Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine

magnumcromagnon wrote:

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?

with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.

Unless you have torpedo tube-sized mini-sub that's supersonic due to supercavitation bubble.

navyfield wrote:

GarryB wrote:

I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?

You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.

they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.

the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.

Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...

AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?

with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.

GarryB wrote:

AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.

An AIP is a type of battery.

The western AIPs use stored hydrogen to create electricity to charge the batteries.

The new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity to charge the batteries underwater without needing to surface...
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.

The crew size does not change with the added AIP.

Adding new batteries would add a huge amount of extra weight which would require more power to move through the water.
so does aip so??

with very short range.

The export models have short range...
still too short compared to conventional 50-100km torpedoes

navyfield wrote:
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

That's a nuclear reactor.

Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

navyfield wrote:
i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

navyfield wrote:

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

That's a nuclear reactor.

Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

navyfield wrote:

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.

navyfield wrote:
no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.

Mike E wrote:
- Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Mike E wrote:
- Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

This is a misconception.

Producing Oxygen out of water requires enormous power, impractical for diesel powered submarine. Currently such oxygen generator is only available in nuclear submarine who can provide necessary power for it.


Diesel submarine with AIP however stores Oxygen for its AIP in Liquid oxygen, that's what essentially all submarine with AIP do. There are other options such as using oxygen candle but dangerous as it's flammable and not practiced.

Mike E wrote:

True, but they do come with smaller units don't they? 

They could possibly use other kinds of oxidizers (more dense?) at the cost of safety (depends).

Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.

navyfield wrote:

Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.

thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
now go kill yourselves...

navyfield wrote:
thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
now go kill yourselves...

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
now go kill yourselves...

Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

navyfield wrote:

Stealthflanker wrote:

navyfield wrote:
thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
now go kill yourselves...

Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

- and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....

navyfield wrote:
aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6

so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

GarryB wrote:

aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.