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    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons

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    iraqidabab

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    Post  iraqidabab on Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:31 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Iraq still has not purchased MAWS for their Havocs...that will end bad.

    It gives a bad image of the MI-28 if it gets shot down, Russia should push MAWS onto the Iraqi MoD and make them realize with the Iraqi MI-35 shot down incident how important it is, then they'll understand.
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:47 pm

    It is partially Mil's fault.

    Ka-52 has been flying with DIRCM and MAWS for a while now.
    Even RuAF is not buying Mi-28 with MAWS yet, even through we have seen that Mi-28NE flying around with MAWS sensors....

    Incomprehensible.

    However, the Mi-28 is very well armored, so can take a hit. Also, if they just use them at night, they are practically safe from any ISIS attacks.

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    Post  Werewolf on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:09 pm

    TR1 wrote:It is partially Mil's fault.

    Ka-52 has been flying with DIRCM and MAWS for a while now.
    Even RuAF is not buying Mi-28 with MAWS yet, even through we have seen that Mi-28NE flying around with MAWS sensors....

    Incomprehensible.

    However, the Mi-28 is very well armored, so can take a hit. Also, if they just use them at night, they are practically safe from any ISIS attacks.


    Yes, i think Mil is kind of to blame but helicopters during night won't be that safe, because there were instances were during Night with enough moon light and just enough clouds, the Apache helicopters were visible when flying in LOS of shining clouds and launcher, so they shot down at least one Apache with gunfire and some bigger calibres and some MANPAD.

    The problem with the Mi-35M is, it indeed has 360° coverage with MAWS (SPO-15ML) pulse doppler radar that tracks incoming objects, but at certain ranges, you will get hit before the threat will be noticed by the system. The SPO needs 0.5 seconds to react and when launching MANPADS from beneath 1km i doubt that they would even have a chance to react, unless they do it manuel like Soviets died, by entering a combat zone with already deploying counter measures to reduce the chances for a lockon. The other point i have read the Mi-35M was probably shot down with FN-6 with a new Imagine Infrared Seeker and currently the only effective solution against such seekers are DIRCM's which no Attack Helicopter has except Ka-52. So Iraq would need to push themselfs to purchase both, MAWS and DIRCM's, or get shot down out of the sky, lose freaking expensive birds and maybe pilots and make a bad publicity.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:30 pm

    Deploying the most modern counter measures are out of question, even the money can't be designated to that as there's other priorities in the military. MAWS upgrades should be enough, FN-6 came from terrorist state qatar, ISIS has few compared to the quantity of Soviet era Iglas/Strelas they have.

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    Post  Werewolf on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:39 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Deploying the most modern counter measures are out of question, even the money can't be designated to that as there's other priorities in the military. MAWS upgrades should be enough, FN-6 came from terrorist state qatar, ISIS has few compared to the quantity of Soviet era Iglas/Strelas they have.


    How much money has Iraq to spend to buy new Mi-28NE and Mi-35M?

    This is just pure ignorance that humans show constantly. "There is no need for seatbelts, just drive safe"...
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    Post  TR1 on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:49 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:It is partially Mil's fault.

    Ka-52 has been flying with DIRCM and MAWS for a while now.
    Even RuAF is not buying Mi-28 with MAWS yet, even through we have seen that Mi-28NE flying around with MAWS sensors....

    Incomprehensible.

    However, the Mi-28 is very well armored, so can take a hit. Also, if they just use them at night, they are practically safe from any ISIS attacks.


    Yes, i think Mil is kind of to blame but helicopters during night won't be that safe, because there were instances were during Night with enough moon light and just enough clouds, the Apache helicopters were visible when flying in LOS of shining clouds and launcher, so they shot down at least one Apache with gunfire and some bigger calibres and some MANPAD.

    The problem with the Mi-35M is, it indeed has 360° coverage with MAWS (SPO-15ML) pulse doppler radar that tracks incoming objects, but at certain ranges, you will get hit before the threat will be noticed by the system. The SPO needs 0.5 seconds to react and when launching MANPADS from beneath 1km i doubt that they would even have a chance to react, unless they do it manuel like Soviets died, by entering a combat zone with already deploying counter measures to reduce the chances for a lockon. The other point i have read the Mi-35M was probably shot down with FN-6 with a new Imagine Infrared Seeker and currently the only effective solution against such seekers are DIRCM's which no Attack Helicopter has except Ka-52. So Iraq would need to push themselfs to purchase both, MAWS and DIRCM's, or get shot down out of the sky, lose freaking expensive birds and maybe pilots and make a bad publicity.

    You sure you are not confusing MAWS with RWR? I have not noticed any optical sensor windows on the Mi-35M.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:52 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    iraqidabab wrote:Deploying the most modern counter measures are out of question, even the money can't be designated to that as there's other priorities in the military. MAWS upgrades should be enough, FN-6 came from terrorist state qatar, ISIS has few compared to the quantity of Soviet era Iglas/Strelas they have.


