Pantsir-S1 News Thread:

Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar? that would be a good capability to have!
(no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

Yes it can. Using its optical channel.

When using fire and forget missiles you still need you radar (search and fire) turned on.

Viktor wrote:
- answer questions
- reply to other people
- talk about radar system .... and the list will go on


Let me ask you something. Why are you trolling?

i can talk about it later we can touch that subject. besides pesa is nothing special for such an overpriced severly lacking system. Infact pantcir has had a very troubled developmental path with several iterations untill it became what is it today. Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me. the moment you start with personal insults you are the one losing the argument you are the defeated side. i talked about radars before we can continue after the analysys of thermal imagery.

I would like a link to your claim french and russian teams are working joint venture on next generation of thermal imagers. Tnx.

Viktor wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar? that would be a good capability to have!
(no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

Yes it can. Using its optical channel.

When using fire and forget missiles you still need you radar (search and fire) turned on.

so it cant

Rpg type 7v wrote:you cant compare price of panttcirs with patriot , its a totally different thing , you have to compare pantcir with other short range airdefence systems , and patriot with s-300pmu or other... to each its own.
its funny because french wont let you have ,even licence produce ,their best equipment for sure....
so french air defense systems crotale etc. for certain have better quality electro-optical-infrared aperture then pantcir which puts them ahead of it!
so french short range systems in passive mode are better then the russian.
(i dont want to discuss radars for now.)

You are talking out of your ass.

Once again, go educate yourself on other SHORAD systems.
Seriously, this is getting really really stupid.

Rpg type 7v wrote:can pantcir destroy its target(s) in completely passive mode without turning on its radar?
that would be a good capability to have!




(no it cant ,i doesnt have fire and forget missiles)

You understand the only weapons that can do that are heat homers, right?

Fire and forget missiles need to lock on to a target as well. If they have an active-seeker, on a missile the size of Pantsir's, their range would be laughable.

Rpg type 7v wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?

I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

How is this relevant?
Woo gave you the idea the point of the Pantsir is supposed to deny airspace for the F-35?
And what fairy tales do you live in that the EOADS knows exactly where to scan for a small truck and lock on to it dozens of kilometers away with impunity? You understand how unlikely such a scenario is?

Good grief...

Garry:
-No they don't, the second stage has a small sustainer, so the speed loss is not constant. It is very unlikely that targets would be engaged while moving except in an extreme emergency.

-1.3km/s is the top speed and it reaches that speed after about 1.0 second, so for the first second it can be considered to have covered 1.3km to the target and the 70m/s/s is an average over 20km, which means it is probably much less inside the first 10km than it is for the second 10km of its 20km range, which makes your numbers wrong.

-------------------
-I thnik you are wrong second stage is just explosives actuators proxy fuses and tail beacon. no sustainer !

-Drop off in speed is actually highest at 1,2 km/s separation, because of the higher drag you know ,then latter when the speed of the second stage drops.

-garry you make 2 very big mistakes!

TR1 wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:

GarryB wrote:

Well its quite easy -actually f-35s can stay around 30km away from the pantcir where the can use stealth so to stay undetected (and even if spotted from time to time it cant touch them anyway) , and lob off cruise missiles in a well coordinated attack.

How does the F-35 know it is 30km away from Pantsir?
How does it know whether there is a Pantsir-S1 directly below it for example? How does it know when it is or is not detected?

The fact of the matter is that the F-35 is not even in service yet and it doesn't even know if it is safe or not...

In a one on one engagement how many guided weapons can a single F-35 fire at a single Pantsir to try to destroy it?

I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

How is this relevant?
Woo gave you the idea the point of the Pantsir is supposed to deny airspace for the F-35?
And what fairy tales do you live in that the EOADS knows exactly where to scan for a small truck and lock on to it dozens of kilometers away with impunity? You understand how unlikely such a scenario is?

Good grief...

Thats the whole point of SAM.
Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
People die because of flawed systems.

Every source points to a sustainer engine in the 2nd stage.

Really ??? Then give me your sources !
Second stage sustainer rocket engine. plz.

"The missile requirement led to the unusual two stage 9M311 design, in which the first stage boosted the round to 900 m/s at burnout, the sustainer in the terminal stage burning to impact and maintaining a 600 m/s velocity."

That's for Tunguska. Sources for Pantsir seem to vary.

9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

Rpg type 7v wrote:9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

But it is a shorter-ranged predecessor.
Presumably the Pantsir's missiles takes on a more robust method of achieving its increased range.

Thats the whole point of SAM.
Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
People die because of flawed systems.

I don't think you understand what SHORAD means, and the role of Pantsir, at all, if you think it is supposed to deny airspace to the F-35.
By this logic, any short range system is pointless.

