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    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:50 am

    The process of generating electricity used by a hydrogen fuel cell is as quiet as a battery, but offers better energy storage than most batteries.

    New batteries and HFC or other similar fuel cell technology is quiet, but no matter how the energy is created or stored it runs an electric motor to actually move the sub.

    A Kilo class sub with a German hydrogen fuel cell and batteries will not be any quieter or louder than a Kilo class with batteries... because it will use the same electric motor for propulsion whether the power is coming from a fuel cell or a battery it is just as quiet.

    Not all AIP systems are quiet but all extend the time a sub can operate underwater.

    The new Megawatt NPP for powering lasers would be an excellent component to add to an existing SSK and could be used to charge batteries and operate the sub without needing to surface.

    In fact they could easily fit 2-3 of them in a Kilo sub replacing the diesel engine and diesel fuel tanks that would no longer be needed... they could be used like the diesel engine... each of which generated 1,000Kw, so most of the time they would be off with the sub operating on batteries and then when the batteries need a charge... no need to surface and snorkel... just turn on the two or three NPPs to fully charge the batteries while remaining fully underwater... in fact when you are chasing something you could turn on the NPPs for an extra energy boost to increase speed and endurance...

    Even if these NPPs were noisy when operating they wont be as noisy as two diesel engines and the fact that they don't need to surface makes them vastly more stealthy. You could drop them into the design like batteries themselves and swap them over just as easily.

    As technology improves the power they generate will increase, their size and weight will decrease and the costs will become cheaper and cheaper.
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    Post  kumbor on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:08 am

    kvs wrote:
    Hole wrote:When you can build nuclear powered subs an AIP isn´t that important. And there is the new mini NPP developed for Poseidon. If this thing can propel a 20m long "torpedo" to 100kn and give it a range of 20.000km, three or four of them could power a sub the size of a Kilo or Lada fora long time.

    Nobody has presented a case for AIP based on operation performance of diesel-electric submarines.    Small submarines were never designed to be in the water for
    years without surfacing.   So they were never used in such roles.    Now we have this AIP gimmick and all of the sudden no diesel-electric has any use without it.
    Utter BS.   But this gimmick-think is exactly how western marketing works.   Consumer saps think that they can't live without some new feature that has less than
    marginal impact on the utility of a product.    And western diesel-electric sub makers can then sell their boats for $2 billion each.    Would anyone please demonstrate
    how AIP justifies a 6-fold price markup compared to a project 636.3 submarine?

    Arming submarines with more effective weapons is not a gimmick.

    Dived performance was always crucial for submarines through history, and AIP gives marked improvement in autonomy when dived. When using fuel cells it is also completely quiet, as fuel cells do not have mowing parts. Nuclear propulsion gives practically unlimited underwater autonomy, but it is also the most expensive. So, russian navy needs a number of non-nuclear subs for operations in coastal waters. As pr.677 new type of battery gives something like 650NM dived on 3 knots, there is no substantial deficiencies in comparison with AIP. Consequently, it is good for Russia to work on an AIP powerplant, but there is no need to hurry, as there are so many other "holes to fill" in russian navy`s order of battle - decreasing number of modern and adequate ocean going surface escorts, for instance.
    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP - as this will lead to "impossibly low number of operational subs in western navies" - crippling in the end their combat capability to critical extent. Watch what happened wit swedish navy, for example. 20 years ago they had more than ten operational submarines, but now they have three or four, with no hope of increasing numbers. The increased capability of AIP subs does not merit two or threefold decrease in numbers of operational boats.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:17 am

    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

    Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:40 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

    Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

    lol1 Rolling Eyes Embarassed How would inflation in USD increase the cost of Lada's sold in Rubles? Wink The Ruble circa 2019 has roughly 1/220th the value the Soviet Ruble had (circa 88'-89') during the time the Lada was conceptualized, and still has less value (albeit not as significant) than the Federations Ruble circa the late 1990's. The Ruble circa 1998 had 1/6th value of the USD of that year, and the Ruble circa 2019 has 1/70th value of the USD of 2019. Because they're are sold in Rubles it means that they will sell at the same value as export and generate more income, but the domestic prices can be negotiated privately.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:33 pm

    How would inflation in USD increase the cost of Lada's sold in Rubles?

