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    Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

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    George1
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Sun Jul 24, 2016 12:10 pm

    Russia Creating Cutting-Edge Universal Nuclear Battleship

    Russia’s Severnoye Design Bureau has started working on the Project 23560 Leader-class destroyer that will combine the features of a destroyer, large antisubmarine warship and guided missile cruiser.

    The ship will most likely be nuclear powered. It will be capable of spending up to 90 days offshore without additional refueling or support.

    “The Leader will be a universal ship, triple-hatted as a destroyer, large ASW ship and guided missile cruiser while being smaller than Project 1144 ships and carrying far more weaponry,” news publication The Defence Talk reported Valeriy Polovinki, advisor to the director general of the Krylov State Research Center that worked out the destroyer’s preliminary design military, as saying.

    He further said that the self-contained operation of such ships is usually based on their stock of provisions and their nuclear propulsion plants can go on without refueling for years.

    The Leader-class destroyers are expected to be equipped with Kalibr-NK cruise missiles and S-500 air defense systems.

    As exhibited by its mockup, the destroyer will be 200 meters long and 20 meters wide. It will be able to travel at a maximum speed of 32 knots.

    The multipurpose warship will have anti-aircraft, anti-ballistic missile, anti-surface and anti-submarine capabilities.

    It is meant to replace the Sovremennyy-class destroyers, the main anti-surface warships of the Russian Navy, as well as the Slava-class cruisers and the Udaloy I class anti-submarine destroyers.

    It will further be equipped with P-800 Oniks supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles with a range of more than 300 kilometers. The Zircon hypersonic missiles could also be added to the arsenal.

    The next-generation warship will also have a landing pad for two Kamov Ka-27 or Kamov Ka-32 helicopters.

    The vertical launch systems (VLS) of the Poliment-Redut system will handle short-range aerial threats. The VLS will be controlled by the Poliment active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system. The Leader may carry two modules of the navalized version of the Pantsir-M SAM/gun system.

    “Finally the Leader will also get a 130-mm A-192 versatile gun. Overall, the destroyer’s weapons arsenal will include a total of 200 missiles,” Izvestia reported.

    “Nuclear-powered cruisers that have the self-sustained operating capability and formidable weaponry can operate anywhere in the world. The Russian Navy has not ordered ships like that since 1989, which means that the country has regained geopolitical interests in remote corners of the world,” Russian news publication Izvestia reported former Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Admiral Igor Kasatonov as saying.

    Valery Polovinkin, advisor to the director general of the Krylov State Research Center which worked out the destroyer’s preliminary design, says the sophisticated ship will combine the best of several types of surface combatants at once.

    Its antimissile and space defense capabilities will serve as a “kind of strong point in the ocean.”

    Naval arms expert Alexander Mozgovoi told the publication that the final design of the Leader and its weapons arsenal may evolve considerably as the engineering design is being worked out.

    Metal for the new warship is set to be cut in the beginning of 2018, according to the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC). A series of eight destroyers is planned to be build.

    According to the expert, such a large-scale program was chosen due to the exclusive problem with the Russian Navy’s import substitution, the lack of a domestic manufacturer of gas-turbine propulsion plants.

    “On the other hand, nuclear ones are in production in this country, the success of the nuclear-powered icebreaker construction program being a good case in point. The Kalibr-armed Project 21631 ships, which received raving reports during the Syrian campaign, have short legs, with their endurance being within 30 days – approximately as long as it takes them to cruise from Murmansk to Gibraltar. Nuclear-powered destroyers have a virtually unlimited range,” The Defence Talk reported Mozgovoi as saying.

    The ship will displace about 17,500 tons, which will make it close enough to Project 1144 Orlan-class heavy missile cruisers in terms of dimensions.

