Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Share

    macedonian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1086
    Points : 1121
    Join date : 2013-04-29
    Location : Skopje, Macedonia - Скопје, Македонија

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  macedonian on Fri May 29, 2015 8:17 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Didn't expect Serbia to be so supportive of American interest after being bombed to pieces not so long ago. Ignoring history should be a crime, Churchill was right.

    You're mixing "Serbia" with "Serbian Politicians" there...and that's ABSOLUTELY NOT the same.
    Similar with the government here, if I may add.
    Both are imbeciles that have no integrity whatsoever.
    Can't bring myself to write more, so if you care - take my word as the truth, and if not...well I'm too disappointed to care right now.

    flamming_python wrote:That's a shame.

    It just shows that these countries are as malleable to outside pressure as Bulgaria is and can't make firm sovereign decisions as to what regards their own economic development and territory. Greece, although it hasn't publically had its final say on this matter yet - is likely the same way; they're just playing tough and flirting with Russia for the leverage it gives them over their debt negotiations. I fully expect they'll ultimately fold too. Expected more from Serbia really, and Macedonia for that matter - after the recent public rallying and politicians' fiery speeches against EU/Western pressure there.

    Feel sorry for Hungary; they're the only ones with any balls there.

    No matter. Like I said, the original plan was just to build the Turk Stream to Turkey, and let the Europeans worry about how to get gas from there. Honestly it's the only workable plan and always was.
    Russia will lose a little profit and potential influence over Balkan politics, but it's really no big deal - experience has shown that spending money and energy on the Balkans is futile and that there are no reliable partners there.

    Well, what the hell did you expect?!
    I mean a large country like Russia gave in to a lot, when confronted directly in the 90's, what are small Balkan countries to do?
    Though, I agree - I expected a lot more from this situation...and am secretly hoping that the fat lady hasn't sung just yet...but - yeah, we'll see...

    macedonian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1086
    Points : 1121
    Join date : 2013-04-29
    Location : Skopje, Macedonia - Скопје, Македонија

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  macedonian on Fri May 29, 2015 8:39 pm

    You know...whenever I go to Sofia, Bulgaria, I enjoy reading what's written on their Parliament building:
    "Съединението прави силата" (Strength lies in unity).

    I wish all the Slavic* Balkan countries could understand what's actually written there...but I've known for a long time, that a lot of suffering has to pass before we do. Such pity. We're being played like a string quartet in Allegro Vivace...and we masochistically enjoy every bit of it...

    I've seen this happen a bit too much, and each and every time it makes me angry
    over and over again...

    *not limited to Slavic countries

    Neutrality
    Major
    Major

    Posts : 836
    Points : 854
    Join date : 2015-05-02

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Neutrality on Fri May 29, 2015 9:31 pm

    You know, flirting with both Russia's interests and European/Western interests and trying to play both sides in your favor is exactly what did Yanukovich in. I really hope that this isn't happening again in the name of peace.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  flamming_python on Fri May 29, 2015 9:46 pm

    macedonian wrote:Well, what the hell did you expect?!

    About what happened.
    Just didn't expect Serbia to be the weak link.
    What after sending the honour guard to the May 9th parade in Moscow and everything. And now they're dumping Turk Stream in favour of a non-existent American pipeline with no realistic prospects or supplies whatsoever, and designed only to troll and foil Russia's plans with. As soon as it achieves that it will fade into oblivion itself. Any idiot can see that.

    macedonian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1086
    Points : 1121
    Join date : 2013-04-29
    Location : Skopje, Macedonia - Скопје, Македонија

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  macedonian on Fri May 29, 2015 10:54 pm

    Neutrality wrote:You know, flirting with both Russia's interests and European/Western interests and trying to play both sides in your favor is exactly what did Yanukovich in. I really hope that this isn't happening again in the name of peace.
    You're surprised that politicians engage in politics?
    "Our" Balkan politicians are the worst of the lot, let me tell you...I thought it was common knowledge by know: "our" politicos betray the plebs (us) and are merely interested in filling their pockets...be they Serbian, Macedonian or Bulgarian...actually Yanukovych was no better than this lot...nor are they better than him in Any way...


    flamming_python wrote:
    macedonian wrote:Well, what the hell did you expect?!

    About what happened.
    Just didn't expect Serbia to be the weak link.
    What after sending the honour guard to the May 9th parade in Moscow and everything. And now they're dumping Turk Stream in favour of a non-existent American pipeline with no realistic prospects or supplies whatsoever, and designed only to troll and foil Russia's plans with. As soon as it achieves that it will fade into oblivion itself. Any idiot can see that.

