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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    Peŕrier

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:05 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:1 vehicle with 2 guns is a lot cheaper than 2 vehicle with 1 gun but I was talking about naval aplication in withc you do not have spave for more than 1 turret anymore so more  guns on the 1 turret is a good solution and dont try and tell me that 2 normal cruisers is cheaper than 1 with a bigger turret.

    as for autoloaders ships will not need APFSDS,HEAT and HE they just need HE so you do not need to change ammo while feeding and even if you did you would not remove the round from the chamber you would fire it and the next one would be the new type.

    If you mean buying 1 vehicle with 2 turrets instead of 2 with 1 turrets that's strategicaly stupid because if you lose 1 of them you have like 2 vehicles lost.

    That's a similar situation with western countries replacing 4 fighter/bombers/interceptors by just 1 multirole fighter. Instead of buying 400 planes of all sort they buy just 100. It's more difficult to sustain big operations like that.

    Technology is not so superior to to a numerical advantage specially if the enemy can destroy your costly new generation fighter or vehicles by missile like ATGM or Iskanders on the ground or in ambushes.

    My point is that 1 vehicle with 2 guns gives you the same firepower as 2 vehicles with 1 gun but costs less than 2 vehicles.

    I wonder if there will be a 180/203mm variant of the koalitsiya?

    Single gun artillery is perfectly acceptable for land warfare but simply will not fit the fire rate requirments for naval aplications you cant simply have more turrets on a ship to solve the problem .

    Sorry, but I cannot see why a naval application should require greater rate of fire.

    Usually in the past, numbers of guns were relevant because 90% or more shells would simply fell on water, far away from their intended targets, and single rate of fire was quite low.

    Today a radar assisted 130mm gun could easily fire 4 to 5 shells within 10 seconds, having around 50% on target on a moving target, more up to 100% on a stationary target.

    What a faster rate of fire should accomplish? Killing two times in a row the same poor guys or disabling two times the same ship?

    I think it is of far greater importance to expand the scope of artillery emplyment, i.e. developing intelligent munitions to cope with dispersed targets, highly mobile ones, hardened ones and so on.

    By the way, for very specific application in naval warfare, it could be of interest to develop automated large caliber artillery as old 175/203 mm, instead of exotic multiple barrels medium caliber guns.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 am

    I am hoping the 152mm guns are being developed for Destroyer sized vessels and that for larger vessels including landing vessels they might have a 203mm gun system.

    With variable propellant charges and multi angle fire you could launch about 5-6 shells at a target to all land at nearly the same time with one gun barrel, which should be plenty.

    Having two guns on the naval platform is only because that was how it was developed... why change it if you don't have to.

    For the land based gun they had to to get it to fit in aircraft and in rail cars and under rail bridges and tunnels.
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    George1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:48 pm

    As preliminary tests near completion - https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/917359581914857473 … - a trial batch of Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled howitzers is being readied for the official state trials, which should commence in the "near future".

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12152247@egNews
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    Cyberspec

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:31 am

    Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials
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    George1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:26 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials

    The picture was taken during a demonstration at a training ground in the Nizhny Novgorod region (Mulino?) In August 2017.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2971690.html
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    franco

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:53 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials

    Had heard of a wheeled version for Coastal artillery to replace the Bereg, but this looks like it would have other uses also.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:59 pm

    Tracked models have good mobility across rough country but are not usually that fast.

    Wheeled models can move long distances relatively quickly on a good road... and are cheaper to operate and maintain.
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:01 pm

    I have heard "the kaolitsiya is going to replace the MSTA" but that makes no sense as the MSTA is still way better than a lousy m109 and disposing of the Akatsiya is a waste of time.

    Russia should build up its artillery so it can rapidly level cities if needed.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 pm

    When can we expect the Coalitsiya tracked platform to enter service. Also are there any specifications for the new guided round?

    Anyway its funny that now that this SPG is built, western fanboys have gotten a lot quiter in discussing artillery. Before that they were blathering all day about the PzH2000 and that one korean howitzer.

    Also it should be mentioned that when westerners make a NATO vs Russia or USSR military comparison they barely mention artillery in their calculations.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:31 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:When can we expect the Coalitsiya tracked platform to enter service. Also are there any specifications for the new guided round?.............

    Pretty much any day now, of all the projects that one has been fastest by far
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    Militarov

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:31 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:I have heard "the kaolitsiya is going to replace the MSTA" but that makes no sense as the MSTA is still way better than a lousy m109 and disposing of the Akatsiya is a waste of time.

    Russia should build up its artillery so it can rapidly level cities if needed.

    Coalition will replace MSTA on a long run, short term no.

    M109A7 is quite good actually, tho i am in general not fan of M109s as baseline design at all.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:43 am

    The tracked Coalition will likely replace 2S3 Acacias first and likely MSTA last if at all.

    The 2S3 has a gun range of about 18km while MSTA shoots to about 24-28km from memory.

