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    New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

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    GarryB
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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:21 am

    1st, well if its launched a reasonable distance inside Russia, I cant see how its likely to be intercepted in the boost phase, if solid fuel rockets cant be intercepted.

    What they are talking about is the early period of the Rockets flight when it is most vulnerable.

    During the boost phase even the cheapest crappiest IR sensor can detect that enormous plume of fire coming out the rear of the missile... all the warheads are together and the decoys have not been deployed so for 500 warheads... lets assume about 80 rockets where some have three warheads and some have 10. This means an ABM system in Alaska has to intercept 500 real warheads and thousands and thousands of decoys. A system in Europe however has to intercept about 80 rockets.

    Solid fuelled rockets burn out quicker so they are not blinding targets for as long as a liquid fuelled rocket.

    They are also less powerful than liquid rockets.

    (BTW yes, I know liquid fuel rockets have a longer boost stage, but on current technology, I still cant see the US hitting a missile 1200 km inside Russia in boost phase).

    Due to the rotation of the earth the Russian rockets don't go over the north pole, for targets on the US east coast their trajectory would actually take them over northern europe.

    The George Bush jnr plan was enormous interceptors that would have intercepted ICBMs well above Europe.

    The current plan is ship based so a group of AEGIS class cruisers in the North Sea and Arctic ocean could be positioned to stop Russian ICBMs easily... the positioning of them will be easy... not the interception itself.

    The point is that the radars in Europe should give them the early warning and precise trajectory information they would need for the interception attempts...

    2nd, does it have to be silo launched and not vehicle launched?

    Silos are already built and are actually much cheaper to use than mobile systems that require far more security.

    The only real threat to a silo is an ICBM/SLBM or B-2 and there should be enough warning for the silo to be empty by the time the silo is taken out.

    3rd could it be a hybrid missile eg some stages liquid, others solid fuel?

    Why?

    Solid fuel is expensive, modern liquid fuels are storable for the operational life of the missile and more powerful than current Russian solid fuels. They also offer the flexibility in being shut down and restarted so depressed trajectories can be implemented.

    Finally, once again I wonder, why the hell does Russia spend billions on negotiating the US nonsense. Wouldnt it make sense to base shorter range missiles in Cuba, Venezuela and friendly West Indian states too?

    Being an @$$hole to an @$$hole is self defeating... let them play their stupid games and let them think it makes them safer. The secret is to work out counters that will render their expensive white elephants useless without costing Russia too much.

    Having a heavy weight ICBM with a 5 ton throw weight means it can be loaded with heavier warheads now but in the future if START changes or is ripped up they can load lighter smaller warheads in much larger numbers so they can rapidly increase warhead numbers without having to spend money on more missiles. In the mean time the extra space can be used for decoys and penetration aides.


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:34 am

    Firebird wrote:Some of the reporting it that article is a bit baffling to me.
    1st, well if its launched a reasonable distance inside Russia, I cant see how its likely to be intercepted in the boost phase, if solid fuel rockets cant be intercepted.

    Everything can be intercepted in boost phase if you are near enough. I think thats the reason Russian mind only placing ABM in Norway and around countries not so much in countries like Poland and Romania. Well no matter boost phase or not, encirclement is obvious.

    Firebird wrote:(BTW yes, I know liquid fuel rockets have a longer boost stage, but on current technology, I still cant see the US hitting a missile 1200 km inside Russia in boost phase).

    What about midcourse.

    Firebird wrote:2nd, does it have to be silo launched and not vehicle launched?

    100 ton missile is not you can drive around easily.

    Firebird wrote:3rd could it be a hybrid missile eg some stages liquid, others solid fuel?

    Bulava, Yars and I think even Topol-M perhaps have its third stage liquid.


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:05 am

    Bulava, Yars and I think even Topol-M perhaps have its third stage liquid.

    Not true.

    Most ICBMs have their warhead bus fuelled by liquid propelents because they use manouvering thrusters, that depending on the accuracy of the launch might require a little adjustment of course or a lot.

    Very simply if you want solid fuel then all three stages should be solid fuel because all three stages are to get the warhead bus moving towards the target at a speed and direction that will get it close.