GarryB wrote:
I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
.

i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
, 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

TR1 wrote:

Rpg type 7v wrote:9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

But it is a shorter-ranged predecessor.
Presumably the Pantsir's missiles takes on a more robust method of achieving its increased range.

big fat extreme fast burning booster and thin slim lightweight second stage. but no sustainer there . well this is quite an uninformed crowd here....

Funny how you fail to respond to many of the points brought up against you.

Still you fail to understand the very point of SHORAD. Very amusing.

Please write to all the nations that have purchased this world-class system, and tell them you know its weaknesses

Rpg type 7v wrote:

GarryB wrote:
I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
.

i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
, 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

LOL! You are a funny guy.

That system requires at least 4-5 seperate gun modules, and radar and tracking modules, all terrible immobile, to achieve any sort of reliable kill ratios.
It is archaic to put lightly.

ANd you compare that to one Pantsir truck?!?!

LMAO!

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/bmpd/38024980/402605/402605_600.jpg

Very well protected, mobile, and hard to find and destroy system I am sure.

Rpg type 7v wrote:

GarryB wrote:
I believe you have forgotten the two twin barrel 30mm cannon spitting out 5,000rpm of 30 x 165mm cannon shells that puts the dead in the 2km dead zone around the Pantsir.
.

i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way
, 30mm it looks quite pathetic, compared to this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg&playnext=1&list=PL3qYiMswhauAISZLwUQFxUNDiAGfMlHkZ

Iran have better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdsAhQjmol8

What's even funnier is that 35mm used on MANTIS is NOT brand new, and is an Oerlikon design dating back many decades.
So how exactly is Pantsir's 30mm cannons pathetic?
Because they are smaller? Well then, I guess Medo is right, and Iran has one better than anyone .

Rpg type 7v wrote:I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

1. if you intend to fly around with F-35 looking for some Pancir-S1 than I guess F-35 will be dead before it finds anything

2. same triangulation method can be used to find F-35 and at point when F-35 enters Pancir-S1 engagement envelope give order to shoot it

down. This is no problem.

3. F-35 has really small internal weapon bay where it does not carry no where near enough weaponry to penetrate even a single Pancir-S1.

Its missiles/bombs would get shoot down and than F-35 itself.

4. Pancir-S1 can use natural hideout or camouflage nets to conceal its presence and work in passive mode or even on active

5. F-35 can catch false decoy radar emissions and fall in the Pancir-S1 trap

6. etc etc etc

Rpg type 7v wrote:i can talk about it later

Like with everything else.

Rpg type 7v wrote:we can touch that subject. besides pesa is nothing special for such an overpriced severly lacking system. Infact pantcir has had a very troubled developmental path with several iterations untill it became what is it today

Provide links where it says it is lacking or flawed or even overpriced.

Rpg type 7v wrote:it became what is it today

And what is PANCIR-S1 today?

Rpg type 7v wrote:But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me.

What needs improving?

Rpg type 7v wrote:the moment you start with personal insults you are the one losing the argument you are the defeated side.

Arguments? This is what your level of conversation looks like.

Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

Rpg type 7v wrote:so it cant

No radar is needed to fire missiles with optical guidance channel. Even a version of Pancir-S1 with single optical channel

was made. Now you did not know that?

Well to draw to an end this big fail of yours here you go.

Rpg type 7v wrote:Thats the whole point of SAM.
Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
People die because of flawed systems.

That point is something vastly beyond your understanding. The primary mission of Pancir-S1 is to work with other air defense assets

and with radar coverage and aviation form a protective layer of air defense systems.

That includes vast amounts of different systems all working together under control of command post.

Of course ability to work alone, to repel areal attacks and ground even and to shoot multiple missiles at multiple targets

and to make nightmares to any western planes planing to invade a country armed with the Pancir-S1 is just one of its many pluses.

Rpg type 7v wrote:the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago

Not the same gun. Its vastly modernized with some hi-end solutions being implemented on a movingplatform.







Here is a missile in cross section - I dont read Russian but maybe TR1 might help about identification with the engine.

And still this is not the same missile Russians are using.

Rpg type 7v wrote:Also few more things , pantcir missiles drop in speed on average 70m/s/s ,

Nope, you are wrong as usual - its 40m/sec



So we are here talking about by far the most capable air defense system in the world and the cheapest one too.

I already answered this , because the Pancir search radar is like illuminating and f-35 with less then 0,1m2 RCS is undetectable to it even at 20km... it also picks up emissions even earlier at 30-40-50 km and triangulates using its advanced RWR .
Then EODAS can zoom in on the approximate area and pinpoint the pantcir truck.

