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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:05 am

    The hull interior is gutted. No carousel for one so there is plenty crew space.

    There is no carousel space on the Armata chassis which the Coalition turret is designed for so there wont be any carousel space when fitted to the T-90... which leaves no space for the commander and gunner.

    During tests that is OK because cables connected to the turret would allow the commander and gunner to operate the turret remotely.... perhaps in a van for the purposes of testing, but it would clearly only be a temporary setup.

    Well, if you change the road wheel spacings, lengthen the hull, change the engine, change the transmission to an electromechanical transmission (just saying), change the seating arrangement, reduce the armor thickness to 2 cm, ..., then why do you say it uses a T-90 chassis?

    Why change any of that? If they are using the T-90 hull for testing then it would make sense to not modify it very much at all... there is no point as this is just a temporary turret holder till the armata is ready.

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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Why change any of that? If they are using the T-90 hull for testing then it would make sense to not modify it very much at all... there is no point as this is just a temporary turret holder till the armata is ready.

    But the images shown in the last few pages [seem to] show the road wheels actually have larger spacing. This seem to also apply to the double-barreled variant of the Koalitsiya that was mounted on a chassis that used T-80 style road wheels; you can see an image of this variant a few pages back.
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    Post  TR1 on Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:23 am

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    TR1 wrote:The hull interior is gutted. No carousel for one so there is plenty crew space.

    Well, if you change the road wheel spacings, lengthen the hull, change the engine, change the transmission to an electromechanical transmission (just saying), change the seating arrangement, reduce the armor thickness to 2 cm, ..., then why do you say it uses a T-90 chassis?

    Nothing else, thats why.
    You are speculating on most of those changes btw, just wait until we see the uncovered vehicle.
    There was that universal T-90 chassis:

    http://i58.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/71/b2fc4a0e5b1df811e048575d51e67a71.jpg

    Which had space for more crew in the hull. It is not exactly a hard solution. Same with armor.

    Armata is well known to not be ready for Koalition yet.

    The image you posted is not a T-90 chassis. I believe it was called Eh300. It has some commonality with T-90, for example, it is using T-90's road wheels. In reality the differences it has with a T-90 chassis is what I listed above, except for that of the electromechanical transmission.

    A tank chassis is never suitable for an SP artillery system like Koalitsiya. A heavily modified tank chassis is a different matter.

    Anyway, what I am saying is that the road wheel spacing in the latest pictures seem to be larger than those in the T-90; so the chassis can't be just a downarmored variant of a T-90 chassis.

    Eh has a suspension based on the T-90s, and the same engine. That is pretty much commonality as far as universal chassis go. Armata is on a heavily modified T-90 offshoot. How heavily we can debate but I'd rather wait for good photos.

    I see what you are saying about the wheel spacing, but that falls within "modified" T-90 chassis. Just indicates what they started working with.

    Does not really matter, just that it is not Armata yet.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:42 am

    Shifting the wheel spacing is nothing... the only powered wheels are the front drive sprockets, so moving the wheel positions just means removing the existing wheel mounts and attaching new ones to support the different load.

    When the Turret is full of 152mm ammo most of the weight of the vehicle will be to the rear so changing the wheel spacing to allow for the extra weight at the rear makes perfect sense.

    On a MBT the turret centralises the weight of the turret front armour and the gun into the centre of the vehicle, so a MBTs wheel spacing is even because the three main weights on a tank... hull front armour, turret, and engine are fairly evenly spaced.

    And as mentioned... this is a T series tank that is already in service chassis... the Armata chassis is not ready yet.

    I would speculate as they are making two armata chassis, one with the engine at the rear and one with the engine in the front allowing rear access to the hull for troops or ammo etc that the chassis for troops/artillery/ambulance version/etc might be slightly longer than the model with the engine to the rear that will be the MBT model. Of course with the ammo in the turret perhaps the Coalition might be based on the rear engine chassis, or it could be based on the engine forward model to allow even more ammo loaded directly into the rear hull.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:51 am

    GarryB wrote:Shifting the wheel spacing is nothing...

    I don't think you have really understood the discussion above. You should ask somebody with more time to explain some of the fundamentals to you.
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    Post  George1 on Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:42 pm

    New photos of Koalition SPG delivered for practice for the VIctory day parade?

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 7 R9SBu56FNNE
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:20 am

    That pics resolution is infuriating.
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:25 am

    Take it off!
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:37 am

    With crew.

