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    Russian Radar systems

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    Viktor
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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Viktor on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:52 am

    Given the situation in Syria one can wonder about the efficiency of its air defense systems. But if looked in comparison with Iran

    they have better radar coverage and more airdefense systems. Of course geography is important and because Iran is pretty far from

    Israel and big country overall gives them batter position but on the other hand their airdefense is obsolete and based mostly

    on artillery air defense. Those have little combat values.

    nemrod
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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  nemrod on Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:23 pm

    Viktor wrote:Given the situation in Syria one can wonder about the efficiency of its air defense systems. But if looked in comparison with Iran

    they have better radar coverage and more airdefense systems. Of course geography is important and because Iran is pretty far from

    Israel and big country overall gives them batter position but on the other hand their airdefense is obsolete and based mostly

    on artillery air defense. Those have little combat values.

    About Syria as I've said, having russina'state of the art military hardware is one thing, but how to use it efficiently is another question.
    As I said previously, syrian people is not less intelligent than another, but the system in Syria, in military area, the select'critèrion is not the compenticies at first, but the loyalibility to the regime. For that reason, Russia has a huge headache, if not nightmare with Syria, because to use its state of art S-300/400, Tor, Pantsir, it must be russian milirary staff, not another.

    On Iran many things were said, but I've seen, they downed with high success RQ sentinelle recently-US state of art drone-, moreover, during Iraq/Iran war, the Sadam's army, with their state of art hardwares, could never penetrate deeply inside Iranian'terroritory.

    Iam near sure now, USA/Israel cannot afford to dare a war with Iran, moreover, I doubt that if Hormuz detroit is bloqued, USA cannot afford to reopen it. Noone could tell you this truth.
    To attack Iran, this is too late. It could be possible in early 2000's, but now it is near impossible for America, as their huge credit crisis is only begining. And the next phase of their crisis T-Bond, dollar will definitly knock out this country for at least this decade, as the USSR was.
    Furthermore, I suspect Iran has developped other weapons that could cause a such loses to US army, that a war is useless.
    We are on the verge of an historical switch, and contrary what it was said, USA wants now as soon as possible to integrate Iran and Russia, as new allies, even though they will have to sacrifice Israel. And more than ever, they are ready for that.


    Regards.

    medo
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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:49 pm

    No use to talk about war with Russia.

    http://www.aif.ru/politics/article/61001

    I think there are still some wise people, who don't think big war is impossible. China is getting ready for war. Question is against who. They build big blue water navy for war in pacific and Indian ocean, but also they build big land force. Against who, India or maybe against Russia for natural resources in far East?

    For Russia is still quite important to have strong armored forces with good air force and air defense protection to fight big conventional war. Russia have nukes, but China also and China have more than billion people, so they have large reserves and modern army.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  gaurav on Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:31 am

    Nemrod wrote: As US'economic situation is going worse and worse, if not gloomy, it is nowadays dubious
    if USA undergoes such riskies adventures. USA is in bankrupty situation, and the dollar with their QE...,
    has less and less value. Many countries in world, including Russia, is trading with other money than dollar.

    That is true but U.S is withdrawing from Afghan and Iraq and both of them as controvesial as it can be.Even now U.S soldiers
    and their domestic informers(police persons)
    are killed daily in Iraq and Afghan.
    The use IED's in Iraq and Afghan is stil the most destructive weapon in insurgents hands.
    After the U.S withdraws(during withdrawal the U.S ) will have lot of reserves to go to war with Syria.
    But U.S does not understand what is going on in Syria.Infact for any analyst it is difficult to predict the outcome of the
    prolog civil war in Syria.This is the reason U.S is still waiting in Syria.

    The U.S economic situation was bad from July 2008 onwards.From that point it has relatively stabilized at extreme
    lower points of GDP Growth.The growth of salaries and incomes for majority of middle class in U.S is close to zero
    but it has not decreased.
    Yes initially there were lot of layoffs but last 4 years there has been relative staibillity with no job growth.
    The result is that almost 50million Americans are below poverty line.

