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    Russian Army ATGM Thread

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:33 am

    Possibly a recent thing... perhaps they have seen it somewhere and have learned to respect its performance... and now that they are buying S-400s they are going to get punished economically and politically by the US and militarily in terms of what they will be allowed to buy now... and to be honest the US doesn't really have a decent ATGM in the heavy category... TOW is clearly over rated and under performing...
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:58 pm


    The modernized Cornet has become an effective weapon against terrorists

    The Algerian army was the first of the foreign armed forces to adopt the Russian Cornet-EM self-propelled missile systems.


    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 18 SOn4kNG9_normal
    kimo dial@kmldial70

    Algeria become the 1st country outside russia to receive KORNE-EM atgm system
    with enhanced range of 10 kilmtrs
    the system can launch 4 missiles against 2 different targets
    the vehicule can carry 16 kornet atgm


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    Performed on the chassis of the armored vehicle VPK-233136 Tiger-M, they are now the most powerful ground anti-tank weapons in the ground forces of this state.
    Algerian sources have praised the power of these ATGMs and their good mobility.
    It is known that the maximum range reaches 10,000 meters, and armor penetration - 1,300 millimeters. In addition to cumulative, there are also options with HE and thermobaric warheads.

    Available sighting equipment allows the use of weapons both day and night, and in addition to objects on the ground, also hit air targets.
    Recall that two years ago in Syria in the Idlib region, a car was destroyed in which there were militants of one of the terrorist groups. It was reported that a missile launched by government forces and flying more than 7,000 m hit the vehicle. Military experts believe that this version of the Cornet was tested in real conditions.

    https://rg.ru/2020/03/12/modernizirovannyj-kornet-stal-effektivnym-oruzhiem-protiv-terroristov.html

    But I would argue the 152mm warhead (of various types) seems like overkill in most cases. The HEAT warhead has 1300mm penetration (1400mm if you count the precursor explosive), when fighting an insurgency your going against VBIED's with pathetic jalopy haphazard armor, which require no where near that level of penetration. The same applies to the thermobaric warhead, which a 152mm sized one would have insane destructive power. To put things in perspective the  92mm RPO-A flamethrower has greater destructive power than a 155 artillery shell. Kornet's thermobaric warhead would have destructive power north of a 203mm shell, which would be unnecessary in most cases against insurgents. 40 and 57mm HE-Frag autocannon shells are still really effective against infantry, so atgm's in the 40-57mm range should still be suffice, but the real question is if they could maintain the same max range; maybe instead to reduce the max speed in favor of slower longer lasting rocket fuel. I'm not arguing to remove the 152mm ATGM, just to add smaller warheads for smaller targets, with more available ammunition. 16 ATGM's is the standard Kornet-EM load out, but maybe instead you have 8 ATGM's, and the 8 replaced with '72' 57mm ATGM's/rockets (HEAT/HE-Frag/Thermobaric) for man power/VBIED's.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:35 pm

    There is a missile like that. Its name is Bulat. Will be part of the armament of the new AIFV´s. A dedicated version like the Kornet-D will likely follow.

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 18 Bulat10
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 15, 2020 6:46 pm

    Hole wrote:There is a missile like that. Its name is Bulat. Will be part of the armament of the new AIFV´s. A dedicated version like the Kornet-D will likely follow.

    Russian Army ATGM Thread - Page 18 Bulat10

    But it wasn't made clear if it would be apart of the Kornet-EM complex. We saw the new Epoch module with Bulat missiles, but in a configuration we never seen with any version Kornet. Bulat could be it's own separate weapon system, and I'm talking about incorporating new smaller missiles in the existing Kornet-EM to give flexibility and persistence.
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    Post  Hole on Sun Mar 15, 2020 9:02 pm

    Would be logical to use the Kornet-D. Skip one Kornet for four Bulat = 16 missiles per mount, 32 for the whole vehicle. Like the supposed new light missile for the Pantsir system.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Mar 16, 2020 4:20 am

    But I would argue the 152mm warhead (of various types) seems like overkill in most cases. The HEAT warhead has 1300mm penetration (1400mm if you count the precursor explosive), when fighting an insurgency your going against VBIED's with pathetic jalopy haphazard armor, which require no where near that level of penetration.

    As mentioned this is the long range heavy ATGM and its primary purpose is to take out any MBT it might encounter on the modern battlefield, so the 1.3m penetration performance is required in its primary role.