OK... lets assume one Pantsir vehicle does turn its radar on to scan for targets and is detected by the F-35... what exactly can that F-35 do about it? Any weapon it might launch against the Pantsir-S1 can be shot down. Any weapon launch will confirm its presence and general location. Will all the air defence systems in this country be turned off too? What if none of the Pantsirs in the country turn on their radar and just scan optically for targets, or have mobile radar vehicles scanning and then moving every 2 minutes with a Pantsir regiment protecting them?

Even Russians make mistakes and have a few bastard children and dead end systems !

Early models were far less capable than Pantsir-S1, but were accepted by the Russian Army, which was happy with its performance.

UAE however was not and they spent the extra money for all new electronics and systems and new missiles and boosters and the new system Pantsir-S1 is the result.

But still there is allot of things that need to improve (which would increase already bloated price tag)... why you defend something even you dont belive in is beyond me.

You keep talking about things that need improvement but you never actually mention them.

Perhaps it would be easier to discuss your objections if you actually tell us what they are.

so it cant

The purpose of the optical system is to allow the vehicle to continue to engage targets under heavy jamming or SEAD attack. The search radar is turned off and the topical system is used to track both the missile and the target. The PESA tracking radar acts like a datalink to send guidance commands to the missile which is tracked optically, so the command beam will be pencil thin with almost non existent sidelobes... and they will not be continuous beams... just course corrections when needed. The chance of directional location of the vehicle at extended range is poor because it is in mmw radar frequency which is notoriously short ranged as it is absorbed by moisture in the atmosphere. You might detect faint emissions at 30km but only if the beam was directed directly at your aircraft... a few degrees either side and you would detect nothing.

Much like the F-16 that destroyed that Patriot battery... the narrow beams meant it could only launch a HARM because the battery had his aircraft locked with a continuous beam... very thin though it was his ARM was able to fly down the beam all the way to the antenna.

Wouldn't happen with the pantsir-S1 as that beam is not continuous.

You understand the only weapons that can do that are heat homers, right?

Fire and forget missiles need to lock on to a target as well. If they have an active-seeker, on a missile the size of Pantsir's, their range would be laughable.

To get true fire and forget you would need either IIR seeker, an IR seeker, or an ARH radar seeker... the IR seeker is not that reliable and IIR and ARH seekers are enormously expensive to put into something that will explode when used properly.

-I thnik you are wrong second stage is just explosives actuators proxy fuses and tail beacon. no sustainer !

The second stage weighs 74kgs, of which 20kgs is the warhead... use a bit of common sense. Hint... the R-73 has proximity fuses and actuators and 11kgs of explosives and it weighs 105kgs and has a launch range of 45kms against head on targets. The R-73 also has an IR seeker, which the SA-22 does not.

-garry you make 2 very big mistakes!

The only mistake I have seen is that burnout of the booster section happens after 2.4 seconds of flight and top speed is 1300m/s.

Look at this page:

http://kbptula.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=410&lang=en

and click on the link to the right under System Components in the combat assets section there is a link called surface to air missile, which opens up a small window.

In that window it clearly states that a time-2.4 the missiles max velocity is 1,300m/s.

Then it says "short ballistic delay during no-booster flight (40 m/s for 1 km of track);"

In other words when the booster burns out the reduction in flight speed over distance... ie drag, is 40m/s for 1km of flight.

Thats the whole point of SAM.
Unlikely as it might be it is still possible.
People die because of flawed systems.

Really? So Stinger and Igla are pointless?

Different SAMS have different roles. The fact that an Igla will likely never kill an F-35... unless they try to replace the A-10 with some sort of A-35, does not make it a failure.

Pantsir is not supposed to be shooting down F-35s either... its primary role is either to defend larger SAMs like S-400... that will shoot down F-35s, from any guided weapon that might be directed at the S-400. It has the height 15km and range 20km to perform some of the missions previously only medium range SAMs could perform, but it is still a SHORAD.

Judging it negatively because it can't replace all SAMs... well you clearly don't understand its role... it will never work alone in Russia... in some third country against another countries air force that is not NATO it might be a jack of all trades, but that is not what it was designed for.

Really ??? Then give me your sources !
Second stage sustainer rocket engine. plz.

On the above page average speed at 18km is 700m/s, and a speed loss of 40m/s per kms suggests either they have a physics breakthrough, or a sustainer motor to overcome most of the effects of drag.

9m311 is not the missile on pantcir .