    In the same way there has been no decrease of U.S arms industry.On the whole it is filled with workers(white) and (immigrants) alike.
    That insdutry also keeps on working as usual.
    But on the whole ..
    We can conclude from the above points that the U.S economy and mil Industry are in relative stable but overall Chaotic
    conditions.The result is that U.S thirst for war to stabilize it's economy is increasing day by day.

    Infact France, U.K also want that their aircraft, armoured carriers, ships keep floating in times of economic stress
    Recently U.K offered Amorured personal carriers to Syrian rebels . The conditions of transfer are not easy.



    Nemrod wrote:Nevertheless, if USA does not undergoe to attack Iran now, in few years, it would be impossible, as iranian'economy should become power. They are in the verge of nuclear power, and their economy is very well
    prepare to fight a new era. It now exports refined oils, and not only crude oil,
    electricity, steel, and many many goods.
    Exactly U.S is in no position to take on Iran.By the way one of reasons U.S does not want to take on Iran is that Iran is
    filled with China suppllied missles.
    Both in navy and in air defense.Fori.e c-602,c-702,c802 and their modifications.Iran also has strong and stable army
    with lots of old weapons but effective in fighting ground war.
    Beside 39 Tor-m2 systems were supplied to Iran in 2008 ..!that time..

    Regarding Iran we know now that U.S does not have the guts totake on 80 million strong country.





    Regardng the scenario in Syria it is really complex to tell what situation will unfold.

    Nemrod wrote:On contrary, there were lebanese students in University, in 30 lebanese, just one have failed
    to obtain a diploma.
    If we back to the subject, to handle S-300, Pantsir-C1, it
    required many compentencies, that syrian staff has not, or far to have.

    What I see is..
    This conflict is unique in the world and the Army has dug in its heels.Th is after almost 66percent of complte Syrian army
    has either left or joind rebel ranks.
    Thi is a three year old high intensity war.The Syrian army is fghting an insurgency, a full scale terror attack
    (from zihadists, wahabhis ,syrian rebels)and a civil war combined into one.
    The terrorists have come to Syria from any countries t is difficult to list all countries citizens fighting in Syria.

    The present Syrian army is the worlds only independent organization(without NATO support)who is
    now capable to fight a full blown highintensity war(insurgency) on its own means.
    Iraq and Afghan insurgency was handled by the U.S special operation forces from day 1 almost (decade ago)
    to last day which still has not come.

    One can laugh at the though if Syrian army is replaced with Iraq or Afghan "domestic" witout a cent been payed by U.S.
    Hence,
    By no means it can be said that syrians are less experienced or their capacity to be effective in war is lower than others.
    What thse present data suggest.

    Now why the U.S is reluctant to go to war in Syria after 3 years of high intensity conflict there.Syrian army is
    already depleted.
    Thier personnel are tired , they have become inefficient , special operation forces are also depleted .
    Comman structure everything is hardly working

    Barring media hype .. Not one single U.S favourite " air based reconasaance mission has gone close to syrian airspace
    from any direction. No reconassance from all beloved Turkey(loved by all..? why not..).
    One of the major source of armed insurgents in Syria is Turkey.
    Now the U.S media will say
    The reason U.S satellite technology writing number plates of all cars in Damascus..he he .. cut the crap..
    that is not the reason..
    One direct answere is "Russian arms supply to Syria" Thsis an unending report seen in CNN, Fox news from past 3 years.
    But Russian arma are very limited whch are given to Syria.
    Well I also guess the real reason is close to above one.
    The reason fro U.S to NOT to go to war with Syria are..
    a.Complex situation on the ground not understood till now.
    b. Russian arms suppy to syria.
    C. May be reent arms supply from Russia to compensate losses of Syria army. Smile

    Recently 2-3 ships(no need to say huge capacity ships) frm Pacific fleet (I think delivered ..?or not) they are still on the way..are delivering "combat cargo" to Syria beach.
    In january also 2 Russian ships delivered their cargo , dont know what they were.
    what I can say is that Syrian air defense are manned by quality personnel (not replaced by Russian crews).