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 7 QIKM--shV4I
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:44 am

    One more:

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 7 -IXnBG6h-lQ

    Looks like a higher res pic that was downsized. Fuuuuu
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    Post  Regular on Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:28 am

    Can You guys tell me what new doest it offer compared to recent modification of MSTA seen in expos?


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    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:33 am

    Regular wrote:Can You guys tell me what new doest it offer compared to recent modification of MSTA seen in expos?



    Fifth generation. Nanotechnology. Net analogov v myre.
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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:01 pm

    Regular wrote:Can You guys tell me what new doest it offer compared to recent modification of MSTA seen in expos?

    Koalitsiya is an extremely high rate of fire gun, irrespective of its single-barrel or double barrel developments. Koalitsiya is in a totally new class with respect to its rate of fire.

    As I have written previously on this forum, a higher rate of fire increases the destructive capability of an artillery system on a per round basis. This is the main rational behind the development of Koalitsiya.

    In term of ballistics/range it is superior to even 2S5, which itself is in a totally different class than that of Msta-S. It should be kept in mind that 2S5 was/is an <army level>/<operational command level> gun, while Msta-S was/is a divisional/brigade level gun.

    In terms of an analogy, Koalitsiya to Msta is like an automatic rifle to a semiautomatic pistol.
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:54 pm

    Regular wrote:Can You guys tell me what new doest it offer compared to recent modification of MSTA seen in expos?



    Those radar fuses are alone a huge deal.
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    Post  cracker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:02 pm

    uhhhh... not sure what you mean dude.

    2S19 and 2S5 fire the same ammo, and have practically the same range. 2S5 is mostly a cheaper artillery system, while 2S19 is more recent and totally enclosed, much more armored, much more automated. The 2S19 is intended for armored troops mostly, following tanks in all kinds of environement, while the 2S5 is a classic long range artillery.

    2S5 has a slightly longer barrel and maybe higher pressure tolerance, but ammo are strictly the same.

    2S3 however fire the same ammo too, but only limited to a smaller charge load than bigger systems (smaller load of propellant for the same case pattern I think)...


    Or am I totally wrong? In fact I think 2S3 and thus the D-20 howitzer, both use the WW2 (infact pre WW2) pattern cartridge, as used in ML-20, D-1 or ISU-152 systems.... while the Msta and Giatsint systems both use a newly developped case pattern, bigger.

    Koalitsya will use the same pattern ammo, or a brand new 3rd generation 152mm case?

    As far as I know, we can say 152mm systems are in two category:

    ML-20
    D-1
    SU / ISU-152
    D-20
    2S3 , are all "medium" power and range weapons, reaching 15-18km with standard ammo (much less for D-1 small howitzer)

    while 2A65
    2A36
    2S5
    2S19, are a level above, usually reaching 28-30km with standard ammo.

    Question is, where is Koalitsya? Judging by new gun, longer, higher pressure tolerance, and possibly new type of propellant for the cartridge (while retaining case pattern of 2S19 and having the ability to use old surplus ammo), i'd say 32 or 33km as standard is expectable, and if a new cartridge comes with it, somewhere between 35-40km
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    Post  TR1 on Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:09 pm

    Koalition has already been testing rounds at 48km.

    What rounds specifically, I can't say. (As in don't know, not being mysterious).
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    Post  cracker on Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:59 pm

    surely rocket assisted? I was only talking basic HE with full charge
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:07 am

    cracker wrote:surely rocket assisted? I was only talking basic HE with full charge

    I just double checked- yes.

    Normal shell range: 30km +.
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:24 am

    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm - Page 7 6485074

    The magical fuse? Maybe.

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    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:13 am

    cracker wrote:... 2S19 and 2S5 fire the same ammo, ...

    What does it take for a person that obviously has no understanding and no knowledge about the topic to so audaciously write the embarrassing statements that you wrote in your post, for everyone to see?

    Every one of your statements were embarrassingly incorrect or irrelevant.

    You could have at least taken the information that I had provided and gone to a few good references and checked them.

    Oh, I think I just now got it; I bet your source is a computer game.  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!

    Are you the same forum user as the other Russian guy, who used computer games as his source? He destroyed many threads because of that. Moderators, can you please check on this.


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Thu Mar 19, 2015 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:35 am

    2S5 has a slightly longer barrel and maybe higher pressure tolerance, but ammo are strictly the same.

    Not true.

    Or am I totally wrong? In fact I think 2S3 and thus the D-20 howitzer, both use the WW2 (infact pre WW2) pattern cartridge, as used in ML-20, D-1 or ISU-152 systems.... while the Msta and Giatsint systems both use a newly developped case pattern, bigger.