    One could say that Serbia wasn't the weakling that you describe, and indeed for the reasons that you've mentioned.
    Serbia was brave enough to stand-up to NATO once with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!
    What did that bring? Devastation? Ruins? Whom were they helped by? No-one perhaps?!
    National Interests?! That comes right after you've made sure your territory is safe...and Serbia is a great-good nation indeed, but it can't take-on a great military force like NATO with no HELP from its...brothers!!! Where's the help?! Serbia can't be expected to take-on such a huge military and political force ON ITS OWN - ONCE AGAIN!!! Not when Russia is a much stronger than what it used to be!
    Sorry...as much as I hate the Serb/Macedonian politicos for the events, I must say Russia bears a brunt of the burden too...and let's not act otherwise...

    max steel
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2979
    Points : 3013
    Join date : 2015-02-13
    Location : South Pole

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  max steel on Fri May 29, 2015 11:25 pm

    Things havent settled yet in Macedonia ?

    macedonian
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1086
    Points : 1121
    Join date : 2013-04-29
    Location : Skopje, Macedonia - Скопје, Македонија

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  macedonian on Fri May 29, 2015 11:34 pm

    max steel wrote:Things havent settled yet in Macedonia ?

    According to the western press - Yes, indeed things've settled.
    Ask me - and I think things are worse than what they used to be. (I've explained this enough in my posts so far I think)

    So I don't think I can answer that question fully.
    I can say that I prefer things not settled, rather than have them settled as they are at the moment.

    Airbornewolf
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 338
    Points : 400
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Location : netherlands

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Airbornewolf on Sat May 30, 2015 3:54 am

    macedonian wrote:


    Serbia was brave enough to stand-up to NATO once with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!
    What did that bring? Devastation? Ruins? Whom were they helped by? No-one perhaps?!
    National Interests?! That comes right after you've made sure your territory is safe...and Serbia is a great-good nation indeed, but it can't take-on a great military force like NATO with no HELP from its...brothers!!! Where's the help?! Serbia can't be expected to take-on such a huge military and political force ON ITS OWN - ONCE AGAIN!!! Not when Russia is a much stronger than what it used to be!
    Sorry...as much as I hate the Serb/Macedonian politicos for the events, I must say Russia bears a brunt of the burden too...and let's not act otherwise...

    from what i can "feel" among my contacts there is still deep resentment among Serbia's military towards NATO. Serbia itself might be part of the EU but "the old garde" among Serbian forces are still raised with the history and memory's of NATO's campaign against them. and personally i fully understand their views on NATO and their true motivations that are quite the opposite of what their politicians are doing.

    the current serb government already broke campaign promises by crawling up to the E.U. and what is preventing the serb government of joining NATO is that the Serb population and Millitary would never allow that. and propably revolt as soon the imminent threat arises of NATO forces set foot on Serbia. from my own impressions the Serbs would feel that NATO would have "won" and "forced them on their knees" if Serbia would host NATO forces in whatever shape or form. the ones i hear quoted their deceased relatives saying they never allow NATO authority on their lands. i deeply respect that point of view.

    the fact that shot down F-117 still lies in an museum for all to see is still an monument of defiance to NATO's campaign against Serbia. in my opinion it should be an symbol of inspiration of determination and character. i deeply admire that, and the pilot of that F-117 admires the Serbian/Balkan mentality as well. currently he is friends with the anti-air battery commander that shot him down at the time.

    i fully understand your frustrations as well Macedonian. as much i can understand as an outsider reading up on events of course. i am not there present in Macedonia. if i visit tough you be the first to know. your messages, points of view, and opinions are very valuable to me, and i am sure to others as well.

    i've been for an while under the impression Russia pursues soft power with foreign country's where it can, and only does hard measures it feels it has to. it does not mean Russia just watches tough.
    not that i condemn, but recently i have seen some hardware showing up in Eastern Ukraine that only could have come from current Russia's arms industry. Pantsir S-1 system, Kord in fully complete sets including optics. etc. the stuff did not just took a "wrong turn on the highway". or "fallen of an truck" you know? Razz.
    there is always more going on that politics say and the eye can see is just what i mean. Russia has moderate interests in the Balkan Regions. there has to be some things going on outside our eyes. i am certain that behind the curtains they are busy countering the Americans somehow.

    all that said tough, i understand from the viewable picture you are pissed off Macedonian. Greece so far seems to knees to Brussel's IMF dictatorship and Serbia is dancing to U.S it's bullshit gas pipe program. and Macedonian's government "needs EU aproval". for the transit line. i am sure it all feels like some surreal dream that you can not believe is happening after what happened in both the last years and few months. in and outside Macedonia. i would just be as angry as you.

    flamming_python
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3201
    Points : 3329
    Join date : 2012-01-30

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  flamming_python on Sat May 30, 2015 4:15 am

    macedonian wrote:One could say that Serbia wasn't the weakling that you describe, and indeed for the reasons that you've mentioned.
    Serbia was brave enough to stand-up to NATO once with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!
    What did that bring? Devastation? Ruins? Whom were they helped by? No-one perhaps?!
    National Interests?! That comes right after you've made sure your territory is safe...and Serbia is a great-good nation indeed, but it can't take-on a great military force like NATO with no HELP from its...brothers!!! Where's the help?! Serbia can't be expected to take-on such a huge military and political force ON ITS OWN - ONCE AGAIN!!! Not when Russia is a much stronger than what it used to be!
    Sorry...as much as I hate the Serb/Macedonian politicos for the events, I must say Russia bears a brunt of the burden too...and let's not act otherwise...

