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    2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

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    Peŕrier

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:05 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:1 vehicle with 2 guns is a lot cheaper than 2 vehicle with 1 gun but I was talking about naval aplication in withc you do not have spave for more than 1 turret anymore so more  guns on the 1 turret is a good solution and dont try and tell me that 2 normal cruisers is cheaper than 1 with a bigger turret.

    as for autoloaders ships will not need APFSDS,HEAT and HE they just need HE so you do not need to change ammo while feeding and even if you did you would not remove the round from the chamber you would fire it and the next one would be the new type.

    If you mean buying 1 vehicle with 2 turrets instead of 2 with 1 turrets that's strategicaly stupid because if you lose 1 of them you have like 2 vehicles lost.

    That's a similar situation with western countries replacing 4 fighter/bombers/interceptors by just 1 multirole fighter. Instead of buying 400 planes of all sort they buy just 100. It's more difficult to sustain big operations like that.

    Technology is not so superior to to a numerical advantage specially if the enemy can destroy your costly new generation fighter or vehicles by missile like ATGM or Iskanders on the ground or in ambushes.

    My point is that 1 vehicle with 2 guns gives you the same firepower as 2 vehicles with 1 gun but costs less than 2 vehicles.

    I wonder if there will be a 180/203mm variant of the koalitsiya?

    Single gun artillery is perfectly acceptable for land warfare but simply will not fit the fire rate requirments for naval aplications you cant simply have more turrets on a ship to solve the problem .

    Sorry, but I cannot see why a naval application should require greater rate of fire.

    Usually in the past, numbers of guns were relevant because 90% or more shells would simply fell on water, far away from their intended targets, and single rate of fire was quite low.

    Today a radar assisted 130mm gun could easily fire 4 to 5 shells within 10 seconds, having around 50% on target on a moving target, more up to 100% on a stationary target.

    What a faster rate of fire should accomplish? Killing two times in a row the same poor guys or disabling two times the same ship?

    I think it is of far greater importance to expand the scope of artillery emplyment, i.e. developing intelligent munitions to cope with dispersed targets, highly mobile ones, hardened ones and so on.

    By the way, for very specific application in naval warfare, it could be of interest to develop automated large caliber artillery as old 175/203 mm, instead of exotic multiple barrels medium caliber guns.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 am

    I am hoping the 152mm guns are being developed for Destroyer sized vessels and that for larger vessels including landing vessels they might have a 203mm gun system.

    With variable propellant charges and multi angle fire you could launch about 5-6 shells at a target to all land at nearly the same time with one gun barrel, which should be plenty.

    Having two guns on the naval platform is only because that was how it was developed... why change it if you don't have to.

    For the land based gun they had to to get it to fit in aircraft and in rail cars and under rail bridges and tunnels.


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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:51 am

    But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.

    T-47

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  T-47 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:40 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.

    I'll buy one
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    0nillie0

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  0nillie0 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:20 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.

    Dont forget amphibious capability....and stealth
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:19 am

    The Navy has a 533mm calibre 2,500km range "round" that carries a conventional or nuclear payload... Called Calibr.


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    Isos

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:45 am

    0nillie0 wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.

    Dont forget amphibious capability....and stealth

    lol1 lol1 lol1

    And modular design so you can upgrade to 921 mm and use hypersupermega cluster munitions that can one shoot an alien hypermega big vessel hahaha


    You should work for the nationalinterest with Dave lol1
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:18 am

    Isos wrote:
    0nillie0 wrote:
    The-thing-next-door wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.

    It would probably be best to give this weapon 6 individualy rotatable sets of 2 tracks similar to what you might see on large mining equipment.

    Dont forget amphibious capability....and stealth

    lol1 lol1 lol1

    And modular design so you can upgrade to 921 mm and use hypersupermega cluster munitions that can one shoot an alien hypermega big vessel hahaha



    You should work for the nationalinterest with Dave lol1

    Who is Dave?
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    Isos

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:34 am


    Who is Dave?

    It's a pro US guy who writes article for the NationalInterst.org website. You won't find any argument in its articles, he is like "American stuff is better because it is sooo awsome and the rest is 20 years behind".
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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:32 pm

    Isos wrote:

    Who is Dave?

    It's a pro US guy who writes article for the NationalInterst.org website. You won't find any argument in its articles, he is like "American stuff is better because it is sooo awsome and the rest is 20 years behind".

    (Shouting in mad scientist voice) 20 YEARS BEHIND...20 YEARS BEHIND WE WILL LAVE YOU IN THE STOE AGE MAGOT SOON ALL RUSSIAN TANKS WILL GET ENERGY SHEILDS TELEPORTATION AND MULTI MEGATON DEATHRAYS YOU MORON AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT HAHAHAHAHAHA. (end mad scientist rant)

    Anyway on a more serious note is the koalitsia going to have guided ammo as standard? What will the range be?
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    Isos

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Isos on Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:55 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    Who is Dave?

    It's a pro US guy who writes article for the NationalInterst.org website. You won't find any argument in its articles, he is like "American stuff is better because it is sooo awsome and the rest is 20 years behind".

    (Shouting in mad scientist voice) 20 YEARS BEHIND...20 YEARS BEHIND WE WILL LAVE YOU IN THE STOE AGE MAGOT SOON ALL RUSSIAN TANKS WILL GET ENERGY SHEILDS TELEPORTATION AND MULTI MEGATON DEATHRAYS YOU MORON AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO STOP IT HAHAHAHAHAHA. (end mad scientist rant)

    Anyway on a more serious note is the koalitsia going to have guided ammo as standard? What will the range be?

