-class destroyer for the Russian Navy may begin in 2020, Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief for Armament Viktor Bursuk said on Wednesday.

    "A preliminary design [of the destroyer] has been made. Following its results, we are now making the necessary decision and work on its technical design will begin shortly and the construction will start after 2020," Bursuk said.

    The project of the destroyer codenamed Lider is being worked out at the Severnoye Design Bureau in St. Petersburg. As Vice-President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation for Military Shipbuilding Igor Ponomaryov said earlier, Russia’s Defense Ministry has already approved the warship’s conceptual design.

    As was reported earlier, the future destroyer will displace from 10,000 to 15,000 tonnes. According to Bursuk, the Lider will get a nuclear-powered propulsion plant.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1010343
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    Post  Nibiru on Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:46 am

    I think the statement about being able to construct the Lider class after 2020 is released prematurely, i mean what is the purpose for announcing this to the public? To keep our hopes up? They shouldn't have done this unless they are absolutely sure that construction will commence in only a few years (5 years max). They cant even churn up production of Gorskov classes, what more a larger vessel like the Lider. I just wish people from the Rus Navy/ Defense imdustry would be realistic with their press releases.
    George1
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    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 9 Empty Re: Promising destroyer "Lider-class"

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:16 pm

    New destroyer: pause

    The author's version of the article published on 21.06.2018 in the newspaper "Vzglyad" (reference 1).

    In one of his recent interviews, the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), A. Rakhmanov, indirectly indicated the abandonment of construction for the Russian Navy of new combat surface ships of the ocean zone - the destroyers of project 23560 "Leader". In response to a question from the Izvestia correspondent about why they refused to build them, he replied: "All questions to the customer, if the Defense Ministry decides that it should start building [the Leader], we will take it up" (ref. 2 ). A skeptical reader might get the impression that the Military Department easily changes some ill-conceived decisions to others, while in fact no one thought of abandoning the construction of the destroyers of the new project.

    Promising destroyer "Lider-class" - Page 9 0_1681b9_d5218c41_orig

    In the initial plan for the activities of the Russian Defense Ministry for 2013-2020, concerning the equipping of modern weapons, military and special equipment, the new destroyer was listed in the section "Development of prospective models. Adopting the Arms: Beginning of Mass Production "(presumably meant laying of the head ship) with the date "until 30.12.2018" (reference 3).

    According to the annual reports of the Northern Design Bureau, the sketch design of the destroyer project 23560 began in April 2015 and by the end of the next year it was completed by 100% (ref. 4). The development of the technical project was planned to start in June 2016, but consideration of options for the draft project was delayed, and its approval was made approximately in July-August 2017 (ref. 5), after which a pause was made during the creation of the ship. That's right - a pause is made, and not a red light, for without the main ship of the ocean zone of a full-fledged Navy, Russia will not have (as there would be no army without a main tank, and aviation without a fighter gaining air control). Work on the destroyer project was suspended for at least two reasons.

    First frigates

    The first reason was the problems with the construction of frigates. Back in 2005, the "plan of the Navy command, supported by naval science, was consistently created: the first corvette, then the frigate, then the destroyer and then the aircraft carrier" (reference 6). If things are going on with the corvettes, albeit with a scratch, (series 20380/20385 is being built at two plants, four ships are actively operating in the Baltic and the North Sea, two of them were tested in distant waters), then the construction of frigates pr. 22350 was safely torn down by the construction factory (Northern shipyard) and the developer of the Polimen-Redut (Almaz-Antey) air defense system.

    As you know, the main ship of the Admiral Gorshkov series, the construction of which began more than 12 years ago, has not yet been transferred to the fleet. Three more ships are in completion and on the slipways, however, no new frigate has been laid since 2013 and, most likely, despite the announcement of the serial number of 22350 in six units (ref. Cool, there will be no more. Instead they are supposed to build an improved modification of "Gorshkov", which is called 22350M (although by the adopted five-digit system the index should be 22351 or something like that).

    Information about the new project is very small: it will have a larger displacement and is better armed. Perhaps the new frigate will even have an oceanic zone (mini destroyer) and, paradoxically, the first rank (according to available data, more than 5,000 tons of normal or standard displacement). It is not ruled out that the order for the 22350M series will be placed at two shipyards - North (St. Petersburg) and Yantar (Kaliningrad) (reference 9), which would be very good, as they are able to quickly build ships on the Yantar. In general, as it is insulting, in addition to nuclear and non-nuclear submarines, the LGP in 2018-2027 included mainly frigates and ships of the "coastal defense" (near sea zone), delaying the creation of the surface ocean component of the Navy for 7-10 years.

    The new slipway

    Another weighty reason for the suspension of work on the creation of a new destroyer was the lack of suitable construction sites. The main dimensions of prospect 23560 can only be guessed. The most reliable displacement is known from the former Deputy Minister of Defense for military-technical support Yury Borisov - 14,000 tons (ref. 11). With such a complete displacement, the main dimensions should be close to the following: the length is the largest 199 m, the width is the greatest 22.5 m, the sediment is an average of 6.8 m (obtained by substitution for the coefficients of the theoretical drawing commensurate with analogs, in particular - with missile cruisers 1164).