    They're not going to bomb Serbia for refusing their pipeline.
    They can't organize a revolution in Serbia anymore either, won't fly.

    There's nothing they can do to Serbia that they haven't already done. No real instruments they can use, other than threatening to withhold the EU membership process. No territories that they can break-away, other than perhaps the Hungarian-populated one; but I doubt Orban would be keen on playing along even if seperatism were popular there - but it's not.

    Serbia has no excuse for folding its cards. Not while Macedonia's still standing, Hungary is counting on it, Greece is still bickering with the EU, and Turk Stream is a real prospect.
    I understand, that if the situation were reversed - and Turk Stream was nothing more than a fantasy whereas the American proposal was moving ahead full-steam - that they might be interested in the American offer more; but this is not the case - their politicians have no excuse for betraying their own national interests this way, simply under the threat of their own Swiss bank accounts being frozen, labelled homophobes for the LGBT-lobby to tear up, or being declared persona non-grata in the US - which is all the West can really do.

    mutantsushi
    Senior Sergeant
    Senior Sergeant

    Posts : 285
    Points : 307
    Join date : 2013-12-12

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  mutantsushi on Sat May 30, 2015 4:47 am

    I don't see what exactly has changed re: Ru-Turk gas thru Balkans, other than verbally sucking up to Americans?
    "Adding" Azeri-based pipeline (or "diversifying beyond Ru supply") doesn't conflict with also having Ru-based pipeline, and really, why not both use the same pipe?
    (if two pipes get built, that's just more local work, though)
    The Ru-Turk concept was that Turkey would have it's own gas storage, and thus re-export Ru gas "as it's own", right?
    ALSO having Azeri input doesn't really change the big picture there AFAIK...?

    Russia's stance on Turk pipeline didn't seem based on trust+love with Erdogan as much as saying
    "Turkey itself is big gas consumer, so they can't build up infra for Ru gas then suddenly cut it off, while serving their own needs + exports"
    I don't see why Turkey would go along with previous "era" legal regime for pipeline (i.e. extraterritorial status, Western major owned etc)
    vs. implementing Ru-Turk Stream style approach ("you ship it to us, we re-export") even for any "additional" Azeri etc inputs.

    And I what other gas there is beyond Azeri is rather unclear... Sub-Caspian transit from Turkmen etc, should be no-go because that depends on Ru assent (co-own Caspian).
    Pretty much that just leaves Iran (or Iran-transited gas e.g. from Iraq), but I hardly see that as some panacea for EU...
    That ends up being a rather involved expensive pipeline from Iran, and if Russia is happy to sell to China etc, why wouldn't Iran just be "OK, lets form pricing cartel vs. EU"?

    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 30, 2015 4:50 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    macedonian wrote:Well, what the hell did you expect?!

    About what happened.
    Just didn't expect Serbia to be the weak link.
    What after sending the honour guard to the May 9th parade in Moscow and everything. And now they're dumping Turk Stream in favour of a non-existent American pipeline with no realistic prospects or supplies whatsoever, and designed only to troll and foil Russia's plans with. As soon as it achieves that it will fade into oblivion itself. Any idiot can see that.

    Well, maybe Russia should start planning in advance for once. Building a pipeline is piece of cake from this end but it matters little when you have nothing to plug it into. Remember South Stream? Same problem with Turk Stream, we are sandwiched between most obedient NATO countries and small powerless ones.

    If you haven't noticed Serbia does not have access to 3 oceans, does not cover 1/6 of planet's landmass and has no nukes.

    Bring that pipe to the border (or make some kind of guarantees that pipe will be brought) and we'll handle the rest.

    And FYI, unlike everyone else (Russia included) we actually had the balls to take on NATO so I would hardly call us weak.
    Usually when NATO so much as sneezes everyone shits their pants and starts smiling and obeying.
    We didn't. We done our tour of duty so go complain to someone else.

    Cyberspec
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2116
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Cyberspec on Sat May 30, 2015 4:51 am

    I think you guys are despairing and over reacting to an over hyped news report.

    My understanding is that they are open to both options and would want to diversify supplies if possible since Russia plans to stop pumping gas through Ukraine from 2019. If there's no alternative by then, Macedonia and Serbia will be left without any supplies of gas.

    The proposed Trans Adriatic pipeline is mostly a paper project so far. The small first stage won't be ready (if ever) until around 2025.

    While the Turk stream will depend on whether Russia and the EU can come to an agreement....MK and Serbia don't have much of a say in that.