    I've compared dollars with dollars.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:52 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    How would inflation in USD increase the cost of Lada's sold in Rubles?  

    I've compared dollars with dollars.

    Again, what does USD have to do with Lada's sold in Rubles?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:05 pm

    Again, what does USD have to do with Lada's sold in Rubles?

    High Russian inflation would increase relative price of Lada even more and prove that AIP isn't that expensive. But inflation are only numbers. If you translate it in present Russian prices you can tell an ordinary Russian how many loafs of bread Lada buys, but that's all.

    If you prefer fair play, than translate today's 212 prices back to the end 1990s using German inflation: 400/(1,02)^20=270 mio. Much cheaper than Lada, not to say that in the time of those prices being set, 212 wasn't serially produced yet.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:50 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Again, what does USD have to do with Lada's sold in Rubles?

    High Russian inflation would increase relative price of Lada even more and prove that AIP isn't that expensive. But inflation are only numbers. If you translate it in present Russian prices you can tell an ordinary Russian how many loafs of bread Lada buys, but that's all.

    If you prefer fair play, than translate today's 212 prices back to the end 1990s using German inflation: 400/(1,02)^20=270 mio. Much cheaper than Lada, not to say that in the time of those prices being set, 212 wasn't serially produced yet.

    You seem to of completely ignored the information in my original post, and selectively chose what to respond to. You brought up "High Russian Inflation" but you completely ignored the fact that the value of the Ruble circa 1998 was 1/6th the USD, and it's 1/70th the USD circa 2019, and yet you didn't see a massive hike in price did you? So explain to me why Lada prices haven't grown by a factor of 10???
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    Post  Isos on Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:02 pm

    It's more likely that a foreign client wants the deal to be made in dollars or euro rather than rubles.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:31 pm

    Can anyone show an official price tag of Lada?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:39 pm

    So explain to me why Lada prices haven't grown by a factor of 10???

    Because the inflation and the exchange rate effects offset each other Smile the exchange rate effect is static and the inflation rate effect is dynamic.

    If you live in Russia you only take into account inflation effect to capture the price dynamics from 1997-----> 2019 and translate old prices into new. What was worth 1 rub in 1997 is now worth 10 rub.

    If you live in the US you need to offset this inflation effect, which is not present in your country, by multiplying the new price with the new exchange rate, it is a static transformation in this moment in time to get you from Russian world to the US. Note that both effects perfectly offset each other. Russian inflation was averagely more than 10 % in the last 20 years, increasing prices tenfold, just as the exchange rate increased tenfold. So you get again exactly 0,15 USD for 1 rub in 2019 dollars as in 1997 dollars. But now you miss the dynamic effect of 22 years - the inflation rate. It's not representative to talk about 1997 prices in 2019 without adjusting them! So multiply with 1,5, the US inflation.

    Can anyone show an official price tag of Lada?

    The source is https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=905
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    Post  flamming_python on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:52 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

    Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

    By some reports a Yasen sub costs $500 million now that it's in production.

    I really do doubt that a Lada-class sub approaches that; possibly only the head of the series.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:22 pm

    By some reports a Yasen sub costs $500 million now that it's in production.

    2011 estimate for Yasen program was 5 bn dollars, 1.5 bn for the first boat and 0.6 bn for the next 6.

    Then they decided to heavily modernise 885M and Kazan costed 3.5 bn.
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    Post  kumbor on Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:13 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    By some reports a Yasen sub costs $500 million now that it's in production.

    2011 estimate for Yasen program was 5 bn dollars, 1.5 bn for the first boat and 0.6 bn for the next 6.

    Then they decided to heavily modernise 885M and Kazan costed 3.5 bn.

    You must be very careful when considering prices of "defence materiel" in Russia. Defence industry is exempt from NDS - VAT for products for domestic use. Material prices are lower than stockmarket prices and salaries are rather low - no more than 1.000$ for an engineer. Find an engineer in US who will work in defence industry for such a salary! They work for tenfold salary - and their results are ... rather not talking `bout that.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:29 pm

    Compared to the living costs they earn nearly the same. A small house in Amiland will cost you 500.000+. Your kid goes to college? 50.000+. A small band aid on the knee of your kid? 500+. A hamburger? 20+.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:51 pm

    Hole wrote:Compared to the living costs they earn nearly the same. A small house in Amiland will cost you 500.000+. Your kid goes to college? 50.000+. A small band aid on the knee of your kid? 500+. A hamburger? 20+.

