BMPT "Terminator"

A drone in the class of predator or orion or Bt2 cost few million dollars. A buk missile is worth destroying them and you have more chance to hit them well before they can use their weapons.

Pantsir S1 in syria proved to be too short on radar detection to be invulnarable against them.

We are talking about big expensive drones.

I think that is the issue... you might have been talking about big expensive drones, but a Terminator wouldn't really get involved with such targets... as you mention BUK and Pantsir would be used against those sorts of targets, not a BMPT support vehicle.

Terminator might be used against close range battlefield drones but would need airburst 30mm cannon shells to deal with them properly.

That is not what I am saying. The discussion here seems to be obsessed with the notion that bull's eye hits from 2 km with such guns is feasible.

For AP ammo they just need to hit a target 2m by 2m most of the time at 2km... which is why the impacts on that target were so close together from perhaps 500m or less.

Against a moving target the idea that you could target the gun barrel or a specific part of the vehicle hull is amusing and of course easy, but actually hitting there on a moving target from that distance is near zero.

Fortunately because it is an automatic weapon a burst of 5-10 rounds should get 4-8 good hits on target most of the time to about 1.5km... at which range it will often penetrate the armour and do some serious damage.

For the HE rounds at 4km range you are firing at area targets anyway...

Yes, 2a42 is highly inaccurate when firing at high rate.

That seemed to be the same bits of video repeated over and over and over.

The burst at about 42 seconds looks like it was fired at the target and corrected with a horizontal sweep to the left rather than inaccurate rounds or gun fire.

The burst from 57 seconds even more so.

Those targets are probably about 1.5km to 2km away.

At high rate it is supposed to be shooting at aircraft and a bit of spread in the shots fired is good when shooting at aircraft as it increases hit probability.

It's very different set up between 125mm gun on T-90 and dual-30mm gun on BMPT. In the former, the 125mm gun is installed right in the turret axis. In the latter, each 30mm is installed far of the turret axis. Therefore, if only one gun fires, its recoil force of 30 - 50KN (3 - 5 tons) will make the turret spin and vibrate those just need a very little to make the ballistic less accurate.

Those 30mm guns are not that far off the central axis of the turret... no where near as far as the 2A38M on the Tunguska which have vastly more recoil energy.

The video above shows no rotational effect on the turret or the rounds fired down range.

If it really was a problem then they could have used a single twin barrel 30mm cannon as used on the Hind and also on the Su-25.... but they don't.

Wheeled version

Proof if proof were needed that it can fire both barrels at one time.

And still woefully under-equipped compared to IFVs they are supposed to supplant.

30mm cannon, rifle calibre machine gun mounted above the two 30mm cannon and two 30mm grenade launchers in the hull... actually sounds good enough along with Ataka missiles mounted on the turret...

I dont think they are to supplant infantry fighting vehicles. They are heavily armed rapid response attack vehicles. Useful in many situations from close quarters urban fighting to long distance attacks on infantry, small fortified positions, and lightly armored vehicles. I think it is a heavier and more direct answer to many problems where an IFV could be wasteful, as its job is to transfer and back up troops primarily.

The BMPT is a support vehicle designed to protect tanks from enemy infantry... whether ATGM teams or what ever... for use in places where it is just too dangerous to deploy infantry.

They would also be good convoy protection vehicles or base security vehicles.

Their lack of direct fire HE rounds like the 100mm gun of the BMP-3 or 73mm gun of the BMP-1 is not really a problem as they will be operating with tanks with direct fire 125mm guns.

The OG BMPTs as envisioned by the Soviets were primarily designed to accompany Soviet tanks as they pushed through highly irradiated zones where the thinner-skinned BMPs could not. <snip> constricting terrain so you could expect more or less equal numbers to tanks. That is simply too much, and a large part of why the Russian Army is not so sanguine about the BMPTs prospects alongside just better armed and protected IFVs coming online.