    P.S

    I see Mutantsashi has a similar view....

    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 30, 2015 4:59 am

    Cyberspec wrote:I think you guys are despairing and over reacting to an over hyped news report.

    My understanding is that they are open to both options and would want to diversify supplies if possible since Russia plans to stop pumping gas through Ukraine from 2019. If there's no alternative by then, Macedonia and Serbia will be left without any supplies of gas.

    The proposed Trans Adriatic pipeline is mostly a paper project so far. The small first stage won't be ready (if ever) until around 2025.

    While the Turk stream will depend on whether Russia and the EU can come to an agreement....MK and Serbia don't have much of a say in that.

    P.S

    I see Mutantsashi has a similar view....

    Public opinion here regrading the pipelines is simple: first come - first served, both come - both served.
    So let's see who comes... Both gases burn good.

    sepheronx
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 7301
    Points : 7611
    Join date : 2009-08-06
    Age : 27
    Location : Canada

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  sepheronx on Sat May 30, 2015 5:02 am

    Serbia should build more power plants, be it nuclear and renewable (windmill, ect) and work on more electric heating systems. Win win for Serbia.

    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat May 30, 2015 5:19 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:.....................................................
    from what i can "feel" among my contacts there is still deep resentment among Serbia's military towards NATO. Serbia itself might be part of the EU but "the old garde" among Serbian forces are still raised with the history and memory's of NATO's campaign against them. and personally i fully understand their views on NATO and their true motivations that are quite the opposite of what their politicians are doing.

    the current serb government already broke campaign promises by crawling up to the E.U. and what is preventing the serb government of joining NATO is that the Serb population and Millitary would never allow that. and propably revolt as soon the imminent threat arises of NATO forces set foot on Serbia. from my own impressions the Serbs would feel that NATO would have "won" and "forced them on their knees" if Serbia would host NATO forces in whatever shape or form. the ones i hear quoted their deceased relatives saying they never allow NATO authority on their lands. i deeply respect that point of view.
    .........................................................

    It's simple: Serbia will never join NATO unless we get something insanely awesome. And by that I mean 1/2 of Bosnia, most of Kosovo, several decades of fully subsidized military budget (West Germany style), brand new guns & gear of most amazing kind (no export versions thank you) and a rock solid guarantee that we get to sit out WW3.
    WW3 would be too much drama for our taste, we done our part (think Spain in 1930's).
    So no NATO for us.

    Serbian Army will NEVER rebel against the government (this is not Africa or Middle East) nor will Serbian Army EVER act against it's people. When Milosevic ordered his own "praetorian guard" (not Army mind you) to throw tear gas from helo on protesters they turned off the radio and went home. You know the rest of the story...

    Serbia will join EU because there is no second option ATM but we are not in any hurry. Support for EU has dropped below 50% according to recent polls.

    Should Bulgaria (for example) somehow join Eurasian Union, then consider us to be next.
    Just like pipeline: get it to the border, we'll handle the rest...

    Airbornewolf
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 338
    Points : 400
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Location : netherlands

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Airbornewolf on Sun May 31, 2015 5:47 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    It's simple: Serbia will never join NATO unless we get something insanely awesome. And by that I mean 1/2 of Bosnia, most of Kosovo, several decades of fully subsidized military budget (West Germany style), brand new guns & gear of most amazing kind (no export versions thank you) and a rock solid guarantee that we get to sit out WW3.
    WW3 would be too much drama for our taste, we done our part (think Spain in 1930's).
    So no NATO for us.

    Serbian Army will NEVER rebel against the government (this is not Africa or Middle East) nor will Serbian Army EVER act against it's people. When Milosevic ordered his own "praetorian guard" (not Army mind you) to throw tear gas from helo on protesters they turned off the radio and went home. You know the rest of the story...

    Serbia will join EU because there is no second option ATM but we are not in any hurry. Support for EU has dropped below 50% according to recent polls.

    Should Bulgaria (for example) somehow join Eurasian Union, then consider us to be next.
    Just like pipeline: get it to the border, we'll handle the rest...

    thanks for your point of view and commenting on my post. and giving corrections where it was needed.

    i know Serbia will not go "Africa style", its my fault for not formulating that one better when i mentioned the acceptable limits i perceived among the Serbian millitary and the population. still, i am an outsider of course from those matter's and its only logical i could be wrong one day with those perceptions. in my rush tough i formulated it very wrong.

    from the people that where in Serbia's army i talked with i noticed a deep resentment towards NATO tough, i talked to around 5 people in person about it. what would be your personal opinion about NATO?. and your own assessment of this attempt of stabilization with Macedonia if you do not mind me asking?.