    MIT costs over $40,000 per year.

    The real reason for Russian military product prices being much lower is not the exchange rate or poverty, it is the lack of massive corruption like in the
    USA. The recent failure of the high speed rail project in California because the "ran out of money" is an example. Every contractor and the dozens
    of subcontractor associated with them all gouge the taxpayer for every last dime. American defense sector workers are not making tens of millions of
    dollars. The money goes to the owners and shareholders.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/why-do-air-force-planes-need-10000-toilet-seat-covers/

    The above is not cute. It is terminal rot.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:34 am

    But it makes them the largets weapons exporter of the planet. Very Happy
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:59 pm

    You must be very careful when considering prices of "defence materiel" in Russia.

    It's not that bad Smile The purchasing power in Russia is almost twice larger than in the US.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:12 am

    Actually they seem to be getting vastly better value for money, and spend smarter rather than faster...
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    Post  LMFS on Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:17 pm

    Russia will continue the construction of submarines of project "Lada"

    https://weaponews.com/news/65349043-russia-will-continue-the-construction-of-submarines-of-project-lada.html
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    Post  hoom on Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:17 am

    Basically hunting for India to supply capital to finish off AIP development...
    Not necessarily a bad idea but India is not exactly proven to be a reliable funding partner.

    Ultimately I expect Russia will need to front the $$$ itself & meanwhile they stopped development so its gonna be even more delayed.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:20 am

    hoom wrote:Basically hunting for India to supply capital to finish off AIP development...
    Not necessarily a bad idea but India is not exactly proven to be a reliable funding partner.

    Ultimately I expect Russia will need to front the $$$ itself & meanwhile they stopped development so its gonna be even more delayed.

    They should make some powerpoint slides and go ask the arab states. None has any sub in service while it is a must have. And right now just like egypt or turkey they are trying to be less dependent on US.

    But russians suck at marketing.


    Last edited by Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  hoom on Sun May 26, 2019 10:22 am

    Couple of pics of Kronstadt in early May
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 16 19-7514213-dsc02228
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 16 19-7514213-dsc02229
    and they turned it round since
    Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class Submarine - Page 16 25-7533205-677-kronshtadt-admiraltejskie-verfi-25.05.2019
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    Post  runaway on Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:30 am

    verkhoturye51 wrote:
    Also, let western navies "blow off the roof" with devilishly expensive AIP

    Type 212 costs around 400 mio $ and Lada costed 300-350 mio in the end 1990s, because of inflation you can translate this into 450 mio today. You can drive the price down with scalling up the production. The entire Latin America drives German subs. I think the decrease in size of Russian navy has lead the Swedish navy to do the same.

    Yes of course when the BF was small and old there was no sense in keeping many operational modern subs for Sweden so they went down to 5.
    Now they are completing 2 new A26 class submarines so to replace the two older Södermanland class subs. They are also modernizing the 3 Gotland class, so all in all 5 modern subs all with AIP.
    They are expanding the Navy as well so there are plans for increasing the Sub flottilla with 1 or 2 more subs in the 2020´s togheter with more corvettes.

    And i think AIP is definitively worth the extra money, it enhances the combat value several times when allowing the sub to stay quite for weeks instead of days. Its very much a shame Russian navy hasnt and still dont have operational AIP.
    In backsight they should have copied the Stirling machinery while contionuing developing their own Diesel AIP.

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    Post  Isos on Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:49 am

    Russia has ASW corvettes in baltic and many ka-27 in kaliningrad covered by su-27 and s-300.

    Sweedish subs will be dead meat if war happens. If they fire a torpedo they will be detected and destroyed.

    With Kalibr they can hit them when they are in port within an hour. Moreiver since soviet times Sweedish bases are watch by swimmer spetznaz so tey could destroy the subs under water when they go out of the port.

    AIP is needed for exporting the subs mostly. With all the assets they have, AIP is not crucial for russian navy.


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