    That's unlikly to happen. Guided munitions are cheap compare to missiles but pretty expensive compare to normal ones. And it depends what guidance you use. For laser you need to have someone near the target to illuminate it.

    The most likly scenario would be a mix of 80% normal and 20% guided ones, or something like that.
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    ZoA

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  ZoA on Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:32 pm

    The-thing-next-door wrote:But the army still needs a 920 mm self propelled howitzer with 300-400 km rand and the ability to fire multi megaton nukes cluster nukes ultra heavy guided HE shells that can 1 shot an entire airbase and has a high speed auto loader.
    ...

    You mean Iskander? I think they already have several regiments of those.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:01 pm

    Actually it is likely that 90% of the rounds fired by Coalition will be guided...

    It will of course be compatible with existing 152mm guided shells...they have had laser guided shells for their artillery since the 1980s... including artillery for 122mm, 152mm, 203mm for guns, 120mm, 240mm for Mortars, as well as 100mm rifled for BMP-3, 100mm for smoothbore MT-12 towed guns, and 100mm rifled for early mod tanks (T-54/55), plus 115mm for T-62, and 125mm for later model tanks and also 152mm for the new generation tanks.

    They actually have two guided missile shells for the 152mm calibre... one called Santimetr for D-20 towed guns and 2S1 and 2S5, and the other called Krasnopol which is used in newer 152mm guns and also has a 155mm calibre version that is currently operated by the French too.

    They will likely have developed a new missile for the new guns.

    What they have also developed is an new smart fuse system with GLASNOSS guidance and control fins attached... you mount it to a standard HE shell and it provides guidance to get the shell within about 10m of the point of aim out to max range.

    The fuses are very cheap and if it means you only need 2 or 3 rounds for each target then it works out cheaper to use them as standard against targets of known coordinates.

    Even against targets of unknown coordinates using these guided shells you can land your rounds in a neat pattern to increase your chances of a kill against an elusive target by bracketing the area with fragments.

    The vast majority of rounds used will be these standard HE shells with a smart fuse and guidance package.

    In addition they will also have guided missiles, and other special rounds probably including UAV rounds and other clever things like jammer rounds and EMP rounds.

    BTW for laser illuminated targets they already operate their own UAVs and of course most Russian vehicles have laser range finders that should probably be able to be used to mark targets too... not to mention special forces and even CAS support in the form of Su-25SM3 and Ka-52 and Mi-28NM.


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    George1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:48 pm

    As preliminary tests near completion - https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/917359581914857473 … - a trial batch of Koalitsiya-SV self-propelled howitzers is being readied for the official state trials, which should commence in the "near future".

    https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12152247@egNews


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    robognus

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  robognus on Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:34 pm

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    Cyberspec

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:31 am

    Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials
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    George1

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  George1 on Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:26 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials

    The picture was taken during a demonstration at a training ground in the Nizhny Novgorod region (Mulino?) In August 2017.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2971690.html


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    franco

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  franco on Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:53 am

    Cyberspec wrote:Interesting...so there's going to be a wheeled version or is this just part of the trials

    Had heard of a wheeled version for Coastal artillery to replace the Bereg, but this looks like it would have other uses also.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:59 pm

    Tracked models have good mobility across rough country but are not usually that fast.

    Wheeled models can move long distances relatively quickly on a good road... and are cheaper to operate and maintain.


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    The-thing-next-door

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  The-thing-next-door on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:01 pm

    I have heard "the kaolitsiya is going to replace the MSTA" but that makes no sense as the MSTA is still way better than a lousy m109 and disposing of the Akatsiya is a waste of time.

    Russia should build up its artillery so it can rapidly level cities if needed.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:09 pm

    When can we expect the Coalitsiya tracked platform to enter service. Also are there any specifications for the new guided round?

    Anyway its funny that now that this SPG is built, western fanboys have gotten a lot quiter in discussing artillery. Before that they were blathering all day about the PzH2000 and that one korean howitzer.

    Also it should be mentioned that when westerners make a NATO vs Russia or USSR military comparison they barely mention artillery in their calculations.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:31 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:When can we expect the Coalitsiya tracked platform to enter service. Also are there any specifications for the new guided round?.............

    Pretty much any day now, of all the projects that one has been fastest by far
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    Militarov

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:31 am

    The-thing-next-door wrote:I have heard "the kaolitsiya is going to replace the MSTA" but that makes no sense as the MSTA is still way better than a lousy m109 and disposing of the Akatsiya is a waste of time.

    Russia should build up its artillery so it can rapidly level cities if needed.

    Coalition will replace MSTA on a long run, short term no.

    M109A7 is quite good actually, tho i am in general not fan of M109s as baseline design at all.
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    GarryB

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:43 am

    The tracked Coalition will likely replace 2S3 Acacias first and likely MSTA last if at all.

    The 2S3 has a gun range of about 18km while MSTA shoots to about 24-28km from memory.

    Coalition is supposed to be able to reach 70km with standard ammo with a CEP of 10m in all weathers day and night.

    AFAIK the standard ammo has a guidance package attached that is part of the fuse that includes a GLONASS module and fins to control flight.



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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: 2S35 Koalitsiya-SV 152mm

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:24 am

    GarryB wrote:The tracked  Coalition will likely replace 2S3 Acacias first and likely MSTA last if at all.

    The 2S3 has a gun range of about 18km while MSTA shoots to about 24-28km from memory.

    Coalition is supposed to be able to reach 70km with standard ammo with a CEP of 10m in all weathers day and night.

    AFAIK the standard ammo has a guidance package attached that is part of the fuse that includes a GLONASS module and fins to control flight.

    So the Kolatsiya will be the world's first SPG that carries guided ammo by default?

    What about guided HEAT shells that could individually hit tanks?

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