    Coalition is supposed to be able to reach 70km with standard ammo with a CEP of 10m in all weathers day and night.

    AFAIK the standard ammo has a guidance package attached that is part of the fuse that includes a GLONASS module and fins to control flight.

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:24 am

    GarryB wrote:The tracked  Coalition will likely replace 2S3 Acacias first and likely MSTA last if at all.

    The 2S3 has a gun range of about 18km while MSTA shoots to about 24-28km from memory.

    Coalition is supposed to be able to reach 70km with standard ammo with a CEP of 10m in all weathers day and night.

    AFAIK the standard ammo has a guidance package attached that is part of the fuse that includes a GLONASS module and fins to control flight.

    So the Kolatsiya will be the world's first SPG that carries guided ammo by default?

    What about guided HEAT shells that could individually hit tanks?
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    Militarov

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:37 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The tracked  Coalition will likely replace 2S3 Acacias first and likely MSTA last if at all.

    The 2S3 has a gun range of about 18km while MSTA shoots to about 24-28km from memory.

    Coalition is supposed to be able to reach 70km with standard ammo with a CEP of 10m in all weathers day and night.

    AFAIK the standard ammo has a guidance package attached that is part of the fuse that includes a GLONASS module and fins to control flight.

    So the Kolatsiya will be the world's first SPG that carries guided ammo by default?

    What about guided HEAT shells that could individually hit tanks?

    I wouldnt go that far and say it will be carried by default. Also 70km range is supposed to be with new shells that have gas generator, range with baseline ammunition is supposed to be about 40km.

    More likely OF45 and similar shells will be used in decades to come still, as they are cheap and still exist in fairly big quantities.

    HEAT in indirect fire would be quite weird, and guidance kits are not that precise to hit a tank on 60km range especially not GPS/Glonass guided variants. Standard HE rounds are more than enough to deal with tanks, as long as they fall near enough Smile
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:24 am

    Militarov wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:I have heard "the kaolitsiya is going to replace the MSTA" but that makes no sense as the MSTA is still way better than a lousy m109 and disposing of the Akatsiya is a waste of time.

    Russia should build up its artillery so it can rapidly level cities if needed.

    Coalition will replace MSTA on a long run, short term no.  

    M109A7 is quite good actually, tho i am in general not fan of M109s as baseline design at all.

    Seems good to me no like crew will suffocate when the gun breach opens. It has a fume extractor right.



    Anyway I agree with Gary the MSTA is probably going to go when all the Akatsiyas are gone and this will most likely only be in the 2040s at the earliest.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:30 pm


    Some new boxes on the turret:

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    Militarov

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:57 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Some new boxes on the turret:


    I suppose radar measuring shell speed to enhance use of fuses.
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    George1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:40 pm

    Russia’s latest Koalitsiya-SV howitzer as first step to robotize ground forces’ hardware

    The state trials of the Koalitsiya-SV artillery guns are expected to be concluded in 2020

    KUBINKA /Moscow Region/, August 25. /TASS/.Russia’s latest Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled howitzers are the first step towards robotizing the ground forces’ military hardware, Missile and Artillery Chief Lieutenant-General Mikhail Matveyevsky said at the Army-2018 forum on Saturday.

    "The Koalitsiya-SV multi-service force artillery system features our first step to introducing robotics in practice. It has an unmanned combat compartment and the process of loading and preparing for fire excludes any operations by an individual: everything is done automatically," the general said.

    Then-Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said earlier that the state trials of the Koalitsiya-SV artillery guns were expected to be concluded in 2020.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1018643
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    dino00

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  dino00 on Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:24 pm

    Howitzer c delivery: developed a mobile version of the complex "Coalition" ( koalitsiya-SV towed version)

    The army will receive a new light, but powerful gunfire


    For the Armed Forces, a new towed howitzer will be created on the basis of the newest Coalition-SV artillery complex. It will be transported on a trailer with special tractors. In military slang, such howitzers are called cabriolets. Earlier it was planned that the “Coalition” will be only in the mobile version - on a tracked or car chassis. The decision to create a new towed howitzer was made following an operation in Syria. It is easier, it can be transferred by aviation to the mountains or other remote areas, including the Arctic.

    The Defense Ministry told Izvestia that the development of a towed howitzer based on a 152-mm 2A88 gun, which is installed on the Coalition-SV self-propelled artillery installation, began. The new version will be ready for testing next year. Syrian experience has shown that the Armed Forces need a powerful, long-range and rapid-fire towed howitzer.

    The new version of the 152-mm gun from the Coalition-SV will meet these parameters. At the same time, it should be much cheaper in production, and also much more compact than the existing SAU tool, so that it can be transferred by aircraft to the mountains or to another remote or difficult-to-reach area. It is possible that this will change the length of the howitzer barrel - it will be shorter than the artillery system installed on the tank chassis.