    What they are talking about here is a 10km range missile and that is the HE Frag equipped missile... the warhead is actually smaller and lighter than the HEAT anti armour warhead so effective range is extended from 8.5km for the anti armour warhead to 10km for a general purpose HE warhead.

    Hitting targets in a COIN type situation often you wont need extreme penetration, but a big HE explosive is useful and in this case the extra range it gives you is also valuable too... especially against aircraft and point targets.

    Arguing they should have a smaller lighter option... well as mentioned above... they do... the Bulat will likely be a 4-5km range missile with moderate penetration performance likely good enough for most bunkers and building strong points as well as medium armoured vehicles like BTRs and BMPs, but the cost of the smaller missile will be shorter range and reduced payload... its HE version might reach to 6km or so, but the significant size and weight reduction might allow rather more missiles to be carried.

    The BRDM-3 had a five tube launcher that could be raised for launch and lowered below the roof of the vehicle and could carry a mix of AT-4 and AT-5 missiles. The main difference was that the AT-4 was effectively a 2.5km range lighter missile and the AT-5 was a 4km range heavier missile with better penetration.

    By carrying a mix of missiles you could select a missile to better suit your target and optimise your loadout, but it was less successfully implemented because the two missiles were not hugely different in size or weight.

    so atgm's in the 40-57mm range should still be suffice, but the real question is if they could maintain the same max range; maybe instead to reduce the max speed in favor of slower longer lasting rocket fuel.

    The problem of making the missiles smaller is it will cost them range. The Pine missile has quite a long tube... about the size of the 40-50kg Ataka or Shturm missile but the missile is a two stage weapon of about 35kgs weight. Its range is 10km and its flight speed is much faster than any of the weapons mentioned... it gets to the target in about 12 seconds at 10km range...

    I would think the best solution will be the adoption of guided rockets for aircraft... with a lofted trajectory from a ground based launcher it should be possible to maximise range and performance against unarmoured targets as long as the guidance and control systems can be kept simple and light and cheap... a 57mm rocket had a payload of about 800 grammes which is about 10 times the HE payload of a standard attacking hand grenade... the problem and reason they no longer use them is that their effective radius is not enormous so you had to get the rocket very close to the target to be effective... which meant you often fired them in enormous volumes to assure something got close enough to be effective.

    With guidance then the 57mm rocket becomes effective again... you can direct one to the centre of a group of enemy troops and injure them all with one rocket.

    It would still be too light for use against vehicles I suspect but an 80mm rocket with about 6-8kgs of HE would destroy most targets with direct hits and if that fails a 122mm rocket from an S-30 rocket pod with up to 32kgs of HE (often multiple warheads in the one rocket because the 122mm rocket is designed to blow a hole in a concrete aircraft shelter and then explode inside to damage aircraft), and if that is still not good enough then there are other heavier rockets you could mount guidance to like Grads etc or those little twelve tube launchers they tow behind light vehicles... guidance kits on those with a drone to target mark means you could hit groups of enemy precisely and easily and relatively cheaply...

    There is a missile like that. Its name is Bulat. Will be part of the armament of the new AIFV´s. A dedicated version like the Kornet-D will likely follow.

    Nice photo and it shows the 57mm grenade launchers grenade has a huge payload with likely a very heavy HE charge for its calibre.

    We don't know its range yet but it could be 5-6km perhaps?

    The shape would be low drag... for its weight...

    But it wasn't made clear if it would be apart of the Kornet-EM complex. We saw the new Epoch module with Bulat missiles, but in a configuration we never seen with any version Kornet. Bulat could be it's own separate weapon system, and I'm talking about incorporating new smaller missiles in the existing Kornet-EM to give flexibility and persistence.

    I don't know, but they have revealed the extended range Kornet and the medium range general purpose Bulat and the extended range cheap Metis (3km range) missiles.... the latter are man portable and it is possible they might have a man portable Bulat launcher too... the point is that the Metis and Kornet are intended for MBTs and other targets while the Bulat is aimed at lighter targets... it would not surprise me if they didn't come up with a vehicle that carried a mix of these three missiles to allow a range of targets to be engaged.

    From memory the turret with Bulat also had four tubes for Kornet in two twin tube launchers on the sides of the turret for MBT engagement, while the Bulat is used for other IFV type targets while the main gun was a 57mm grenade launcher with good HE power for the majority of battlefield targets...

    I would think in a COIN operation using more lighter cheaper missiles might make sense but for combat units the Kornet is there to deal with long range aircraft and MBT targets so I doubt they would replace all their missiles with smaller models..

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