    Of course to add that there are no Russian crews manning Syrian air defense or anything of that sort.
    They are able to do their job on their own atleast till now.
    This is a thank less job because the results are not seen..
    from all the richest countries (of this world) not a single jet fighter close to Syrian rispace for atleast 3-4 years.
    Israel planned a utter desperate , air attack for 20 minutes and then ran away.
    They gave their reason.. air defense of Syria.

    No Reconnaissance from -> EF-200, F-16, Israeli jets..
    well real mystery .. Not if the time is almost 3-4 years of real hot confict and still no NATO aircraft in Syrian vicinity.

    I would conclude that Syrian air defese is still aive and is maintaining its deterrence factor inspite of "ZILLION ODDDS STACKED AGANST THEM"
    We hope that keep this maintanence for some more time. Smile

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  mach789igm on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:19 pm

    nemrod wrote:No use to talk about war with Russia.
    The last example was a little shit named Mr Cheney in 2008 with Georgia, I think he -and his lackey Saakatchvilli- understood very well, what is Russia.
    No country in the world, now could wage a war against Russia. This topic in fact could be moved in other parts in the forum.

    I know that a Russian Tu-22M and 3 Su-25 were knocked out by BUK systems. Georgia got BUK systems from Ucraina.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:57 pm

    mach789igm wrote:
    nemrod wrote:No use to talk about war with Russia.
    The last example was a little shit named Mr Cheney in 2008 with Georgia, I think he -and his lackey Saakatchvilli- understood very well, what is Russia.
    No country in the world, now could wage a war against Russia. This topic in fact could be moved in other parts in the forum.

    I know that a Russian Tu-22M and 3 Su-25 were knocked out by BUK systems. Georgia got BUK systems from Ucraina.

    Su-25s were mostly hit by MANPADs.
    Also it is hihgly unlikely the Georgians shot down 3. Some were hit, and on return hit again by friendly fire and went down.

    Actually through FF more planes were lost that through direct Georgian shoot downs.
    Only 2 planes are known to have been taken down through enemy fire; 1 is unknown. That leaves 3 to "other causes" including friendly fire.

    There were cases mind you of the Su-25 being hit and making it back to base. Sweet sweet armor.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:42 pm

    The Backfire shot down was a Tu-22MR recon model. At least three Tu-22M3 bombers hit at least one airfield in Georgia... you can tell by the bomb tracks in this photo:



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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:43 pm

    While it worked, that photo also shows why the Gefest upgrade for Tu-22s is critical.
    That sort of archaic bombing is not what the RuAF needs in the future.

    I imagine the Tu-22M could carry quite a few KAB-1500Ls internally....would probably do a hell of a lot more damage to the airway than that carpet bombing.

    Apparently Tu-160s were used in the conflict to hit radar stations as well. Curios wither they just used Kh-55s or ARMs.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:14 am

    Those upgrades will make an enormous difference... the Backfire is an enormously under rated aircraft... it can actually carry more 250kg bombs than a B-52 (it can carry 69).

    But having said that standard operational procedure when bombing and airfield is to bomb across like this to ensure at least a few hits.

    Flying down the airfield could mean all your bombs miss.

    Certainly using satellite guided 250kg bombs carried externally on the four hard point mounted multiple ejector racks (4 x 9 = 36 or 9 tons) plus the internal rotary launcher loaded with KAB-1500 bombs, 6 x 1,500kg would be another 9 tons, which is 18 tons and well below its 24 ton capacity would have completely eliminated the airfield and many of its buildings and its radar and communication equipment... from a much safer height and speed.

    Apparently Tu-160s were used in the conflict to hit radar stations as well. Curios wither they just used Kh-55s or ARMs.