    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun May 31, 2015 7:34 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:........................................................

    thanks for your point of view and commenting on my post. and giving corrections where it was needed.

    i know Serbia will not go "Africa style", its my fault for not formulating that one better when i mentioned the acceptable limits i perceived among the Serbian millitary and the population. still, i am an outsider of course from those matter's and its only logical i could be wrong one day with those perceptions. in my rush tough i formulated it very wrong.

    from the people that where in Serbia's army i talked with i noticed a deep resentment towards NATO tough, i talked to around 5 people in person about it. what would be your personal opinion about NATO?. and your own assessment of this attempt of stabilization with Macedonia if you do not mind me asking?.

    No need to apologize buddy, I know this particular corner of Europe can be very confusing place. And I wasn't upset or anything, I just wanted to deliver a lot of, possibly off topic, informations at once. Plus my brand of humor sometimes translates poorly in written form.   Cool    

    So about NATO, you assessment is spot-on. 95% of people here hate their guts and it won't change any time soon (as in decades or even century).
    Other 5% either don't care anymore or are either ultra liberal sellouts or traitors who whore themselves for money but you have that type of scum anywhere.  

    And I mean we really hate them. We may not talk about it 24/7 but that is what everyone is thinking. Ask around and you'll get the picture. Back when 9/11 happened a lot of reactions here were less than politically correct to say the least. Same with US an NATO war losses in Afghanistan and Iraq and everywhere else, you see where I'm going with this.  

    Whole thing is made even worse due to the fact that until 90's we Serbs considered countries like USA, UK and France allies, not the enemies. We fought on same sides in 2 world wars so you can only imagine kind of betrayal everyone here feels.    

    Still we know that we have very shitty geographical location so we have to play nice ATM, self-preservation and all that, but that does not affect our overall opinion of them. They are hypocritical scum who kill civilians, cooperate (in this particular region) with jihadists, slave traders and heroin traffickers (KLA, Bosnian mujahedin, etc) and sooner NATO organisation disappears (not countries, just institution) better off the world will be.

    As for Macedonia, nobody here was surprised, it has been cooking for a long time. But now with Turk Stream and Ukraine fiasco, KLA have been given green light by USA to do their thing. In fact Serbian intelligence services warned Macedonian government that something is up six weeks before s*it hit the fan but I guess they were in denial. Not anymore.

    I don't know how everything will play out but it does not look good. Macedonia is dirt poor and split 50/50 on ethnic basis. All KLA needs to do is to wait for USA to say "OK" and war starts.

    Like I said, Turk Stream + Ukraine = Macedonian crisis.    

    Hope it helps, if you need to know anything else just ask.

    Airbornewolf
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 338
    Points : 400
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Location : netherlands

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Airbornewolf on Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:05 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    No need to apologize buddy, I know this particular corner of Europe can be very confusing place. And I wasn't upset or anything, I just wanted to deliver a lot of, possibly off topic, informations at once. Plus my brand of humor sometimes translates poorly in written form.   Cool    

    So about NATO, you assessment is spot-on. 95% of people here hate their guts and it won't change any time soon (as in decades or even century).
    Other 5% either don't care anymore or are either ultra liberal sellouts or traitors who whore themselves for money but you have that type of scum anywhere.  

    And I mean we really hate them. We may not talk about it 24/7 but that is what everyone is thinking. Ask around and you'll get the picture. Back when 9/11 happened a lot of reactions here were less than politically correct to say the least. Same with US an NATO war losses in Afghanistan and Iraq and everywhere else, you see where I'm going with this.  

    Whole thing is made even worse due to the fact that until 90's we Serbs considered countries like USA, UK and France allies, not the enemies. We fought on same sides in 2 world wars so you can only imagine kind of betrayal everyone here feels.    

    Still we know that we have very shitty geographical location so we have to play nice ATM, self-preservation and all that, but that does not affect our overall opinion of them. They are hypocritical scum who kill civilians, cooperate (in this particular region) with jihadists, slave traders and heroin traffickers (KLA, Bosnian mujahedin, etc) and sooner NATO organisation disappears (not countries, just institution) better off the world will be.

    As for Macedonia, nobody here was surprised, it has been cooking for a long time. But now with Turk Stream and Ukraine fiasco, KLA have been given green light by USA to do their thing. In fact Serbian intelligence services warned Macedonian government that something is up six weeks before s*it hit the fan but I guess they were in denial. Not anymore.

    I don't know how everything will play out but it does not look good. Macedonia is dirt poor and split 50/50 on ethnic basis. All KLA needs to do is to wait for USA to say "OK" and war starts.

    Like I said, Turk Stream + Ukraine = Macedonian crisis.    