    Koalitsya will use the same pattern ammo, or a brand new 3rd generation 152mm case?

    As far as I know, we can say 152mm systems are in two category:

    ML-20
    D-1
    SU / ISU-152
    D-20
    2S3 , are all "medium" power and range weapons, reaching 15-18km with standard ammo (much less for D-1 small howitzer)

    while 2A65
    2A36
    2S5
    2S19, are a level above, usually reaching 28-30km with standard ammo.

    There is the D-1 152mm howitzer too, but it is obsolete... and has its own type of ammo.

    The 30F59 is a HE Frag projectile developed specifically for the 2S5 self propelled gun and the 2A36 towed version that is not used with the 2S19.

    The 30F45 and 30F64 HE frag rounds are used in the D-20, ML-20, the 2S3M, 2A65 and 2S19 guns... the difference in performance with the 2S3M and 2S19 is down to barrel length.

    They come with three charge options... long range, full charge, and reduced range charge. The reduced charge makes the round more accurate for use against close range targets using high elevation as the reduced charge greatly reduces flight time to target so it is less effected by wind and gives the target less time to move.

    Koalition has already been testing rounds at 48km.

    Early talk including information about the electronic fuses with Glonass guidance integrated mentioned 80km range for the ground and naval models, but later reports mentioned 70km with new ammo and about 45km with old ammo types.

    surely rocket assisted? I was only talking basic HE with full charge

    Most likely 70km with rocket assisted base bleed rounds.

    The magical fuse? Maybe.

    Pretty darn amazing... would vote you up but will have to wait till tomorrow... Smile

    What does it take for a person that obviously has no understanding and no knowledge about the topic to so audaciously write the embarrassing statements that you wrote in your post, for everyone to see?

    A keyboard...

    Are you the same forum user, as the other Russian guy, who used computer games as his source? He destroyed many threads because of that. Moderators, can you please check on this.

    Don't be so mean... imagine if I was mean and nasty and banned you for excessive use of smileys...

    He has put up his figures and information for everyone to see, now is the time for you to offer advice and corrections rather than abuse him and his parents... Razz

    Not everyone is as right as you... Twisted Evil
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    Post  cracker on Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:47 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    cracker wrote:... 2S19 and 2S5 fire the same ammo, ...

    What does it take for a person that obviously has no understanding and no knowledge about the topic to so audaciously write the embarrassing statements that you wrote in your post, for everyone to see?

    Every one of your statements were embarrassingly incorrect or irrelevant.

    You could have at least taken the information that I had provided and gone to a few good references and checked them.

    Oh, I think I just now got it; I bet your source is a computer game.  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!

    Are you the same forum user as the other Russian guy, who used computer games as his source? He destroyed many threads because of that. Moderators, can you please check on this.

    Nice way to correct someone, if you read my message you'll see "maybe i'm wrong but i always thought:"

    WTF are you even talking about, other russian guy, computer games? destroyed threads? please stop smoking crack dunno

    so please, educate me, well of knowledge you are. I want the cartridge size of all 152mm systems. The brass or steel case of all 152mm systems, how many types are they? which system uses what? giatsint has its own larger case than msta? and msta uses the same as the 2S3? And ww2 152mm like ML-20 is even different? i'm not talking about shells, i know shells evolued and many types exist, only the casings. I know about various charge loadings, what I ask is the object itself, the casings.

    And why would russians do that, field 2 totally different 152mm ammo totally uncompatible? And what koalitsya uses then, the same as giatsint?
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    Post  TR1 on Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:16 pm

    Garry the 48km was rocket assisted.

    Normal rounds were in the 30-35km+ range.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:50 am

    Garry the 48km was rocket assisted.

    Normal rounds were in the 30-35km+ range.

    Well that is pathetic, considering they can got standard rounds to 41km in 2011 from the 52 calibre MSTA...

    Source: http://izvestia.ru/news/501822


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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:15 pm


    And why would russians do that, field 2 totally different 152mm ammo totally uncompatible?

    Two very different jobs... the 2S5 was pretty much the replacement for the 130mm (M-46) field gun.

    Such large calibre guns use separate loading rounds so the projectiles are separate, while the propellent charges come in different sizes... the rounds used for the 2S3M and 2S19 use three charges... a very big long range charge, and two shorter charges for full power and reduced power charges.

    The propellent charges for the 2S5 come in only two versions full and reduced charge.

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