    The job of the warhead bus is then to manouver to release a warhead... so say we are talking about a four warhead MIRV bus, that means the warhead bus has four warheads sitting in it. Once the third stage has burned up and fallen away the warhead bus tries to work out where it is in 3D space and where its first target is. The warhead bus will then activate its thrusters to manouver itself so it is flying directly on an impact course for the first target and then it will release a warhead. That use of fuel and release of warhead will make the warhead bus lighter so when it burns fuel to manouver to line up the second target it will need to use less fuel to manouver. It will then release the second warhead towards the second target, which again will reduce further the weight of the warhead bus so much smaller bursts of thrust from the manouvering thrusters will be needed to adjust the course of the bus to aim at the third target and the release of the third warhead. The warhead bus is now much lighter with the release of three warheads and the fuel burned to deliver them to their targets, so the thrusters can be used for much shorter bursts to manouver the bus onto the last target... the release of this warhead is interesting... because if I was designing the system I would design it so the last warhead was facing backwards and for the last target I would make the warhead bus flip over and release the last warhead and then use the remaining fuel in the warhead bus to accelerate the now empty warhead bus down towards the target... it would have more mass than most decoys and would be something else the potential defence system would have to decide how to deal with.

    It would certainly be heavier and more substantial than a decoy and could contain a nuclear device too so I suspect the defenders would need to attempt to deal with it the same way they would a real warhead... which introduces doubt in their minds and could distract them for a useful time...

    Of course MARV is a much better solution.

    Obviously in a real world example it will be dumping decoys etc, but for the purposes of understanding why the warhead bus uses liquid rather than solid fuel is hopefully pretty clear.

    Trying to do the same with solid rocket fuel would involve lots of little rocket thrusters like the Dragon ATGM, but they would all need to be aligned to the centre of gravity of the warhead or it will start the bus spinning when fired...

    Note new Russian MARV warheads have their own guidance and manouver capability so they are all ejected as soon as the 3rd stage burns out along with the decoys. This means that the warheads can actually hit much more widely separated targets that are further from the path of the missile and also accuracy is improved as the warheads simply fall from a warhead bus, while MARVed warheads can follow specific paths all the way down to the target and can correct minor errors all the way to impact... for a MIRV any small errors increase over time and can be quite large by the time they get to the target area.

    It also means that once the third stage is burned out the decoys and warheads are deployed so there is no single warhead bus to target... you have to deal with all the warheads and the decoys.


    Last edited by GarryB on Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : For clarity)


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Viktor on Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:34 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Not true.

    Most ICBMs have their warhead bus fuelled by liquid propelents because they use manouvering thrusters, that depending on the accuracy of the launch might require a little adjustment of course or a lot.

    Very simply if you want solid fuel then all three stages should be solid fuel because all three stages are to get the warhead bus moving towards the target at a speed and direction that will get it close.


    Bulava 2 solid and 1 liquid stage.


    Number of stages - 3 (two solid boosters and a liquid upper stage)

    http://www.russianspaceweb.com/bulava.html


    I thought perhaps even Yars may have it as it is little unclear was it Topol-M or Bulava modification.

    Just by shutting and reigniting its engines or by increasing or decreasing trust on its third stage (as solid boosters can not do that)

    missile trajectory will change considerably making calculations in missile interception more complicated and unpredictable and

    interception less likely.



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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:19 pm

    My mistake... Apologies... Embarassed


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  TheRealist on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:06 am

    Funny Bias report on Russia's new missile. Laughing

    http://blog.heritage.org/2012/09/13/russia-to-create-son-of-satan-missile/

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:38 am

    Hehehehehehe...

    My reply:

    The real threats to US security that this proposed missile defence system deals with are?

    This new Russian missile is a reaction to US persistence with missile defence systems in Europe.

    The Russians have only asked for a written guarantee that the US ABM system in Europe will not be used against them.

    Russia is not being unreasonable in not believing verbal promises from the current US administration, after all their believing promises from Bush Snr and Baker that NATO would not expand, that former Soviet countries would not become part of NATO, that no NATO troops would be stationed in eastern europe... lots of promises and after a change of leadership the new regime never felt obliged to adhere to the previous administrations promises... what has changed?