    Hope it helps, if you need to know anything else just ask.

    no offense taken in any sense, personally i still felt i should have put my toughts in better words. just saying, i could see why someone might taken my words the way i did not meanth them to be. Wink.

    in advance before i reply to the rest of your message. thanks again for your insights regarding Serbia. for people like me, its more the lack of opportunity's to catch up to what the "everyday" Serbian feels about matters. if you know what i mean.

    i was never part of what happened there, i was still an kid on school when that all happened with Serbia. i just talked to a handfull of Serbians, first somewhat distrusting me at first hand untill i basically unasked shared my views on some NATO related stuff they opened up themselves. after some drinks, some rather emotional about how NATO bombed target's they could not classify even remotely as "military". and i was just guzzling booze down as hard as they are. its more or less "building bridges" when talking sensitive stuff between foreign soldiers. again, i agreed with their interpretations.

    both from what i read in history and from my own millitary there was always this deep link between Serbia and Russia. NATO intelligence briefings labeled it as "Russian propagandist influence" of course. i know its different, that there are some deep cultural connections between Serbia and Russia.  
    as far as hating NATO i do not blame you guys, Serbia was an problem in the U.S its foreign policy that got Serbia bombed in the air campaign. and Serbian target's that where purely civilian/infrastructure related.

    you can understand of course if i believed the crap my own side NATO kept trying to shove down my throat that ten years i would not be on this forum in the first place.

    i understand the feelings after 9/11. the feeling would propably be "what goes around, comes around" right?. that they deserved that with their foreign millitary campaigns and got bitten in the rear for it.
    about the casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, lets just say i am rather happy with i got out with my body intact.
    some that do the field-work in NATO's structure as troops do more or less "deserve" what is considered "occupational hazard". its the kind of people that consider the local population as "sand-monkey's" or give them other degenerate classifications while these people are just trying to get trough life. witch i can not classify anything else as than having an "imperial colonial" mindset. but its condoned by the "exceptional nation" of course. the ones that disagree like me are just often worked out of the chain so we do not get in the way of the U.S.

    i am really no saint myself, i done some things myself i am not so sure i should be proud off. things when i think about it i still think it was necessary when i made the decision. some things really just take a moment to do it, and you ask yourself if it was a right decision afterwards. and seeing the U.S rampaging as some elephant in glass shop in Iraq and Afghanistan leaving destruction and death in its wake without reason, seeing their congress and white house drown in their own self-centered self righteous beliefs they are exceptional to do what they do.

    In other threads i touched upon NATO's policy's, and why i honestly hate them with every bone in my body. not all NATO troops are bad, those from the EU and Australia at least. some of "us" tried to tell our media about what happened really in Afghanistan and Iraq.  the MS Media just reported those guys to the military, an arrest followed by an dishonorable discharge for "being an security risk".  anyway,  i understand why people negatively affected by NATO feels that way. Serbia being one example.

    i dont know, i fully understand the serbian point of view about not giving an shit about NATO casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq. its just a bit more an grey area for me. not every NATO soldier went to those country's believing in the WOT. and about 25 percent knew they where there to clean up the U.S's its CIA mess of the Soviet-Afghan war.

    i understand the feeling of betrayal with the history of war in europe. not just with Serbia but its still an point i am ashamed with the 9th may celebrations with Russia where it was almost fully boycotted by the EU. over Ukraine that's ruled by the same scum we fought together in world war 2. my grandfather was an cavalarist and died defending his dying horse that got caught in an spray of an PZ-3 Coax. the german SS Panzer 3 did not even wasted its ammo and just ran him over together with his horse. i never forget world war 2, and what the people of Serbia participated in that together with other country's the Western media likes to shove under the carpet at the moment.
    there is no excuse for what NATO did in the serbian campaign. i never was part of it, but at least take my word for it i would never be part of such insanity.

    about NATO's contacts with local insurgents, its not just there. in 2008 there was this ambush of French troops around Kabul, Afghanistan. the Italians that did the job before the French struck a deal with the local Taliban to not attack them, involving millions in payment. as an result the French took over and severely underestimated Taliban forces. and got slaughtered unprepared.
    same with Afghanistan, i was part of Airborne Recon for an while. if we got too close to some of Karzai's fammily or CIA assets we got called off those targets. since "it was better to have them on your hand than against you".

    more like having NATO corrupt stooges around. we never got an honest answer of course.

    i fully agree about getting rid of NATO's command. and hopefully purge a lot of high ranking EU officers in the process. they just follow U.S commands anyway and have no loyalty to their own troops or country.
    NATO has no moral compass, if it can influence, equip and finance an "force" to do their foreign policy goals it does. it does not matter indeed if its Mujaheddin, KLA or whatever scum they can use.
    i mentioned before in other threads, but my jobs where not only just front line combat.
    its why im pretty much foaming at the mouth seeing the Ukraine scenario trying to get repeated in Macedonia, because its the exact same thing the U.S does in Iraq/Afghanistan with "proxy-warfare". and worst of that it really does not matter how many people die in the process.

    maybe one of these days one of these military projections of american exceptionalism, aka "Aircraft Carrier" gets  blown up and send sinking to the bottom of the sea together with its escort fleet.