Not sure where that all came from, the BMPT is a tank support vehicle to provide protection for tanks from targets tanks are not ideal for fighting, like troops in the open and ATGMs etc etc. The vehicles the BMPT is replacing in Soviet use are the Shilka and Tunguska air defence vehicles and the BTR-40 air defence vehicle with twin 14.5mm HMGs that were used against ground targets. The problem with previous air defence vehicles is their serious lack of armour and their high cost (Shilka and Tunguska). When used correctly these vehicles were devastating, with their high elevation guns they could engage all sorts of targets on difficult terrain.

The real question at hand for the Russian forces is that the IFV armament is generally complimentary with the tanks armament, which means the BMP-3 weapons would be better suited to a range of enemy ground forces targets that does not overlap too much with those the tank is optimised to deal with.

Essentially the BMP-3s armament should be pretty good at dealing with a wide range of enemy infantry threats... in fact a mockup of an Armata BMPT seemed to show a 120mm gun/mortar with a 40mm grenade launcher and a 6 barrel 23mm cannon which would offer serious HE fire power out to about 13km range which is plenty, a main gun that can fire mortar and conventional shells for direct and indirect fire, a high rate of fire gatling gun for suppressing enemy positions which used heavy projectiles to make up for relatively low muzzle velocity (but still better than grenade launcher velocity).

The thing is that while the terminator is interesting a BMP-3 type armament with the single barrel 30mm gun replaced with either a 23mm cannon or a twin barrel 30mm cannon would offer better fire power and elevation to engage all sorts of difficult targets tanks don't have the gun elevation to deal with normally.

The IFV version of Armata could use the troop compartment for even more ammo and just retain the same weapons...

I thought bmpt was more or less for urban warfare as tanks performed very poorly as proven in first Chechen conflict.

In this regard, the current bmpt weapons seem sufficient.

Troops and tanks are used together because they compliment each other. Using tanks alone leaves them vulnerable to infantry attack, so BMPs are used to support and provide protection for the tanks and the tanks in turn provide protection for the BMPs and infantry.

The BMPT is an armoured vehicle designed to provide BMP protection to tanks but without troops... a bit like the use of AA gun vehicles to protect convoys and fire support for tank forces.

I think you are right bro, after mulling it over. i like this vehicle and it could serve quite a few functions but still it is a bit too specialized. IFVs could use their autocannons in a similar fashion, though with less armor, and get the same job done. now with the 57mm equipped T-15 it changes things. not only would it be superior in attack and fire support but it is better armored and on top of this it is a full fledged IFV. incredible.

The T-15 with a 57mm grenade launcher firing heavy HE rounds and also APFSDS rounds as well makes the Terminator redundant.

It is a mix of the 30mm cannon for armour piercing rounds... but the 57mm grenade launcher should have much more powerful APFSDS capacity than the 30mm, while the HE power wont be as good as the 100mm HE gun of the BMP-3 it will be pretty good with a HE shell of about 6-7kgs... which is only half the weight of the 100mm shells but it should be able to carry rather more and fire them in bursts and likely also have the laser command detonation system the 30mm guns use too to make it rather more capable.

Tank level armour means the troop compartment can be filled with extra ammo for use against a variety of threats... Kornet and Bulat also make it a very capable system too.
Perhaps two rear hull mounted remote weapon stations with HMGs and grenade launchers and two crew in the back to control them...

The future is clearing up: "Terminators" have reached the troops

In 2017, the Russian Ministry of Defense issued the first order for the supply of Terminator tank / fire support combat vehicles. Soon, this technique was built and even took part in the parade on Red Square. However, only now the first batch of BMPTs is entering trial operation on the basis of one of the formations of the ground forces.

Last news

On December 1, the press service of the Central Military District and the NPK Uralvagonzavod reported on the arrival of new equipment in the troops. A batch of eight BMPTs was transferred to the 90th Guards Tank Vitebsk-Novgorod twice Red Banner division of the Central Military District (Sverdlovsk and Chelyabinsk regions). Experimental military operation of such vehicles is organized on the basis of the division's motorized rifle subunits.

According to the press service of the Central Military District, the crews for the new combat vehicles have already been formed and are now undergoing retraining. Military personnel are introduced to the design features, basic qualities and combat capabilities. Training events are held with the participation of representatives of the manufacturer.