    How much money has Iraq to spend to buy new Mi-28NE and Mi-35M?

    This is just pure ignorance that humans show constantly. "There is no need for seatbelts, just drive safe"...

    You're right, after all a cost-benefit analysis would point obviously point out defense upgrades are less costly than losinga birds. This deal was signed in 2012 by the former government, the new MoD is more knowledgable as some sources confirm therefor we might see the upgrades being purchased in the coming deal. The Mi-17 which the prime minister uses has MAWS as well.

    In a new vid the American ambassador spoke positively about the Mod when it comes to military knowledge/plans.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:03 am

    It's like spending 30 million and then saving another 1 million.

    On that note, Russia is buying Su-30SM without the full defensive suit of the Su-35. WTF!
    Hugely expensive fighter, that will serve for decades, and it was not worth the time and money to put missile launch warning sensors? Really?

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    Post  iraqidabab on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:09 am

    You see even Russia does things like that, I don't understand why unless they plan the upgrades later as they're not in a hurry, in Iraq's case it was simply the stupidity of the former government, the new one is a lot better with more qualified ministers.
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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:34 am

    The old LIP MAWS which are pusle doppler radar based this little horns you see behind pilot cockpit infront slightly above the crew compartment door (sometimes right beneath WSO cockpit)are AFAIK based today on SPO-15ML. Mi-35M/Mi-24V/P already have RWR which you can spot on this white little blisters.

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    Maybe it is not but i've seen the sensor without housing and it is identical with SPO-15 sensor and definitley not RWR but MAWS based on pulse doppler.


    You see even Russia does things like that, I don't understand why unless they plan the upgrades later as they're not in a hurry, in Iraq's case it was simply the stupidity of the former government, the new one is a lot better with more qualified ministers.

    Yes, but for Mi-28N it is already planned to equip them with a confirmed date for the Mi-28NM by end 2015 or early 2016 with MAWS and DIRCM, probably even with jammers.

    I find it indeed mind buggling purchasing for several dozen millions new fancy stuff and than not willing to spend half a million or a million more to keep them safe, like little 6 year old children that eat all their candy right away and can not manage their budget for longer term than just procurement and then turn a blind eye on anything that happens after.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:43 am

    I am not sure, come to think of it. The only mention of LIP I see is from Overscans....Yefim Gordon says nothing about it, and most Russian sources talk about LIP in the nickname LIPA, which is well known IR bulb.

    Pulse doplar of that size....would be near worthless no?
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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:57 am

    TR1 wrote:I am not sure, come to think of it. The only mention of LIP I see is from Overscans....Yefim Gordon says nothing about it, and most Russian sources talk about LIP in the nickname LIPA, which is well known IR bulb.

    Pulse doplar of that size....would be near worthless no?

    I am searching for the developer or any russian source mentioning it, but so far no direct information except the overscans, but pulse doppler radars can actually be very effecient for several km, will know more when i eventually find it.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:23 am

    Pulse doplar of that size....would be near worthless no?

    Come on guys... ARENA and Drozd have been using small fixed radar for the purpose of detecting incoming threats for a couple of decades now (latter tested in 1988 in Afghanistan), do you really think a longer wave system with better range is that hard?

    I rather suspect the problem for Mil is that there were a few things they have wanted to change with the Havoc including the gun arrangement to make it more aerodynamic and also able to hold more ready to use ammo. They have clearly only recently perfected the radar and are still perfecting the self defence suite. For Russia the armour protection means that in peace time getting an effective modern self defence suite that works is more use than some cobbled together system that might not be 100% ready but can be fitted now.

    For Iraq they might not want a cobbled together one either, but the last video posted above I can see that either side of the upper ball sensor turret there are small white dot sensors that are part of the self defence suite. It would not be impossible for them to have the wing tip mounted pods with forward and rear facing sensors and chaff and flare launchers, so it is not like they are naked.
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    Post  Werewolf on Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:30 am

    Come on guys... ARENA and Drozd have been using small fixed radar for the purpose of detecting incoming threats for a couple of decades now (latter tested in 1988 in Afghanistan), do you really think a longer wave system with better range is that hard?

    The case of such pulse doppler radar based MAWS were also critized exactly for the fact that they have to much range and could notify enemy SHORAD,Radars and any other SAM long before entering their air space/weapon range.
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    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 03, 2015 5:24 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Pulse doplar of that size....would be near worthless no?

    Come on guys... ARENA and Drozd have been using small fixed radar for the purpose of detecting incoming threats for a couple of decades now (latter tested in 1988 in Afghanistan), do you really think a longer wave system with better range is that hard?