    Now the main towed 152-mm artillery system in the Russian army is the Msta-B howitzer. This gun was originally developed in the late 1980s for the Msta-S self-propelled guns, and not as an independent artillery system. Now the same path will be repeated by the gun, which was made specifically for ACS "Coalition-SV".

    Officially, the creation of the Coalition-SV began in 2006. In 2011, the stage of production of working design documentation for the wheeled and tracked versions of the system, as well as the transport and charging vehicle, was completed. By 2013, two prototypes of self-propelled guns were made on the chassis of the T-90 tank, and in 2014 a series of 10 units was produced. It was these cars that in 2015 took part in the anniversary Victory Parade on Red Square, which is considered the official premiere of the Coalition-SV. According to the plans of the Ministry of Defense, by 2020 at least 70% of the artillery in the Ground Forces will be represented by the latest models . Among such artillery systems and "Coalition".

    These self-propelled guns surpass the Soviet and latest Western counterparts in their basic tactical and technical characteristics. "Coalition" can hit targets at a distance of 70 km at a rate of up to 16 rounds per minute. For comparison, the Soviet "Msta-S" produces 10 shells per minute at a distance of up to 30 km. As the Chief of the Rocket Forces and Artillery (MFA) of the Land Forces, Lieutenant-General Mikhail Matveyevsky, told in an interview with Izvestia, the Coalition's innovative shooting regime is called Flurry of Fire: several shells fired from one cannon at different angles achieve the same goal. This complex is the first step towards the robotization of artillery systems. A deserted fighting compartment has been created in it, and the processes for preparing the gun for firing are carried out automatically, without human intervention.

    The decision to develop howitzers on the basis of the “Coalition-SV” will help to preserve the tradition of putting duplex conveyors on the conveyor: self-propelled unit is a towed howitzer, said military expert Alexey Khlopotov.

    “There are two reasons to start producing a towed version of the Coalition,” he told Izvestia. - First, it will be a more mobile system - it can be transported even by helicopters, securing it on a special external suspension. Secondly, the unification of trunks and breech workers will reduce the cost of production and maintenance of both howitzers.

    https://iz.ru/814718/aleksei-ramm-bogdan-stepovoi/gaubitca-c-dostavkoi-razrabotan-mobilnyi-variant-kompleksa-koalitciia
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:36 am

    Well that is good news.... light high mobility Russian forces will benefit from such a powerful and hard hitting weapon.

    If they have to shorten the barrel to make it lighter and easier to move around that is OK... it will still be lobbing around 40kg shells around the place... very devastating...
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    magnumcromagnon

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:19 am

    GarryB wrote:Well that is good news.... light high mobility Russian forces will benefit from such a powerful and hard hitting weapon.

    If they have to shorten the barrel to make it lighter and easier to move around that is OK... it will still be lobbing around 40kg shells around the place... very devastating...

    The question is what kind of ammunition can it utilize. Are their thermobaric shells for Msta-B (or even for Koalitsya)? Also can a unified glide-kit be installed for the ammunition? From the glide-kits, can their be UAVs, suicide-UCAV's, or even mirco-cruise missiles (maybe with a slightly reduced warhead but with a slow burning engine that can extend the range to 150-200km)...would that be possible to develop?
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:36 am

    I would say there would be a thin walled blast HE round and also a HE fragmentation round that should cover a variety of target types... thermobaric rounds would not be that much more useful than standard HE rounds.

    If the target is 200km away then it would make more sense to engage it with something else or move to get closer.

    A towed weapon means that in the mountains when the enemy will have little more than 120mm mortars most of the time the Russians will have a powerful long range weapon.

    The self propelled model will have excellent mobility and fire power out to extended range... and the accuracy is actually rather more important than range... having a 200km range but not being able to hit anything is less useful than a 70 km range and the ability to engage point targets with a heavier projectile.

    hoom

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  hoom on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:45 pm

    Personally I'd rather they develop a light truck mount.

    Something like this

    or

    is not much heavier than a conventional mount but able to shoot & scoot much more rapidly.
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    Hole

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Hole on Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:26 am

    In an enviroment like Syria a towed gun is good enough. For anything else there will be the tracked and (heavy) wheeled versions.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:42 pm

    hoom wrote:Personally I'd rather they develop a light truck mount.

    Something like this

    or

    is not much heavier than a conventional mount but able to shoot & scoot much more rapidly.

    The whole point is that you can sling it with a Mi-17 or something up an elevation. Invaluable for mountain brigades and divisions.

    Or attach it to some trucks or tracked vehicles, or even horses - and tow it to somewhere less accessible for heavier, self-propelled artillery vehicles

    From the description it sounds like an analogue of the US M777

    Given that the max load for a Mi-17 sling is 4.5 tons; they'll have to make sure that this Koalitsiya towed-gun weighs no more than that. Probably a good bit less actually; if they want to carry it into higher altitudes as well as the crew and supporting equipment in the same chopper.

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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