    According to Igor Kasatonov, the development of such a destroyer ship implies certain geopolitical interests of Russia’s leadership, Izvestia reported.

    http://sputniknews.com/military/20160723/1043533409/russia-nuclear-battleship.html


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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:43 am

    Russian Navy Plans Eight New Missile Cruisers

    The Russian Navy is preparing a contract with the nation’s largest shipbuilder for eight new nuclear-powered missile cruisers.

    According to local media, United Shipbuilding Corporation Deputy President Igor Ponomarev says the contract is currently under review. The construction of the first vessel is expected to commence in early 2018.

    The new missile cruisers will be designed by the Severnoye Design Bureau in St. Petersburg and are expected to have a deadweight of 17,500 tons, a length of 200 meters (650 feet0 and to be equipped with more than 200 missiles including a version of the S-500, the newest and most lethal Russian missile system.

    These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

    Pravda reports former deputy commander of the navy, Admiral Igor Kasatonov, saying: “Nuclear-powered cruisers are autonomous and well-armed. They can face various challenges in any part of the world ocean. The Russian Navy has not placed orders for vessels of this class since 1989. The decision to build several ships means that Russia pursues geopolitical interests to maintain its presence in remote parts of the world.”


    http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/russian-navy-plans-eight-new-missile-cruisers

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:56 pm

    It is very positive for the Russian Navy to open the line of production of this new project as soon as possible. It engages very well with the strategy that can be expected for the Russian Navy.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:20 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

    These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

    ..........

    If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Zivo on Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:04 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

    These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

    ..........

    If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

    They use the same BS when describing the T-14. It's "comparable" with 1980's western designs, even though the specs, and a little basic common sense paint a completely different picture.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  kvs on Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:18 am

    Zivo wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:[........

    These weapons are expected to make the vessels comparable with U.S. Navy’s Arleigh Burke class destroyers. Cruisers are fitted with sophisticated modern guided-missile systems that can take out virtually any target in the air, the sea, beneath the waves or on the shore. Destroyers have similar guided-missile capabilities and take part in a wide range of missions, including supporting carrier and expeditionary strike groups and surface strike groups.

    ..........

    If that data is accurate they will be lot more dangerous than Burkes.

    They use the same BS when describing the T-14. It's "comparable" with 1980's western designs, even though the specs, and a little basic common sense paint a completely different picture.

    The propaganda is utterly inane. The Arleigh Burke displaces 9800 tons whereas the Lider is supposed to be 17500 tons.
    Russia packs more missile punch into its ships than anything from Uncle Scam. It is physically impossible for the Lider to
    have similar firepower levels to the Burke. It will have at least twice the firepower.

    For f*ck's sake the US does not even have any hypersonic anti-ship missiles. It started testing prototypes in 2010:

    http://osnetdaily.com/2016/03/hypersonic-arms-race-ahead/

    Of course, because the US announces a missile system then it will surely be number one in the world even though Russia has
    had decades more experience with such system.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  franco on Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:00 am

    Construction of the first Lider should begin in 2019;

    http://en.ria.ru/russia/20160728/1043701723/russia-navy-ship-lider.html

    GarryB
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:01 am

    I think it is clever of them to not make a 30K ton heavy cruiser type that they might make four of and perhaps make 4 anti ship destroyers and 4 anti sub destroyers.

    Instead they are making 8 ships that are anti ship destroyers and anti sub destroyers and are cruisers too.

    Together with 15-20 Gorshkov type ships they should have a tight navy.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  TheRealist on Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:11 pm

    I think the reason for moving the start of construction for the "Lider" to 2019 is to synchronize it with the completion of Phase 1 (2016-2017 and 2016-2019) of the expansion and modernization of the Severnaya Shipyard as stated in these Portnews article:

    Portnews

    Investment programme of USC provides for construction of a dry dock to build vessels of up to 250 meters in length and up to 73 meters in breadth from 2017 (phase 1).

    Portnews

    The project to be financed through the Federal Targeted Programme will be implemented in four phases.

    The first phase (2016 - 2017) provides for reconstruction of the western embankment and construction of new utilities. Investments into this phase are estimated at some RUB 2 bln.