    BTW with Mitt Romney stating that Russia is the USs number one foe, and McCain saying very similar things the last election cycle is Russia being reasonable in not trusting the US. Just one election away from changing policy.

    BTW Satan is to be replaced in Russian service because many of its components are Ukrainian. Perhaps if US ICBMs were produced in Canada and the two countries had a falling out then you might understand that building a new missile to replace the old one might make sense.


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  TheRealist on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:15 am

    I'm a bit new on Russian ICBM development but is Russia still relying on Ukrainian components?

    Plus I was reading an article about 4 months ago saying that the Votkinsk plant is unable to produce sufficient amount of missiles because it was outdated and the employees are old and are about to retire. I have to ask if this is the case in the Votkinsk plant?

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  TR1 on Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:42 am

    I thought this was more of a UR-100 replacement, and as such is much smaller than "Satan"?

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:45 am

    I'm a bit new on Russian ICBM development but is Russia still relying on Ukrainian components?

    Soviet missiles have components from a variety of former soviet republics as is the case of the SS-18, which has quite a few Ukrainian components.

    The purpose of the new missile is to build a new all Russian missile with no foreign components at all.

    Currently the main US satellite launch vehicle uses Russian rocket motors because they are the best... and are cheaper than they could possibly make them in the US.

    There is no point in spending money to develop all Russian components to replace the Ukrainian components... the new missile they are talking about will weigh 100 tons, which is lighter than the SS-18 which weighed in at about 210 tons, and had a throw weight of about 8 tons to orbit. As a comparison the US Peacekeeper weighed about 97 tons and was a solid fuel rocket and a throw weight of 4 tons. This new missile will be about 7 tons heavier than the American missile and less than half the weight of the SS-18, but with 5 tons throw weight have more than half the throw weight of the SS-18 and a ton more than the US missile.

    Plus I was reading an article about 4 months ago saying that the Votkinsk plant is unable to produce sufficient amount of missiles because it was outdated and the employees are old and are about to retire. I have to ask if this is the case in the Votkinsk plant?

    Not really a huge surprise... considering they have not produced missiles for some time. Now that they have a missile to design and build the extra funding will lead to new machine tools and new workers that actually get to produce something new instead of looking at improvements in maintainence and extending the life span of existing missile types.

    I thought this was more of a UR-100 replacement, and as such is much smaller than "Satan"?

    Improvements in nuclear warhead technology and also accuracy should result in a comparable "payload" to the older SS-18 missile. Peacekeeper is considered a heavyweight ICBM and its throwweight is 4 tons, so at 5 tons this new missile is definitely a heavyweight missile. (note in ICBM terms it is the throw weight, or the weight the missile can deliver to earth orbit, that determines the weight class of the missile, not its actual weight).

    In a way however it pretty much will be replacing the SS-18 and SS-19 in service.

    It is pretty clear that it is a reaction to the US ABM system in Europe and Asia and elsewhere. Having such a missile with such a large payload capacity means you can load it up with 5 warheads and enormous amounts of decoys and jammers and penetration aides. If the US is serious about continuing then it makes it much easier and cheaper to react by withdrawing from the new start treaty... you can just put 20 small warheads in each missile and over night enable your force to remain a challenge for any defence.


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  TheRealist on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:33 pm

    I was reading in Voice of Russia that the Votkinsk plant is undergoing expansion with new facilities. Correct me if I am wrong? Just curious.

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:40 pm

    I suspect it would be almost guaranteed now that they will be making this new missile... Smile


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Sujoy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:48 pm

    US missile defense shield flawed – classified studies

    http://rt.com/usa/news/us-missile-defense-flaws-811/

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:50 pm

    It will be ready by 2018 with various testing starting next year.

    Missile will replace SS-18

    The latest liquid-fuel ICBMs will create "a body" in 2014

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:36 pm

    Powerful thing to do. US will bleed to death while pouring money in endless pit called ABM. 

    Russia to Adopt New ICBM Targeting System by 2020

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    New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:52 am

    So the new heavy Russian ICBM has its name and some brutal specifications. 

    - better than Satan on raw performance but with new tips and tricks


    Rocket "Sarmatian" will put into service in 2018-2020 years

    This is the missile that will replace SATAN SS-18. 