Details of future trial operation are not provided. At the same time, the messages from Uralvagonzavod and the Central Military District indicate the main features, functions and advantages of the new model of equipment. It should be expected that in the course of the upcoming events, the servicemen of the 90th Guards Tank Division will check how the real characteristics and capabilities of the new equipment correspond to the manufacturer's statements.

Long way to the troops

The first versions of the modern BMPT, which gave rise to a whole family of projects, appeared at the turn of the nineties and two thousandths. Such equipment regularly participated in exhibitions and attracted public attention - but the interest of the army was limited. One of the BMPT versions passed all the necessary tests and was even recommended for service, but did not enter the army.

The situation changed only a few years ago. The first contract for the supply of Terminators to the Russian ground forces was signed at the Army-2017 forum. It provided for the construction and transfer of 12 production vehicles by the end of 2018. Already at the beginning of 2018, NPK Uralvagonzavod showed the first BMPTs of this order. Shortly thereafter, three armored vehicles took part in the parade on Red Square.

In the autumn of the same year, the Ministry of Defense announced the imminent transfer of 10 BMPTs to units of the 90th Guards Tank Division for trial operation. It was planned to spend about a year on these events. However, as follows from further messages, such a transfer did not take place.

Apparently, the technique of the first batch needed certain modifications, which took a lot of time to complete. Because of this, the real terms of the transfer of the "Terminators" of the 90th division have shifted to the right by more than two years. In addition, the first batch included 8 cars, and not 10, as reported in 2018.

The future is clearing up

At the moment, there is only one contract for the supply of "Terminators" to the Russian army, and it provides for the construction of only 12 vehicles. New orders for this technique have not yet appeared, and the possibility of placing them is still in question. The reasons for this are simple and related to the current success of the entire program.

According to the 2017 contract, NPK Uralvagonzavod must assemble and hand over to the customer 12 BMPTs. This technique must pass all the necessary checks, fine-tuning and experimental military operation. Only after all these measures can the army make final conclusions and place new orders. As the events of 2018-2020 show, at the time of the launch of production, the equipment needed fine-tuning.

Fortunately, some of the necessary activities have been successfully completed, and the Terminators have reached military operation. This means that the identified shortcomings have been successfully corrected, and in the foreseeable future the Ministry of Defense will be able to draw final conclusions. Then we should expect new orders, due to which other formations will be re-equipped.

The general needs of the Russian army for BMPT are still unknown. Motorized rifle units of the 90th Guards Tank Division received only 8 vehicles; where the other 4 products of the first order will go has not yet been specified. In addition, it is not known whether all the division's needs for such equipment have been met. The number of divisions that can be retrofitted with "Terminators" is also in question. Thus, the number of BMPTs required by the troops can be estimated within a fairly wide range - from tens to hundreds of pieces.

Interest for troops

A recent press release from the Ministry of Defense mentions the main advantages of the BMPT and the reasons why such equipment is of interest to the troops. So, the use of "Terminators" in the same battle formations with tanks allows you to increase the capabilities of the unit and reduce the risks for combat vehicles. The BMPT is capable of fighting lightly armored vehicles and tanks, as well as participating in military air defense, hitting low-flying aircraft and helicopters.

Other advantages are mentioned in the message from NPK Uralvagonzavod. Thus, the main barrel armament can be used with large elevation angles, which allows attacking targets on the upper floors of buildings. The complex of weapons is multi-channel. In terms of the size of the BMPT ammunition, it is twice the size of a typical modern infantry fighting vehicle. It is argued that one "Terminator" in its combat effectiveness corresponds to two infantry fighting vehicles and a platoon of motorized riflemen.

In general, the BMPT is an armored combat vehicle of an unusual type with protection and mobility at the level of the main tank and more varied weapons to defeat a wide range of targets in a wide range of ranges, incl. with the possibility of simultaneous shelling of several. This unusual concept is still a topic of controversy; the same applies to the question of the need for such armored vehicles of the army. However, the Russian Ministry of Defense has already provided positive answers to both questions. The BMPT was considered necessary for the ground forces, which resulted in a contract for the first production vehicles and the recent news of the beginning of experimental military operation.