    Covered slips of Sevmash (Severodvinsk) are currently entirely occupied with nuclear submarine subjects (Borei, Yaseni, special purpose submarines), the shipbuilding complex Zvezda in the Far East is not yet ready, Kerch's Gulf has not yet restored its competences (and this will not happen soon), Yantar's production capabilities are limited by the dimensions of the transfer (docking) dock - up to 170 m, the St. Petersburg Baltiysky Zavod is densely occupied by nuclear icebreakers, the slipways of the operating shipyard of the Northern shipyard allow building orders with the same longest length as on "Yantar".

    At the very end of last year, a long-awaited contract was signed between the Northern Shipyard and Metrostroi for the construction of a slipway site (instead of the previously planned dry dock) with a two-spiral slip of 250x140 m with the completion of works in Q1. 2019 (Ref. 12). The active phase of the work was to begin in April this year. (ref. 13) and, judging by the published satellite images, it has already begun (ref. 14). A new boathouse in St. Petersburg, in which two amphibious assault helicopter carriers (UDK) (reference 15) are planned to be built for the first time, will be removed from the agenda, "where to build the" Leaders "?, But for the accelerated construction of a series for two fleets another shipyard, which, in an ideal, can be the SSK "Zvezda".

    23560: facts and guesses

    The estimated main dimensions of the new destroyer are given above. They are close to the dimensions of the unattractive externally conceptual project of the Krylov Scientific Center, the pagodal superstructure of which evokes associations with the Japanese battleships of the Second World War, but the tonnage displaced in the media (17,500 tons) is clearly overstated. Sounded by Yu Borisov, 14,000 tons fit well into the worldwide trend of increasing the displacement of the main surface ships of the ocean zone. The small-scale (so far small-series) "Zumvalt" weighs 16,000 tons, the Chinese Type 055 is about 12,000 tons, even the version of the brilliant Arlee Burke III (the best and most massive destroyer of our time) has come close to 10,000 tons.

    It is already known that from the two variants of the main power plant (gas turbine and nuclear) proposed by the customer to the customer, the nuclear power plant (reference 16) was chosen, which will allow the "Leaders" to feel comfortable both in distant solitary navigation (in peacetime) and in the structure of shipborne carrier-based and strike groups (led by the nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and TARKR pr. 11442M).

    The composition of the armament of project 23560 can only be judged on the concept design of the KGNC, but here, unlike the form of the superstructure, the fantasy of its authors, it is supposed, was nevertheless limited by the requirements of the Navy (let's call it the TTZ advance design). If so, according to the advertising materials presented at the "Army-2017", the "Leader" will carry about 200 UVP cells for various missiles (128 air defense and anti-missile systems, 64-72 CRBD, RCP and PLR), 130 mm AU (possibly even 152-mm - A.Sh.), two helicopters, etc. (reference 17).

    As for the new deadlines for the implementation of the program for the creation of a new destroyer, that is, information that its technical design (the main stage of the project development, during which the decisions taken in the draft project are confirmed and detailed) will begin after 2020, and the construction of the main ship - approximately in 2025 g (reference 15) (for an early update of the main naval staff of the Russian Navy, we would very much like to see the construction of two orders for SV simultaneously started and two at Zvezda).

    As to the seriality of the destroyers, prospect 23560, there are data that at first it was planned to order 12 ships (six for the SF and the Pacific Fleet), then this amount was reduced to eight units (four plus four) (ref. 18). In this connection it is necessary to emphasize that the seriality of destroyers is determined by the same criterion as the seriality of aircraft carriers (ref. 20), namely, the presence of two CAGs permanently on the BS (one of the SF and the other of the TF) and providing the projection of the force on any area of ​​the World Ocean.

    The number of destroyers in the CAG must be at least two if there are more, say, four large frigates in the 22350M. Four EMs on combat service means 12 in combat composition of the Navy (taking into account 4 in the readiness to change those who are on the BS, and 4 in the repair). Otherwise, there will be no permanent presence.

    Difficulties in classifying

    In conclusion, there is little semantics. A destroyer is a destroyer, that is, a destroyer. A destroyer capable of acting as part of a squadron (at sea and in combat). The destroyers appeared shortly before the Russo-Japanese War and were intended in particular to protect large warships from the attacks of torpedo boats, hence their original names - countermines or fighter jets. In other European languages, the second version is still used (English destroyer) and does not contradict common sense at all. In the Russian Navy, the term "fighter" was in motion for some time, but it did not take root - the destroyer was deemed more appropriate and euphonious.

    Everything was fine, as long as the main weapon of destroyers were mines, more precisely - self-propelled mines (torpedoes). However, with the adoption of KSSC cruise missiles and the launching of the destroyer "Bedovy" (1958) armed with them, the semantic dissonance was clearly apparent. In 1966, all the missile destroyers (pr.56M and 57bis) were reclassified to large missile ships (DBK), but in just 10 years a new series of destroyers was started ").

    With reference to the "Leader" with cruising displacement and a huge missile ammunition, the "destroyer" also completely hurts the rumor. Some justification in this case can serve as a reverent attitude of military seamen to the sea traditions. Well, or if the Navy Main Headquarters has decided to reserve a cruiser class for even larger ships than 23560, which sooner or later may be replaced by heavy nuclear missile cruisers 11442M Peter the Great and Admiral Nakhimov. ■

    P.S. A month after the interview of Rakhmanov, in which he allegedly "abandoned" the Leaders, "Deputy Admiral V. Bursuk, the deputy head of the Navy, announced that the construction of new destroyers would begin soon (after 2020) (reference 21, the design stage is a "spoiled phone").

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/195066.html

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