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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 07, 2014 10:44 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew

    That's a nuclear reactor.

    Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.

    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.
    GarryB said it the best... Go read his reply again.
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    Post  navyfield on Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:01 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

    Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

    The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.
    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E on Wed Sep 10, 2014 12:08 am

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
    but i thought you would get it.
    but ,you didnt. Neutral
    you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.

    Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?

    The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.

    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.
    You're kidding.... RIGHT? 
     - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer. 
     - Probably has to do with the fact that the Collins-class is absolutely terrible (honesty), and is getting old. - It isn't worth it, and Australia's newest sub will have AIP.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:28 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    no its not but i cant help you limited mind...
    you need oxygen too for fuel cell. you can pump hydrogen all day and will never get the power, you need oxygen liquid or compressed form.
    you should know australians thought about ading aip to ocean going colins class ssk ,and deemed it not worth enough, with 30min of snorkeling they could recharge batteries and aip was not needed ,once you deplete aip its dead weight carried around, aip is not some magic and its usefulnes is arguable.

    Bullshit. Australians strongly considered Soryu class and that sub comes in with AIP by default.

    And i wonder if you're already out of steam ? First you're spitting shit about AIP increase manning requirements which makes it your #1Bullshit and now you're spitting your #2bullshit about AIP is not useful.

    Go read some news my dear.

    Mike E wrote:
    - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

    This is a misconception.

    Producing Oxygen out of water requires enormous power, impractical for diesel powered submarine. Currently such oxygen generator is only available in nuclear submarine who can provide necessary power for it.


    Diesel submarine with AIP however stores Oxygen for its AIP in Liquid oxygen, that's what essentially all submarine with AIP do. There are other options such as using oxygen candle but dangerous as it's flammable and not practiced.

    Mike E
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    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:28 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    Mike E wrote:
    - Ever heard of Desalination? Submarines "desal" units should produce enough O2 for the fuel cell, and fuel cells don't need oxygen, they need an oxidizer.

    This is a misconception.

    Producing Oxygen out of water requires enormous power, impractical for diesel powered submarine. Currently such oxygen generator is only available in nuclear submarine who can provide necessary power for it.


    Diesel submarine with AIP however stores Oxygen for its AIP in Liquid oxygen, that's what essentially all submarine with AIP do. There are other options such as using oxygen candle but dangerous as it's flammable and not practiced.


    True, but they do come with smaller units don't they? 

    They could possibly use other kinds of oxidizers (more dense?) at the cost of safety (depends).
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:50 pm

    Mike E wrote:

    True, but they do come with smaller units don't they? 

    They could possibly use other kinds of oxidizers (more dense?) at the cost of safety (depends).

    Well the constraint is power that required to break up the oxygen from water, not the size of the device. So far however no other alternative except that electrolyzer.

    So the Liquid oxygen storage will remain the most efficient solution for foreseeable future.
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    Post  navyfield on Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:40 pm

    Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz
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    Post  Mike E on Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:14 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Mike E wrote:By "smaller" I meant less power consuming.
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz
    You're a pain, do you know that? How in the name of Earth does this discussion have anything to do with physics?

    Look in the mirror....

    Yes, because the Collins is a crappy sub that would not benefit from AIP. More important though, Australia's future subs will be equipped with AIP!

    Right back at you... Twisted Evil
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:13 am


    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact

    Australia is a minor regional power with no rivals possessing any significant anti SSK capability to require expensive AIP technology being added to a sub already roundly criticised as being rather a dog.

    the fact they weren't interested in spending good money after bad is meaningless to any of your points.
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:39 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

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    Post  navyfield on Thu Sep 25, 2014 4:21 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
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    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:53 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    Stealthflanker wrote:
    navyfield wrote:
    thats basic physics ,unfortunately your brain is too small to understand that....
    and that other guy plus you 2 have no clue ,nore disproved any of my posts with facts but with your imaginary delusonal thinking...
    australians rejected aip for collins class -fact!
    now go kill yourselves... Razz

    Yea but they accept Soryu with AIP-Fact.

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!
    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6 so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    - and in the exercises some time ago certain officer was quoted as saying onyx had better then 400km range ,not 500+ km....
    Oh, did you know that the Lada was fixed *a while ago*? Any countries first venture into the world of AIP is going to have problems, just like with submarines on general (cough...China...cough). It actually does increase performance (time under water) as that is what AIP systems are meant to do! The added cost and complexity you complain about aren't substantial, and well worth having the AIP system in the first place...

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Are you really that stupid? If "it requires so much maintenance" and is "a pain in the butt" than WHY did they REQUEST the system in the first place? - Because they WANTED it!


    400+ could equal 500+... I'd bet all of my money the range is over 500 km, as that is what its older brother's range was....
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:53 pm

    navyfield wrote:
    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    News link ? I'm interested.
    Because from what i read here

    http://izvestia.ru/news/507580

    It's not related to AIP.

    Addenum:
    Did our lada here even have AIP in the first place ? Can't find any mention of it except that AIP module is offered as export option.

    This is Lada model

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 5 FBjxT7PHUL

    can you point me out where is the AIP module is ?



    soryu import has stirling engine for aip , so you need 3 engineers for stiling engine (its not a steam nor diesel engine) for 24h coverage, plus probably 2 engineers a shift so more then 6
    Any reason why specialists are really needed instead re-certify already on board engineers ? So they can handle both type of engine.



    so it adds crew and water oxygen weight space requirement.