    The second phase (2016 - 2019) implies the construction of the dry dock’s phase 1 with a dock area, covered slip, new painting chambers and installation of Goliath-type crane of 1,200 t in capacity and two cranes of 350 t in capacity. Investments – about RUB 14 bln. State expert approval of this phase is scheduled for spring 2016.

    The third phase (2019 – 2021) will include the construction of a new hull plating shop, metal storage facility and a logistics complex. Investments will total some RUB 15 bln.

    The fourth phase (2022 – 2024) is foreseen for extension of the dry dock, construction of a new two-way slip and reconstruction of the outfitting quay. Investments will be estimated upon completion of the project documents.

    Project Canada
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Project Canada on Tue Sep 06, 2016 8:48 pm



    The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will develop in 2017

    The technical design of the destroyer "Leader" will develop in 2017
    Preliminary design of prospective destroyer "Leader" is completed, the results are discussed. Development of technical project could begin in 2017
    September 6, 2016, 9:52

    Preliminary design of prospective destroyer "Leader" is completed, the results are discussed. Development of the technical project may begin as early as 2017. This was stated by the Vice-President of "United Shipbuilding Corporation" in military shipbuilding Igor Ponomarev, reports RIA Novosti .

    Creation of the project, he said, will be launched in accordance with the task of the state defense order, after considering and discussing the outcome of the schematic design. Ponomarev expressed the hope that it will happen in 2017.

    The difference between the sketch and technical project consists in the fact that the first contains the basic decisions that give a general idea about the structure of the proposed facility, and in the second - the final decision, giving a complete picture of the device, which can already be used for the production of design documentation.

    On the development in Russia of a new large area of ​​ocean ship under the code "Leader" became known in the early 2010s. Officially, he is still referred to as the destroyer, though experts analyzing the likely size of the ship and claimed armament confidently call it a missile cruiser.

    As previously reported, in October 2014, the Russian Navy plans to order 12 such ships - six for the Northern and Pacific fleets. Sources in the defense industry reported that the laying of the "Leader" is scheduled for 2017. First, however, according to knowledgeable people, the lead ship is unlikely to be handed over to the Navy before 2023-2025 years.

    Displacement "Leader", according to sources in the industry, will be from 10 to 15 thousand tons. The armament will include anti-aircraft missiles prospective S-500 (with the possibility of defeat ballistic targets in near space purposes) and standard shock weapons complexes "Caliber" and "Onyx".

    https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/tekhnicheskii-proekt-esminca-lider-nachnut-razrabativat-v-2017-godu/

    Project Canada
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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Project Canada on Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:49 pm



    Ministry of Defense has decided to order eight nuclear destroyers "Leader"

    Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017

    Russia's Defense Ministry plans to order eight nuclear destroyers like "Leader", the construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in 2018. This was announced today Tass source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to him, the Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017, after which the Defense Ministry will sign a contract with the United Shipbuilding Corporation to build a series of ships of this type.

    "Construction of the head of" Leader "is due to start in early 2018 and be completed by the end of 2022, that is, it will last for five years," - a spokesman said.

    "It was originally supposed to build for the Navy a series of 12 destroyers, then this number has been reduced to eight units - four for the Northern and Pacific fleets. On the other fleets - the Baltic and the Black Sea - the destroyers" Leader "service to bear will not be," - said the source.

    He said that the "leader" were armed with missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx", anti-aircraft missile systems S-500 "Prometheus" and "Poliment-Redoute" (currently being tested at the head frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov"), and and rocket-gun complex "Carapace-M".

    https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/minoboroni-reshilo-zakazat-vosem-atomnikh-esmincev-lider/

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:35 pm

    Project Canada wrote:

    Ministry of Defense has decided to order eight nuclear destroyers "Leader"

    Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017

    Russia's Defense Ministry plans to order eight nuclear destroyers like "Leader", the construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in 2018. This was announced today  Tass  source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to him, the Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017, after which the Defense Ministry will sign a contract with the United Shipbuilding Corporation to build a series of ships of this type.