No. It is the great grandfather of the current missile. But as not terminal guidance system has been added do you think they took out that sustainer rocket motor and replaced it with ballast?

i belive even its guns are primitive and quite mediocre compared to todays modern a-a gunns. the 30mm pantcir is using is the same as gunns 30 years ago ,they dont even evolve in some mechanical or constructional way

Two twin barrel guns that offer the same rate of fire as the six barrel gatling guns of the AK-630, but with rigid barrels offering superior accuracy and built in liquid evapouration cooling... yeah they were mounted on the ark, but Noah removed them because they were rubbish.



WOW... that was crap. A clip fed gun system presumably whose muzzle blast is so horrendous that the optics and radar has to be mounted on a completely separate platform (added cost of needing extra vehicles and single point of failure where the optics and radar vehicle gets smoked by an ARM then the gun vehicles become useless). Looking at the shells I would say they were the same 35mm rounds they have been using for decades but in a gatling gun that does not look all that impressive in terms of rate of fire... presumably because it seems to be clip fed rather than belt fed.

The targets were pathetically close and all subsonic... Pantsir can engage supersonic targets flying at up to 1000m/s as low as 2 metres off the water and up to 15km up and 18km distant with guns and missiles.

The whole idea of Tunguska and Pantsir is to reduce costs by combining the huge advantages of guns and missiles... they compliment each other, while having all the best optics and radars on one vehicle.

Tunguska is not cheap, but it is cheaper than an SA-13 vehicle AND a Shilka, yet it is much more capable... the 30mm guns reach to 4km compared with 2.5km for 23mm shilka, and the missiles reach 8 and then 10 and then 12 and now 20km compared with 5km for SA-13.

The amusing thing is that this German system has a network where the sensors are separate from the weapon platform... Pantsir can do that too and can remain radar and radio silent and receive target data and engage targets passively.

The video ends with the claim of 1,000 shots per minute... EACH twin barrel 2A38M gun on the Pantsir-S1 and Tunguska fires 2,500 rpm, with two guns that is 5 times higher rate of fire, which means bursts can be much shorter and arrive on target in a cluster like a shotgun blast rather than a stream of bullets... there is a reason shotguns are used for shooting small fast targets.


The huge irony of course is that the new HERMES system is unified in design with the SS-22, and it will have MMW radar and IIR as well as SALH and Glonass guided versions, which means.... in theory they could use an IIR guided or MMW radar guided missile against air targets (like Vikhr and ATAKA can be used against aircraft too), but it is very unlikely they would do such a thing because terminal guidance seekers make the missiles much more expensive.

It is a bit like buying a really cheap printer and finding out the ink costs $200 for each colour so that $100 printer costs $800 dollars to replace all the ink... (black and three primary colours).

If Pantsir was designed by our friend it would be the ultimate western weapon... amazing on paper but too expensive to actually use or train with.

i always loved this system and this discussion was an amazing summary for me

anyway i found an interesting system in the German inventory it is the 1A2 Gepard anti-aircraft how it's stand against the Pantsir-S1? if anyone already heard about it

The Gepard is a good vehicle that is not cheap.

It makes up for its low rate of fire (500rpm per gun) by using rather powerful ammo... it is sort of an intermediate step between a 30mm gun and a 57mm gun.

The problem is that it is actually older than the Tunguska and it is an expensive luxury in the west that tends to prefer air power to deal with enemy air power rather than letting the army deal with enemy air power.

The Pantsir-s1 combines powerful enough guns with a high rate of fire and plenty of onboard ready to fire ammo (1,400 rounds) with missiles able to reach much further and higher than any air defence gun.

Simply put guns are useful as a last line, they are cheap and multipurpose and can be used for warning shots or shots at ground targets. They do however lack range and altitude. Missiles are more expensive but have a much higher kill probability and reach further, higher and faster than shells.

Guns and missiles compliment each other and by putting them on the same vehicle you reduce costs. The SA-13 and Shilka were useful in their own right, but the Tunguska had more ready to fire missiles, of longer range, and much more powerful cannon ammo at a slightly higher rate of fire from two guns instead of four.

Pantsir-S1 takes it further with up to 12 ready to fire missiles with double the range of Tunguskas missiles and the same guns.

The secret is to spend money on the vehicle, not the missiles.

Javelin has thermal imagers in its missiles, but because they go boom they aren't high tech best of the best cameras because they only get used for less than a minute and then they are destroyed.

The thermals in the Pantsir-S1 are state of the art, while the missiles have no terminal guidance seekers at all... they are just dumb command guided missiles like TOW or HOT that are cheap and easy to make... the result is a capable system that is cheap to use, so you can buy enormous stocks of missiles fairly cheaply and actually use them in peace time and war.

They will sell like hot cakes.

When the air launched version is available... called HERMES, it will be an even more popular system.

That cutout of the upper stage shows no rocket motor whatsoever. all the subcomponents shown behind the warhead have nothing to do with motor.