    i know about the KLA, if not for NATO support they would have been smashed a while ago. another point of frustration on my part being an NATO EU "specialist". supporting unprofessional homicidal splinter groups. on part of the KLA, "an greater Albania". seriously?. like Serbia, Macedonia and Greece are going to surrender parts of their territory to let that happen.

    personally, i like to work to solutions. not short-term short-sighted, narrow-mindedness by assholes like MCcain trying to plunge the entire earth in flames of war and death.
    like you pointed out PapaDragon this recent KLA move is no coincidence, they indeed gotten the green light by the U.S. 40 plus/minus guys do not show up out of nowhere from Kosovo into Macedonia.

    i really dislike hyping up volatile situations. i rather see this Macedonia situation rather just blow over. not only for our member Macedonian. but also that NATO's war mongering has to stop. trying to meddle with internal affairs to turn things to its advantage of its foreign policy.
    Macedonia might be poor economically, by Serbian Intel or not the Macedonian Anti-Terror units did caught those 40 +/- KLA insurgents off guard. someone is keeping an eye out for them. coincidence's in these things do not exist.

    and if i got a question next time, ill definatly ask!. thank you! Wink.

    Cyberspec
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 1945
    Points : 2116
    Join date : 2011-08-08
    Location : Terra Australis

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:07 am

    PapaDragon wrote:So about NATO, you assessment is spot-on. 95% of people here hate their guts and it won't change any time soon (as in decades or even century).
    Other 5% either don't care anymore or are either ultra liberal sellouts or traitors who whore themselves for money but you have that type of scum anywhere.

    You know more than me since you're on the ground, but I get the feeling that this government is only marginally better than the previous openly pro West government and really only the president is pro Russian to a degree and tries to have some sort of balance in the foreign policy.....the fact is that the country has only limited sovereignty (just like it's neighbours).



    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:34 am

    Cyberspec wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:So about NATO, you assessment is spot-on. 95% of people here hate their guts and it won't change any time soon (as in decades or even century).
    Other 5% either don't care anymore or are either ultra liberal sellouts or traitors who whore themselves for money but you have that type of scum anywhere.

    You know more than me since you're on the ground, but I get the feeling that this government is only marginally better than the previous openly pro West government and really only the president is pro Russian to a degree and tries to have some sort of balance in the foreign policy.....the fact is that the country has only limited sovereignty (just like it's neighbours).

    You are right. Serbia, like pretty much all countries in this region, only has limited sovereignty.

    Still that does not change the fact that NATO is very volatile topic and that any politician that would advocate joining NATO would be committing career suicide and would be taking most of his associates careers down with him. We have several of those and trust me, they are barely able to get themselves elected into town hall, let alone something bigger.        

    Signing some cooperation agreements with NATO is one thing and it is seen for what it is: necessary evil needed for survival. But joining NATO would be like king of Saudi Arabia proclaiming that all his subjects would have to start eating pork meat.  Granted, some would do as he says but vast majority would simply tell him to go have intercourse with himself.  

    Our previous government was pro-west. Today parties that constituted that government are barely able to cross election threshold and are basically fighting for survival on political scene. Voters here simply are not into "pro-west" stuff for the most part.
    Like I sad, recent polls show support for joining EU to be below 50%. This drop coincided with two things: openly visible financial problems in EU and standoff with Russia.

    Our current government and prime minister may appear to be at odds with our president but I would say that it is simply impression created by local media, most of whom have very deep and often legally questionable ties to previous government.

    Our president and prime minister are like Yoda and Obi Wan. Those two do not do a single thing without consulting each other, especially when it comes to foreign policy.

    I am not too fond of quite a few of their policies myself but, believe me, those two get along just fine.


    Last edited by PapaDragon on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:39 am; edited 1 time in total

    PapaDragon
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3775
    Points : 3887
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:35 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:...........................

    no offense taken in any sense, personally i still felt i should have put my toughts in better words. just saying, i could see why someone might taken my words the way i did not meanth them to be. Wink.

    in advance before i reply to the rest of your message. thanks again for your insights regarding Serbia. for people like me, its more the lack of opportunity's to catch up to what the "everyday" Serbian feels about matters. if you know what i mean.

    .........................................................

    personally, i like to work to solutions. not short-term short-sighted, narrow-mindedness by assholes like MCcain trying to plunge the entire earth in flames of war and death.
    like you pointed out PapaDragon this recent KLA move is no coincidence, they indeed gotten the green light by the U.S. 40 plus/minus guys do not show up out of nowhere from Kosovo into Macedonia.

    i really dislike hyping up volatile situations. i rather see this Macedonia situation rather just blow over. not only for our member Macedonian. but also that NATO's war mongering has to stop. trying to meddle with internal affairs to turn things to its advantage of its foreign policy.
    Macedonia might be poor economically, by Serbian Intel or not the Macedonian Anti-Terror units did caught those 40 +/- KLA insurgents off guard. someone is keeping an eye out for them. coincidence's in these things do not exist.

    and if i got a question next time, ill definatly ask!. thank you! Wink.