    That sounds very strange, they would have to be Tu-160M aircraft and the most likely weapon would be the Kh-555. As far as I know the Kh-15 only has a tactical nuclear armed version, which would be the only ARM the Tu-160 carries. The Tu-160M has an expanded weapon range, but we still know very little about its options.

    I suspect a rather better combination for hitting radar sites would be a Tu-22M3 and Kh-22M or Kh-32 with the anti radiation seeker ARM version.


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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:38 am

    Kh-55 not Kh-15 Garry Wink

    Kh-15 is gone, retired from inventory.
    Regular Tu-160 uses Kh-55, Kh-55SM, or Kh-555, but for all practical purposes they would be the same utility in the given task.
    It is rather curious the Kh-22P was not utilized from Tu-22Ms. I guess they wanted to strike from really far away, and the radar sites were well known locations anyways (Tbilsi airport) so cruise missiles work fine.

    Actually I am curious what weapons will be integrated into the Tu-160M, aside from smart bombs.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:30 am

    Kh-55 not Kh-15 Garry

    Kh-55 and kh-15 are nuclear armed weapons.

    Kh-555 is the conventionally armed model of the Kh-55SM (with the saddle fuel tanks and nuclear warhead).

    Kh-15 is gone, retired from inventory.
    Regular Tu-160 uses Kh-55, Kh-55SM, or Kh-555, but for all practical purposes they would be the same utility in the given task.

    I know, I mentioned the kh-15 as the only ARM carried by the Tu-160, there are no known ARM versions of the Kh-55 et al.

    It is rather curious the Kh-22P was not utilized from Tu-22Ms. I guess they wanted to strike from really far away, and the radar sites were well known locations anyways (Tbilsi airport) so cruise missiles work fine.

    I would rather expect the Kh-32 has become a multirole successor to the Kh-22 and Kh-22M and probably includes ARM and land attack capability and would be a more suitable weapon.

    Much higher speed and reasonable standoff range should allow it to engage targets anywhere in Georgia from Russian territory with little risk of interception.


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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:34 am

    BTW regarding the photo of the Backfire attacks, they seem to be using 250kg bombs, which is interesting, because they have 500kg cluster bombs able to carry dedicated anti runway munitions.

    This suggests to me that they either used what they had immediately available, or the plan wasn't to permanently destroy the airfield.

    A mix of concrete piercing submunitions and time delay explosive munitions would have been more appropriate... the former to disable the runways, and the latter to hinder repairs.


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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:54 pm

    Apparently Tu-160s were used in the conflict to hit radar stations as well. Curios wither they just used Kh-55s or ARMs.

    Wasn't that Su-34?

    Anyway, olimpic war with Georgia was interesting regarding Russian air force. Standar Russian Su-25 could use jamming pods SPS-141 from Soviet times, maybe even more modern ones, but in this war non Su-25 carry any jamming pod and they didn't use PGMs, only standard rocket launchers and dumb bombs. Same goes for Tu-22 and maybe even Su-24. Also why to use Su-34 to destroy radars with ARMs, when Su-24 could do it too. Maybe they try to test Su-34 in real conflict, but on the other hand not too much exposed electronic capabilities to others, who monitor and record it from Turkey.

    Interesting is, that Georgian Spyder, which was the most modern SAM in Georgia, didn't hit any plane, although RuAF use dumb weapons from planes and fly relatively close to them.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  coolieno99 on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:14 am

    Flying SEAD missions against air defenses manned by competent crews is very dangerous. During the Vietnam War, American pilots who flew SEAD missions, called them "suicide missions". 37 F-105F/G "Wild Weasel" aircrafts were shot down.

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    Russian radar systems

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:19 pm

    I think we need only one such topic where we will discuss all sort of Russian radar systems.

    Now Russian radar systems are spread among numerous other topics and the whole situation is not clear.

    So to start I have one interesting topic that emerged today.

    The Russian Defense Ministry will develop a network of beyond horizon radar with detection range of 3000 miles using as a basis the

    OTH radars 'Konteyner' developed by Niidar.