    These missiles will feature high combat power and readiness of equipment used in providing the required complex command and control system reliability, ensuring the possibility of implementing a wide range of paths and directions of the missile; significant opportunities integrated application of new specialized tools and ways to overcome missile defense

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:01 pm

    Russian Missile Forces to Field New Heavy Missile by 2020 – Commander

    Russia’s Strategic Missile Force will deploy a new heavy intercontinental ballistic missile no later than 2020, its commander said on Tuesday.
    “We are counting on introducing into the armory by 2018-2020 at the outside a new missile system with specifications not inferior to its predecessor,” Lt. Gen. Sergei Karakaev said.

    The new silo-based Sarmat ICBM will replace the world’s most powerful nuclear missile, the twenty-five-year-old R-36M2 (SS-18 Satan).
    Sarmat is expected to feature advanced countermeasures to enable it to penetrate missile defenses including a complex command and control system and a high degree of maneuverability, he said.
    The new system is just one of a number that will totally replace Soviet-era missiles by 2021, he said.
    “New hardware is arriving on time and by 2018 more than 80 percent of Russia’s strategic missile force will be comprised of the latest weapons,” Karakaev said.

    By 2018, Russian nuclear forces will be limited to 1,550 warheads and 700 total deployed strategic nuclear delivery systems including long-range missiles and bombers as part of the New START treaty signed with the United States in 2011.

    Karakaev called that number “necessary and sufficient” to maintain strategic nuclear parity with the US and other nuclear states.
    Commenting on the United States’ nuclear arsenal, Karakaev claimed “their reduction in numbers is compensated for by upgrades of their missiles and the delivery systems of the entire strategic triad, giving them new technological capabilities.”

    The new missiles are part of a $700 billion procurement plan for the Russian Armed Forces in the period to 2020.


    http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20131217/185648744/Russian-Missile-Forces-to-Field-New-Heavy-Missile-by-2020-.html

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Austin on Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:46 am

    Russian Strategic Rocket Forces: Prospects


    Russian Strategic Missile Command expects that by the year 2018-2020 will be completed development work on the "Sarmatian" associated with the development of a new heavy liquid ICBM, said Feb. 25 at a press conference in "Interfax", the former Chief of Staff of the Strategic Missile Forces, Colonel-General Viktor Esin. New missiles will be replaced in two divisions standing on alert ICBM RS-20V "Governor." 

    In turn, the former head of the 4th Central Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense of Russia Vladimir Vasilenko indicated that the development in Russia of a new heavy liquid ICBM will deter U.S. plans to deploy a global missile defense system. That heavy silo-based ICBMs, he said, "gives you the opportunity to deliver the warheads to targets not only energetically optimal trajectories with hard azimuths of approach warheads to targets, therefore, with the predicted azimuths of approach, but also deliver warheads and strikes from different directions including shipping units via the South Pole. " 

    In addition, a huge stock of useful payload to heavy ICBM allows equip its various means to overcome missile defense, which ultimately will "oversaturate" any missile defense system. 

    Heavy ICBMs at equipping its precision warheads with conventional warheads would be an adequate response to the implementation of the constraint in the United States announced the concept of global instant impact by conventional means Another priority of the Strategic Missile Forces, as said Victor Esin, - completion of work this year complex "yars" and its modifications - the SS-26. 

    The third priority - creating long-term combat equipment, which will be able to overcome existing and future missile defense system. 

    Speaking about the place RVSN Russian nuclear triad, Esin noted that they accounted for 60 percent of carriers and more than 50 percent of nuclear weapons. The costs for the maintenance and development of the Strategic Missile Forces do not exceed 5 percent of the total expenditure on national defense. 

    According to him, Russia is not being developed bottom of intercontinental ballistic missiles. They were banned Soviet-American agreements still in the 1980s. 

    However, in Russia are conducted development work on the creation of combat rail missile systems designed to launch an ICBM. Viktor Esin recognized that the development of such systems, there are several obstacles. Thus, in Russia there is no technical experience in this field, as in Soviet times they were created in Ukraine. Second, lost all the infrastructure that was created in Soviet times, and recreating it is necessary to invest huge amounts of money.