    No problem my friend. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    If there is one thing that we learned  to do around here it is to always know that there is a difference between politicians of a country and people who live in that country. I am optimist myself and I believe that things will eventually work out for the best and that one day this whole continent will be able to move forward in peace and together.  

    In spite of what happened people here in Serbia do not have a habit of holding grudges. We are in a tunnel now but there is always a light at the end of it. Have faith in yourself and those around you.  

    And tonight I will raise a glass in honor of your grandfather. May the good man rest in peace.

    Vann7
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 3270
    Points : 3394
    Join date : 2012-05-16

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:15 am




    max steel
    Colonel
    Colonel

    Posts : 2979
    Points : 3013
    Join date : 2015-02-13
    Location : South Pole

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  max steel on Sun Jun 14, 2015 3:31 pm

    EU Calls for Regime Change in Macedonia, Current PM Determined to Stay








    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150613/1023329043.html

    Airbornewolf
    Master Sergeant
    Master Sergeant

    Posts : 338
    Points : 400
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Location : netherlands

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Airbornewolf on Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:22 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    No problem my friend. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    If there is one thing that we learned  to do around here it is to always know that there is a difference between politicians of a country and people who live in that country. I am optimist myself and I believe that things will eventually work out for the best and that one day this whole continent will be able to move forward in peace and together.  

    In spite of what happened people here in Serbia do not have a habit of holding grudges. We are in a tunnel now but there is always a light at the end of it. Have faith in yourself and those around you.  

    And tonight I will raise a glass in honor of your grandfather. May the good man rest in peace.

    thanks again, and likewise thanks for sharing your opinion.

    and your are totally right, like the Dutch People calling "bullshit" on Ukraine more and more the politicians still like to paint the war-scepter against Russia. it is so retarded.

    i prefer to be an optimist myself in public, and in reality i hope for the best cases of course. i am sure you believe just as i do this continent belongs to the Europeans, meaning people like us and any meddling from overseas should be kicked on an boat and deported to the continent where they came from. the U.S only brings Death and conflict wherever they go.

    i mean,...point to one place in the world where they went that did not end up in smoking ruins?. Razz.

    but sure, eventually we will get there. let's just say i never raise my weapon against any EU country. there just will not be an third war in europe. i refuse it and i know a lot of other NATO troops do too. we just need to get rid of the Americans from Europe before we get definite peace.

    its an question of time tough, Germany's Millitary - Industrial complex is already turning against the U.S and withdrawn its support to Merkel an while ago. German Bankers and Industry are following suit now. French Shipbuilders and arms manufacturers are foaming at the mouth themselves and supporting Le Pen's Party to re-open weapon contracts with Russia. its an matter of time i think.

    and i appreciate it! Wink. thank you. and in extension to that drink for anyone who died against Fascism.

    as an side note,not directed against you Papadragon at all but to the general viewer of this message:

    i think no american can ever understand how "us" europeans think about war. for americans, war is something that happens far from their home. they just see bits and pieces of it on their T.V's what the media shows them during their dinner. they eat their dinner and just go on without giving it an second tought. because its across an ocean. who cares?.

    every european here of my age on this forum has at least one gruesome war experience told to them by their parents and/or grandparents. about how unforgiving and brutal it is to have war getting to your own house and what happens as an result. fammily's get torn appart, loved ones die of disease and injuries and where to scavenge your next meal from?. how it is to have an bomb blow up in your garden ripping bodyparts from your wife/husband or just leaving an crater while an smashed swingset is hanging in the trees containing your childs remains?.

    war is something familiar to Europeans, its downright traumatic and an nightmare. like i mentioned my grandfather got run over alive by an tank, but when the americans arrived in my city of Deventer they set 14 to 16 year old german children on fire alive that where forced into german service. because they tried to defend an bridge and got "zippo'd" by an Sherman. they are just as monsters as the nazi's in world war 2. i heard this story from my grandma about how some 15-year old german kid was crying for his mother on the Dutch Streets of Apeldoorn. my grandfather from my dad's side could just walk up to him,take his rifle and took him to his home. while in the middle of the winter hunger they still took him in and gave him tea and biscuits. the kids where just an victim like the rest of us in europe.

    its also why i refused to watch "band of brothers" or bullshit crap like "fury". its downright propaganda, what happened in Western Europe was NOT that. but i guess de-humanizing people is what the U.S does best.
    but the U.S people got this grotesque distortion of reality when it comes to that or current geopolitical affairs and military perceptions. i noticed this in my vacation to the U.S. i really hope the U.S will learn before they will learn the hard way.












    Sponsored content

    Re: FYROM inter-ethnic violence

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 12:19 am


      Current date/time is Sun Jan 22, 2017 12:19 am