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73 posters
Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Austin- Posts : 7617
Points : 8014
Join date : 2010-05-08
Location : India
Mike E wrote:Do you know what VNEU stands for?
AIP system a new type which uses Diesel and can generate Hydrogen on board is being developed.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Ok, thanks!
redgiacomo- Posts : 30
Points : 34
Join date : 2014-08-26
Age : 29
Location : Rome
[/quote]
Yeah, and three have already been launched! They can really produce those things like nobodies business...
Hopefully they can continue that with the Lada![/quote]
Yes i hope too! But the Lada is the MIG-35 of the Russian Navy. Even better the MIG-35 is more successful.
I fear that Lada will be bypassed. And that would be a really big pity.
Yeah, and three have already been launched! They can really produce those things like nobodies business...
Hopefully they can continue that with the Lada![/quote]
Yes i hope too! But the Lada is the MIG-35 of the Russian Navy. Even better the MIG-35 is more successful.
I fear that Lada will be bypassed. And that would be a really big pity.
GarryB- Posts : 38979
Points : 39475
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
Lada is state of the art with excellent sensors and improved propulsion and should be able to spend more than two weeks submerged and operational... an enormous step forward for SSKs.... it will be the quietest sub around.
they have also spent a small fortune on it... now that they have worked out solutions it would be incredibly stupid to get rid of it now...
they have also spent a small fortune on it... now that they have worked out solutions it would be incredibly stupid to get rid of it now...
redgiacomo- Posts : 30
Points : 34
Join date : 2014-08-26
Age : 29
Location : Rome
I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Yeah, construction has refused for both the later Lada class subs. - Petersburg is in the Northern Fleet, with most issues fixed.
GarryB- Posts : 38979
Points : 39475
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?
You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.
they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.
the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.
Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Now that they've fixed the problems with the Lada, it would really be nice to see them working on an extended (length) version. Something around the size of the Japanese Soryu-class (~3,000t surfaced, ~4,200t submerged). That extra hull length could be used to add extra missile "tubes" for the Kalibr, which would be an important asset to combating carrier convoys etc. It would also put some more stress on the US navy... Another thing to note is that it wouldn't be that much more expensive, think of it like extending a plane's fuselage. - Adding another "section" or two, of course, planes aren't even remotely close to subs, but you get the idea. Any thoughts?
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
Nobody has any thoughts on my idea? 
GarryB- Posts : 38979
Points : 39475
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
They will be for coastal use so having them remain relatively small would be of more benefit than extra launch tubes for long range missiles.
Having said that of course for export they could extend it as much as the customer wants...
Having said that of course for export they could extend it as much as the customer wants...
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
True, that is one thing that I completely forgot about too...
Exports could love the idea, and the Amur sort of has it!
Exports could love the idea, and the Amur sort of has it!
navyfield- Posts : 118
Points : 69
Join date : 2013-05-27
GarryB wrote:I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?
You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.
they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.
the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.
Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...
AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.
navyfield- Posts : 118
Points : 69
Join date : 2013-05-27
with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
Points : 8273
Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
- Post n°90
Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
magnumcromagnon Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:04 pm
navyfield wrote:with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
Unless you have torpedo tube-sized mini-sub that's supersonic due to supercavitation bubble.
navyfield- Posts : 118
Points : 69
Join date : 2013-05-27
with very short range.magnumcromagnon wrote:navyfield wrote:with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
Unless you have torpedo tube-sized mini-sub that's supersonic due to supercavitation bubble.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
navyfield wrote:GarryB wrote:I didn't know that! So is it sure they are going to restart the production?
You can run as many computer simulations as you like but at the end of the day the only way to test a design is to build it and put it in the water.
they tested the first Lada and found some problems, which they worked on and fixed... the solutions will be applied to the two Lada-M boats that were started after the first one was tested.
the new boats will have new batteries and new AIP and might even be given a different name... but they will be completed.
Any alternative does not exist and would need to start from a clean sheet of paper and even then there are not guarantees it will work as expected either, but will not be in service for 12-15 years...
AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.
Oh please... AIP is anything but a gimmick, even though it isn't a game-changer.
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
That is some bad ideology you got there... So what, make it a little bigger! Extending is the easiest possible way to enlarge the sub, it barely adds weight and the extra room could hold larger engines, more fuel etc.navyfield wrote:with increased size you do need more power and become a bigger and noisier target ,plus you already can pack enough torpedoes or missiles for their size.Mike E wrote:Nobody has any thoughts on my idea?
conventional subs are for coastal and sea areas and ambush tactics or some close interception to get weapons in range...