    "Construction of the head of" Leader "is due to start in early 2018 and be completed by the end of 2022, that is, it will last for five years," - a spokesman said.

    "It was originally supposed to build for the Navy a series of 12 destroyers, then this number has been reduced to eight units - four for the Northern and Pacific fleets. On the other fleets - the Baltic and the Black Sea - the destroyers" Leader "service to bear will not be," - said the source.

    He said that the "leader" were armed with missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx", anti-aircraft missile systems S-500 "Prometheus" and "Poliment-Redoute" (currently being tested at the head frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov"), and and rocket-gun complex "Carapace-M".

    https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/minoboroni-reshilo-zakazat-vosem-atomnikh-esmincev-lider/

    No Paket??

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:58 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:...............

    No Paket??

    It's a freakin destroyer. It will have torpedoes no problem.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:01 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    AlfaT8 wrote:...............

    No Paket??

    It's a freakin destroyer. It will have torpedoes no problem.

    But Paket is also an anti-torpedo interceptor.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:33 am

    four for the Northern and Pacific fleets. On the other fleets - the Baltic and the Black Sea - the destroyers" Leader "service to bear will not be,"
    Hmm, I'd kind of assumed they'd give BSF & Baltic 1 each to be Slava class replacement Flagship & S-500 umbrella Sad

    On the other hand, its certainly the Northern & Pacific which have the main need of big long range ships, while Baltic & BSF will be mainly operating in cover of land based AA so there is solid logic.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:29 am

    Project Canada wrote:

    Ministry of Defense has decided to order eight nuclear destroyers "Leader"

    Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017

    Russia's Defense Ministry plans to order eight nuclear destroyers like "Leader", the construction of the first ship is scheduled to begin in 2018. This was announced today  Tass  source in the military-industrial complex.

    According to him, the Northern Design Bureau should complete the creation of the technical design of the destroyer in the fourth quarter of 2017, after which the Defense Ministry will sign a contract with the United Shipbuilding Corporation to build a series of ships of this type.

    "Construction of the head of" Leader "is due to start in early 2018 and be completed by the end of 2022, that is, it will last for five years," - a spokesman said.

    "It was originally supposed to build for the Navy a series of 12 destroyers, then this number has been reduced to eight units - four for the Northern and Pacific fleets. On the other fleets - the Baltic and the Black Sea - the destroyers" Leader "service to bear will not be," - said the source.

    He said that the "leader" were armed with missiles "Caliber" and "Onyx", anti-aircraft missile systems S-500 "Prometheus" and "Poliment-Redoute" (currently being tested at the head frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Gorshkov"), and and rocket-gun complex "Carapace-M".

    https://defence.ru/mashino-stroenie/minoboroni-reshilo-zakazat-vosem-atomnikh-esmincev-lider/

    Good news for Russia. The timeline of the units after the first can be variable, surely is for after 2025. Not a problem.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  Isos on Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:53 pm

    http://www.deagel.com/Destroyers-and-Cruisers/Project-21956_a002084001.aspx
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/ddg-newcon.htm
    Is it possible that they build some of these with Liders?

    It's a 163m destroyer, 9000 tons class, supposed to replace Udaloys. Much cheaper than Liders and they need to replace their Udaloys which haven't true anti ship missiles and long range air defence capabilities. Some thought that was a possible Lider design but in fact it was designed in 2007. Lider is suppoed to be much bigger.



    I don't know if it's true but they are saying kh-101 missile can be lunched by S-400F lunchers. Could be a nice thing as it has 6*8=48 lunchers for 48N6 (150-200km) or 6*8*4=192 with 9M96 (40-120 km). Very good for big area air defence or fleet air defence.