    Defense will create a new network-horizon radar


    The Ministry of Defence of Russia began to create a network of radars that allow for airspace surveillance within a radius of three thousand miles away. According to the source , "Interfax" in the heart of the new radar systems will be "Container".

    The interviewee noted that the network can be deployed at short notice and will conduct reconnaissance radar airspace, even outside of the border. Specific dates, number of stations, their location and other details were not disclosed.

    The-horizon radar (OTH-Radar) "Container" developed research and production complex " SRI distance radio communication . " The principle of reflection of radio waves is determined (the order of ten meters), the length of the ionosphere , which allows to detect a target even when it is hidden behind the horizon. The first such station was built shortly after the Second World War, after which the technology has consistently improved; Duga "Container", according to some sources , is being tested in 2002 near the town of Gorodets. The system, based on similar Duga different from other network-horizon radar "Voronezh": used for the observation of objects in space and detecting

    launches of intercontinental ballistic missiles. The main objective of "containers" to the identification of small-ship cruise missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles.


    LINK

    LINK OF THE COMPANY

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:32 pm

    Podsolnuh is smaller OTH radar and as I know, some of them are already operational in Far East and in Black Sea.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 13, 2013 2:54 am

    Question regarding PESA vs AESA

    I know Irbis-E is a very powerful PESA, but besides its detection/tracking ranges, how does it fair compare to its competitors that are in AESA form?  As well, since it lacks LPI mode, is it not easier to track an aircraft using PESA vs one using AESA?  As well, due to AESA's better ECM capabilities, how did Russia improve Irbis-E's ECM capabilities over that of the Bars radar?

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:38 am

    sepheronx wrote:Question regarding PESA vs AESA

    I know Irbis-E is a very powerful PESA, but besides its detection/tracking ranges, how does it fair compare to its competitors that are in AESA form?  As well, since it lacks LPI mode, is it not easier to track an aircraft using PESA vs one using AESA?  As well, due to AESA's better ECM capabilities, how did Russia improve Irbis-E's ECM capabilities over that of the Bars radar?




    As far as I can remember Ирбис-Э (Irbis-Eh) is not a PESA; it is not an AESA either. ESAs do not consist of only PESAs and AESAs; there are many other types of ESA radar types.


    Irbis-Eh can be classified as ~((3A + P)/4)ESA if a person insists on carrying on from a PESA/AESA type of terminology! As far as I can remember, it is semiactive in transmit and active on receive.


    In relation to LPI-capability and ECM resistance, an Irbis-Eh-type radar is indistinguishable from an AESA type.


    Academically speaking, one of the thing that has the potential of distinguishing a run-of-the-mill AESA from an Irbis-Eh-type radar (not necessarily an Irbis-Eh though) is the potential reliability aspects related to the lifetime of the transmitter TWT(s).


    I should also mention that an Irbis-Eh-type radar has potentially also advantages over a run-of the-mill AESA in certain areas.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:00 am

    New radar sets deployed although it is not clear which type and how many.

    Up to 30 new radar sets should be delivered by the end of this year.

    In the Western Military District in the air defense system on alert have taken up new radar

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  medo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:15 pm

    I think russian moD will buy a lot of new radars for all military districts.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:20 pm

    96L6 Lira radar 



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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:21 pm

    You prempted me by like 30 seconds.Damn you Victor!

    The desert paint is certainly interesting. Maybe an export brand new 96L6....

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  Viktor on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:29 pm

    TR1 wrote:You prempted me by like 30 seconds.Damn you Victor!

    CoolVery Happy


    TR1 wrote:The desert paint is certainly interesting. Maybe an export brand new 96L6....

    Was thinking the same. Perhaps Algeria? 

    Russia now adds one 96L6 per battery to increase flexibility in case 64N6 gets destroyed for whatever reason.

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:56 pm

    Wait I thought 96L6 was the "standard" search radar, and 64N6 was the additional bonus?

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    Re: Russian Radar systems

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:23 pm

    Ooops nevermind.

    Mixed up 96L6 and 92N6.

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