No need for them to chase ships or nuclear subs -theyll never catch them.
Yeah, but that is like saying carriers are only useful for sending planes to sink other carriers, just because that is what they've done in the past.
They aren't meant for that... In case you didn't notice, nuclear cubs are louder than diesels, so they would most likely be cruising at a lower speed to limit their opponent's advantage... The idea is that the Lada-E (my name for it) can sneak up on large convoys, as their noise will be cancelled out by convoy itself, and will then continue to launch both their torpedoes and missiles at the target...
GarryB- Posts : 38979
Points : 39475
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
An AIP is a type of battery.
The western AIPs use stored hydrogen to create electricity to charge the batteries.
The new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity to charge the batteries underwater without needing to surface...
And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.
The crew size does not change with the added AIP.
Adding new batteries would add a huge amount of extra weight which would require more power to move through the water.
with very short range.
The export models have short range...
navyfield- Posts : 118
Points : 69
Join date : 2013-05-27
GarryB wrote:AIP is new marketing gimmick like stealth for aircraft ,it can be beneffitial but.... you could just use that space for extra batteries.
An AIP is a type of battery.
The western AIPs use stored hydrogen to create electricity to charge the batteries.
The new Russian AIP uses diesel fuel to generate electricity to charge the batteries underwater without needing to surface...
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew
And all this new equipment drains even more power- plus more crew- plus even more power neded continuosly for life support.
The crew size does not change with the added AIP.
Adding new batteries would add a huge amount of extra weight which would require more power to move through the water.
so does aip so??
with very short range.
The export models have short range...
still too short compared to conventional 50-100km torpedoes
Mike E- Posts : 2619
Points : 2651
Join date : 2014-06-19
Location : Bay Area, CA
By "battery" he probably meant a "battery regeneration" system that charges the battery or similar. Don't forget there are different versions and types of AIP.
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1410
Points : 1486
Join date : 2009-08-04
Age : 36
Location : Indonesia
- Post n°97
Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
Stealthflanker Fri Sep 05, 2014 3:11 am
navyfield wrote:
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew
That's a nuclear reactor.
Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.
GarryB- Posts : 38979
Points : 39475
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew
Hahaha... just look at the terminology... AIP uses in the west a hydrogen fuel CELL. A battery in the west is also called a dry CELL.
A battery uses a chemical reaction between acidic or other fluids or solids and metals like the lead battery in your car to generate electricity. Metals are often used because they shed electrons easily and an electric current is a free flow of electrons.
A Hydrogen fuel cell uses a chemical reaction that converts hydrogen gas into water with the by product of heat and water... and electricity.
Perhaps you should look up the English term "like".
Means similar but not identical to.
The addition of a fuel cell in the Lada-M does not change the crew size.
Sure it is not cheap but these subs are state of the art and it is still cheaper than a nuclear power plant.
And a hydrogen fuel cell does need stored hydrogen and stored oxygen to work... you can't make water with hydrogen alone...
so does aip so??
Russian AIP does not use hydrogen, it uses existing diesel supply on the boat to generate electricity to charge batteries while submerged and it isn't that heavy.
still too short compared to conventional 50-100km torpedoes
Domestic rocket propelled torpedoes have what range exactly?
navyfield- Posts : 118
Points : 69
Join date : 2013-05-27
i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.Stealthflanker wrote:navyfield wrote:
aip is not battery is a type of electricity generating system without oxygen and it is expencive complicates everything needs more space adds weight and needs more crew
That's a nuclear reactor.
Current AIP in non-nuclear submarine system still use oxygen in shape of LOX, be it MESMA, CCD, fuel cell and stirling engine.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.
Stealthflanker- Posts : 1410
Points : 1486
Join date : 2009-08-04
Age : 36
Location : Indonesia
- Post n°100
Re: Project 677: Lada/Amur(export) class submarine
Stealthflanker Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:56 pm
navyfield wrote:
i should have said air ,or precise -oxygen from the air.
but i thought you would get it.
but ,you didnt.
you can call it whatever you like msekskdfcbieqwjn , the underlying physics for generating power is the important.
Then ? Why don't we see U-212 with its AIP system...Does it have more crew than any comparable diesel-electric boat without AIP ?
The only AIP that add significant weight and additional manning is nuclear reactor, which exactly fit what you previously described.