    So 3*8*4=96 9M96 + 3*8=24 Kh-101 + 16 UKSK (Kalibr) for attack operations isn't bad at all. It could have done what the three epardand buyan did ini syria and would still have more power than any actual russian ship after the attack.

    An other question, is it better to have more destroyers or less but more armed and nuclear powered big cruiser ?

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  eehnie on Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:57 pm

    It is possible to see both. One as Cruiser and the other as Destroyer. If I'm not wrong it was a plan to build around 10 of them.

    Interesting project.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:49 am

    i think project 21956 is dead. What the purpose of building to such ships since leader will be universal design (cruiser, destroyer, large ASW ship)


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:33 am

    Kh-101/102 wont be compatible with launchers for S-400 in any form.

    It should be compatible with UKSK launchers but not S-300 or S-400 launchers.


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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  marat on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:02 pm

    George1 wrote:i think project 21956 is dead. What the purpose of building to such ships since leader will be universal design (cruiser, destroyer, large ASW ship)

    Leader will be extremely expensive.
    I would like to see those ships in service,.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:08 pm

    marat wrote:
    George1 wrote:i think project 21956 is dead. What the purpose of building to such ships since leader will be universal design (cruiser, destroyer, large ASW ship)

    Leader will be extremely expensive.
    I would like to  see those ships in service,.


    Honestly, I am fairly certain that Lider class will be completed without too much hassle if nuclear icebreakers are anything to go by.

    Size is similar, they use same nuclear reactors and vast majority of equipment and weaponry is either off the shelf stuff or will be by the time they are to be installed.

    I am very optimistic about this class despite the size. There are not many unknowns in this equation.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 02, 2016 9:41 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:
    George1 wrote:i think project 21956 is dead. What the purpose of building to such ships since leader will be universal design (cruiser, destroyer, large ASW ship)

    Leader will be extremely expensive.
    I would like to  see those ships in service,.


    Honestly, I am fairly certain that Lider class will be completed without too much hassle if nuclear icebreakers are anything to go by.

    Size is similar, they use same nuclear reactors and vast majority of equipment and weaponry is either off the shelf stuff or will be by the time they are to be installed.

    I am very optimistic about this class despite the size. There are not many unknowns in this equation.

    In other words Russia has the capacity to produce these ships. All the yammering is agenda-driven BS to make Russia look like some 3rd world
    toilet. There really is way too much fantasy projection from all over the place by Russia haters.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 02, 2016 10:28 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:
    George1 wrote:i think project 21956 is dead. What the purpose of building to such ships since leader will be universal design (cruiser, destroyer, large ASW ship)

    Leader will be extremely expensive.
    I would like to  see those ships in service,.


    Honestly, I am fairly certain that Lider class will be completed without too much hassle if nuclear icebreakers are anything to go by.

    Size is similar, they use same nuclear reactors and vast majority of equipment and weaponry is either off the shelf stuff or will be by the time they are to be installed.

    I am very optimistic about this class despite the size. There are not many unknowns in this equation.

    To be fair A nuclear ice breaker and a destroyer of that size are totally different ships. It's a bit much to say since they can build an ice breaker fast they can build a warship of that size has fast. When they actually start building it we will see which at this rate wont be until 2020 at the earliest.

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    Re: Promising destroyer / NIR Leader:

    Post  hoom on Mon Oct 03, 2016 4:11 am

    Honestly, I am fairly certain that Lider class will be completed without too much hassle if nuclear icebreakers are anything to go by.

    Size is similar, they use same nuclear reactors and vast majority of equipment and weaponry is either off the shelf stuff or will be by the time they are to be installed.
    I think the big question is if they can get a decent Radar/AA Missile system up & working properly given the amount of difficulty they've had with doing much smaller ones.

    Presumably Concern-Agat stuff would be a big factor http://nortwolf-sam.livejournal.com/1449376.html

    But there is a big difference between some nice CGI & an actual functional integrated system to do justice to such a large & powerful ship.

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