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:03 am

    Esin: doubt is there, but we look forward to the implementation of development plans, the Strategic Missile Forces

    http://vpk.name/news/106043_esin_somneniya_est_no_myi_nadeemsya_na_realizaciyu_planov_razvitiya_rvsn.html


    What is the advantage of South Pole launch they are talking about ?

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:49 am

    The earth is round. Draw a line between two points and that line can either be a line curved around the earth the shortest distance between the two points or you can continue that line completely around the world between the two points. One is shorter than the other but once the warheads are in orbit then range is no longer an issue.

    In other words instead of firing missiles over the north pole from Russia to the US, you can fire them south on the opposite trajectory over the south pole and up over south and central america to attack north america from the south... where no long range radar cover...

    A bit like the FOB system... or fractional orbital bombardment system... put a bomb in orbit... it will go around every 90 minutes... when it approaches the target area fire a rocket to decellerate the weapon out of orbit to fall on the target.

    For the enemy that bomb might have been up for years or days and disguised as a "failed" satellite. the only warning they will likely get is when it reenters so no time to do anything at all to stop it...

    The first weapon might be a 20MT bomb to detonate in the upper atmosphere over canada to blind all the radar and block all radio communcation over the northern american land mass for an hour or two to hide a full nuclear strike...


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Werewolf on Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    In other words instead of firing missiles over the north pole from Russia to the US, you can fire them south on the opposite trajectory over the south pole and up over south and central america to attack north america from the south... where no long range radar cover...

    it will go around every 90 minutes... when it approaches the target area fire a rocket to decellerate the weapon out of orbit to fall on the target.

    For the enemy that bomb might have been up for years or days and disguised as a "failed" satellite. the only warning they will likely get is when it reenters so no time to do anything at all to stop it...

    The first weapon might be a 20MT bomb to detonate in the upper atmosphere over canada to blind all the radar and block all radio communcation over the northern american land mass for an hour or two to hide a full nuclear strike...

    The little problem is space based nuclear weapons are banned and space launch is monitored to a certain degree of the payload mass, not that this couldn't be still done but makes it much harder to deploy nuclear weapons in space.

    But this method is the only promising method to stay on the side of not nuked but polluded "winners" rather than die immidiatley vaporized.

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Austin on Thu Feb 27, 2014 9:33 am

    Thanks Garry , So the idea is to try the long route to reach America.......Most likely to avoid any dense missile defence , the conventional path over Europe has to cross many ABM sites.

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:03 am

    The little problem is space based nuclear weapons are banned

    Most ICBMs enter space on their way to the target area... and the ban on nuclear weapons in space is just another agreement Russia can withdraw from like the US withdrew from the ABM treaty.

    Most likely to avoid any dense missile defence , the conventional path over Europe has to cross many ABM sites.

    Exactly.

    Some large satellites weigh 12 tons or more and contain lots of fuel... would not be that hard to put a 1 ton 25MT warhead inside a shell with a rocket to decelerate the weapon from orbit and fill the rest of the body with bits to make it look like something else and pretend it failed in orbit when in fact its purpose is to hide for a decade and then slowly adjust orbit and eventually deorbit over the US with an EMP effect to wipe out most of North America leaving it totally blind to the real attack that will immediately follow.


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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  collegeboy16 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:26 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Some large satellites weigh 12 tons or more and contain lots of fuel... would not be that hard to put a 1 ton 25MT warhead inside a shell with a rocket to decelerate the weapon from orbit and fill the rest of the body with bits to make it look like something else and pretend it failed in orbit when in fact its purpose is to hide for a decade and then slowly adjust orbit  and eventually deorbit over the US with an EMP effect to wipe out most of North America leaving it totally blind to the real attack that will immediately follow.
    And the scary part is that all it takes really is one massive EMP to knock modern societies to the medieval age.

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  George1 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:45 pm

    Speaking at a press-conference in Moscow, Gen-Col. (ret.) Yesin said that the Strategic Rocket Forces expect the new heavy ICBM, Sarmat, to be ready for deployment in 2020. This is a small correction to the previously announced time range of 2018-2020 (and likely a more realistic estimate).

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    Re: New Russian heavy ICBM - Sarmatian

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 10:32 am


      Current date/time is Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:32 am