    Totally different principle. Arena detects it right at the last moment, which is fine for interception.

    If you had a 1970s level tech radar in that tiny Mi-24 bulb, what good what it do? Whole point is to give the helicopter warning time.
    I just don't believe it would work well, not versus the expected targets, tiny MANPADS. Soviet radars of the time were hardly miniaturized and space effective.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:09 pm

    Does Russia still manufacture new SU-25/39's ?
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:31 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Does Russia still manufacture new SU-25/39's ?

    I don't think so, from my understanding their just modernizing legacy era Su-25's.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:13 pm

    iraqidabab wrote:Does Russia still manufacture new SU-25/39's ?

    Ulan-Ude can still manufacture Su-25UB. They made two seaters back in Soviet times, while Tbilsi made single seat birds.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:19 am

    The case of such pulse doppler radar based MAWS were also critized exactly for the fact that they have to much range and could notify enemy SHORAD,Radars and any other SAM long before entering their air space/weapon range.

    My understanding of the system is that it is a low energy MMW radar system that pretty much only detects the presence and general direction of an incoming threat.

    It has no tracking capability.

    Totally different principle. Arena detects it right at the last moment, which is fine for interception.

    The ARENA system ignores anything detected at greater than 50m because it is not relevant to the system. That is not to say it can't detect things at greater distances...

    I would say the system on the Hind is almost EXACTLY like ARENA... except instead of launching a munition to intercept the incoming threat, it warns the pilots of a threat and its direction and fires flares and chaff automatically.

    If you had a 1970s level tech radar in that tiny Mi-24 bulb, what good what it do? Whole point is to give the helicopter warning time.

    I think you are confusing the term radar here... you might be thinking BARS, but in actual fact it is more like the simple units in 1950s planes that can get a direction and range to a target but not much else.

    Think of the MMW submunitions in Smerch rockets in 1988... they scan in the direction the self forging fragment is aiming at... the parachute attached to the submunition makes it spin as it falls so the sensor scans a circular pattern as it falls... if it detects a lump of flat metal it fires... nothing complex or super advanced... it is like the laser at the door of a shop that rings a bell or buzzer when someone goes in or out (ie breaks the beam).

    Does Russia still manufacture new SU-25/39's ?

    Russian produces the two seater Su-25UB which is also the basis for the Su-25TM (Su-39).

    An Mi-17 with MAWS has crashed in Iraq, it's unknown whether shot down or an accident but someone said MANPAD.

    Sadly MAWS don't make an aircraft 100% safe.

    Iraq is really turning in to a military equipment grave yard.

    War is a test. A training ground. For those without men on the ground you can call it a game, but the things at stake make such terms irrelvant... there is too much at stake to call it a mere game.
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    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:47 am

    Where are you getting the info that it actually is MMW radar?

    I have never seen any mention of MMW radar defensive suits on any HIND. The only mention of a "warning system" is Overscan's mention (a very short one at that) of LIP...but looking over all other sources, Russian and English I think that is just a confusion with the LIPA IR jamming lamp by the rotors.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:15 am

    Where are you getting the info that it actually is MMW radar?

    How else could it possibly work?

    Simple radars in the noses of aircraft in 1940 were very simple range only devices.


    I have never seen any mention of MMW radar defensive suits on any HIND.

    the radio command guidance pod for the Shturm/Ataka missile operates at 35 GHz... which is in the MMW frequency range... not a radar, but a signal transmission device.

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    Post  TR1 on Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:17 am

    No, where are you getting info that that thing is a warning system at all?

    Because I am not finding anything to indicate that basically anywhere. Every mention is about RWR, nothing aside from Overscan's one mention.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:07 am

    Solution... it is RHAWs.

    Passive radar detector.

    Codename SPO-15LM.

    Web reference:

    http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/529/528/

    Clearly I was mistaken and was confusing the functions of the MMW radar on the Mi-28N with the Hind.
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    Post  Werewolf on Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:28 pm

    Ok found some information that sheds some light, not directly on the Beacons we are discussing but on the white blisters that according to dozens of sources are Radar Warning Recievers, they still may be but...

    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 17 4p4qq74r
    Iraq turns its eye on Russian weapons - Page 17 X5pgzp3i

    http://kret.com/en/product/33/

    They are technically Radar based IFF sensors, while almost every source states them as being RWR, some indeed are RWR sensors, but that slims down that the suppossed LIP MAWS are SPO-15ML RWR, still searching to verify both of the systems.
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    Post  iraqidabab on Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:58 pm

    Twitter: Talks between #Iraq and #Russia's Rosoboronexport are reportedly still ongoing regarding Iraq's purchase of the T-90 tank.

    What we need in Iraq is local assembly of T-90's and BMPT's. This will allow the local engineers to repair tanks and give people jobs. If possible later-on producing T-90's or the next gen tank on license.

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