    Please address my previous point on U-212, why that submarine, with AIP.. Can be run with only crew of 27.. That's basically half of collins and around third of Soryu.  Did you see anything so called "Increasing space, weight requirement etc blablabla"  Over any sub not equipped with AIP ?

    If you're talking about what's might be increased is manning cost, not oxygen, weight and space requirement.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:28 am

    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

    They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

    the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

    The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

    Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.
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    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    aip on lada -megafailed! fact! it didnt increase the performance of lada over kilo at all ,and added cost and complexety.
    whole Lada class production for which navy had high expectations was stopped!

    AIP on first LADA vessel can't have failed... it never had one.

    They had the first LADA boat in the water and testing before the AIP was even ready and one of the conclusions was to put both Lithium Ion batteries AND the new AIP into the two other Lada subs that have been laid down but not completed till the first Lada had been tested.

    the new batteries and the the AIP wont have a full scale test till the other two Lada vessels... likely named Lada-M or possibly renamed because of the expected new performance.

    The first Lada built will be kept in service for testing new technology and the new Ladas will likely enter service when they finish testing.

    That is becuase it *had* problems... Now that they are fixed, all they need is a paycheck or two and the work shall continue/resume. Just look at how fast the Improved-Kilos are getting built, the Lada's should be built in a similar (fast) fashion.

    Not really. The Lada is a very capable boat and a generation ahead of Kilo in any version... its sensors are comparable to SSNs, though it lacks top speed and range.

    Once the two in development are ready and have completed testing however, mass production should not be too much of a problem.
    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a  smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology since it was used in ussr space program since late 60s. K-OH electrolyte + h2 + o2 pumped trough graphyte bars. there is a book about it in "man in space" by komrakov and some others i remember long time ago i read about it.
    ofcourse he cant see it- its at the bottom and not visible in the model Razz
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    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:03 pm

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:07 pm

    navyfield wrote:hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    I guess you have better cross sectional diagram then ? Show me.

    Or please, stop making pointless bullshit.
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    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:16 pm

    read here
    http://korabley.net/news/novye_dizel_ehlektricheskie_podvodnye_lodki_proekta_677_klassa_lada_dlja_podvodnogo_flota_rossii/2009-11-08-419-987
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:24 pm

    navyfield wrote:read here
    http://korabley.net/news/novye_dizel_ehlektricheskie_podvodnye_lodki_proekta_677_klassa_lada_dlja_podvodnogo_flota_rossii/2009-11-08-419-987

    And where is so called Oxygen or Hydrogen tank there ?

    What type of AIP module they installed ?

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.

    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 5 Attachment

    There both the oxygen and hydrogen tank is inside the pressure hull.

    My conclusion.. The article got mixed up with Optional AIP offer for export.
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    Post  navyfield on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:31 pm

    hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:34 pm

    navyfield wrote:hmmm ,nope , it is confusing , but this is amur- export model i think ,and it has AIP - as section block , as an add-on,  because its optional for customer, so customer can ask for standard amur ssk ,or amur with aip-added in as a vertical section , in case submarines are build with integrated fuel cell aip -from the start- it looks without huge oxygen tank and design is different . Wink

    SO you're basically lying when saying Lada's AIP failed ? When in fact it has none..

    Good..son..Very good.

    Next time i won't spent my time on you.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:24 am

    yes it did , so they did as i predicted they added aditional battery pack +and but a smaller aip -fuel cell , for which they have experience and technology

    Idiot.

    Their fuel cell technology doesn't use hydrogen... it uses diesel fuel, so making a smaller fuel cell makes no sense... on western hydrogen fuel cells it is the hydrogen and oxygen that takes up lots of room and creates the potentially lethal explosive situation.

    hydrogen can be very explosive and hydrogen and oxygen can leak ,so they are put in tanks outside of pressure hull...

    Idiot. Hydrogen needs oxygen to burn and liquid oxygen under pressure in exactly the right mix to explode. Liquid oxygen on the other hand will make anything that will burn explode... burn rate of most fuels is dependent on the rate at which you can get oxygen to the fuel...

    I found your article hard to believe because Russian AIP module is like this.

    Amur is a for export sub and that AIP is for export only too.

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    Post  Viktor on Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:36 pm

    It has started Very Happy

    Source: Russia has started production of anaerobic systems for submarines
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:15 pm

    Viktor wrote:It has started  Very Happy

    Source: Russia has started production of anaerobic systems for submarines

    Ah so it's started and Russian AIP won't use metal hydrate hydrogen storage as Germans but using reformer instead to produce hydrogen for fuel cell.

    One consideration i see from this kind of AIP is that reformation of diesel fuel to hydrogen is expected to be more complex than other option such as methanol, another thing is that there might be concern that Carbon Dioxide or other gaseous byproduct might be produced during reformation that might be poisoning the fuel cell catalyst (Though seems unlikely because by using reformer i expect Russian fuel cell would have higher operating temperature than German cells, thus more resistant to carbon dioxide poisoning) Nonetheless those byproducts must be disposed.

    Disposal can be done through some sort of scrubber system which will diffuse CO2 with sea water, this process however may impose some penalty to the AIP's own power because it has to offset against back pressure in depth.

    The benefit is of course lighter weight and logistical easiness as the only thing need to be carefully handled is liquid oxygen.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:51 am

    The last article I read about it, the Russian AIP generates about 4 times more power than the western hydrogen based equivalent.

    The enormous advantage of using diesel as the AIP fuel source is that every port in the world is already rigged to supply diesel and store diesel and handle diesel. Very few are set up to handle hydrogen.

    This means that for export Russian subs with AIP the infrastructure to support their operation is already in place...


    That is huge....

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