In parallel with the preparation of "Terminators" for full service, the development of the project continues. New modifications of armored vehicles with new weapon systems are proposed. A great future is predicted for a variant of the BMPT with a 57-mm automatic cannon of increased power. The possibility of transferring the Terminator units to the modern Armata platform is also being considered. However, all these projects are still at the very early stages.

The long-awaited ending?

The latest news is conducive to optimism, but does not put an end to the protracted epic with the creation, promotion and development of tank support combat vehicles. Eight "Terminators" made it to the experimental military operation, which may open the way for mass production and use of such equipment.

Earlier it was reported that it will take about a year for trial operation in the troops. This means that at the end of 2021, the Ministry of Defense will be able to decide on further plans for the BMPT and take appropriate steps. Most likely, a positive scenario will be launched, and new orders for serial equipment will appear. Thus, the timing and volumes of upcoming purchases are now becoming an urgent issue.

wouldn't the 57mm cannon be a better choice? the 57mm grenade launcher would be pretty low pressure. how fast do you think the apfsds would go? wonder what they would look like. if they could get the apfsds for that launcher to go at least 2200/2300 mph it would be pretty effective.

did they ever try to make a 100mm apfsds for the bmp-3 low pressure cannon?

Well the whole concept behind telescopic ammo is that the two main rounds... anti personel and anti armour are effectively opposite in the sense that anti personel needs the heaviest projectile with the most HE you can fit while velocity is not that important, whereas the anti armour round is the opposite... relatively light but as long as you can make it but as much propellent as you can fit to get max velocity.

If you look at the 57mm grenade round the HE bomb is huge which makes it excellent against soft targets and even things like bunkers or light vehicles, but the APFSDS can be much bigger and heavier but still with much more room for propellent than any 30x165mm cannon round could possibly manage.

Before we were shown the APFSDS round we assumed it could only fire the HE round which while rather effective because of its weight would be too restrictive for a vehicle which might come up against enemy IFVs for which 30mm APFSDS and APDS rounds are marginal.

The increased projectile size and weight and the enormous volume available for propellent should allow the 57mm grenade APFSDS round to offer much much better penetration performance than anything from a 30x165mm case.

Without the APFSDS round I would have said the T-15 would have to have the 57mm cannon which otherwise seems to me to be more of an AA round.

With the APFSDS round the 57mm grenade launcher can be the standard main gun for the BMP without needing an enormous capacity for ATGMs to compensate... which is ironic because the turret shown has Kornet EM and Bulat missiles all over it too which is even better.

Whether they do to the 100mm rifled gun of the BMP-3 as they did to this 57mm grenade launcher will be interesting... I would think the physical size of the 100mm round would mean amazing HE power but also that 60mm Israeli light tank gun level of APFSDS round performance too which would make it an excellent low recoil weapon for light weight tank vehicles... the main drawback is the primary round being HE the 100mm gun is rifled, but it already has a missile designed for it too so it has a step up on the 57mm grenade launcher.

The 57mm cannon has a guided round but the 57mm grenade launcher lacks the available shell case for propellent to have a full calibre full length missile round.

I always thought the Terminator would benefit from having little flat turrets on the hull that could sit out a bit above the tracks that had say 270 degree angles of fire and had the new 40mm grenade launcher plus a PK machine gun mounted together so you could fire MG fire out to 800-1,000m and 40mm grenades out to 2.5km targets...

With their AI auto targeting systems imagine replacing the two crew either side of the driver with bin magazines for 500 40mm grenades and 2,000 rifle calibre machine gun rounds on each side so the driver or commander can select targets and engage them with the hull mounted weapons, while the gunner engages other targets with the main guns...

George1 wrote:

0:41 - - now imagine that you are on the receiving side.

The thing is that the new standard missiles like Kornet and Bulat use laser beam riding guidance so most BMPs and BMPTs and BTRs and other platforms that might have 30mm cannons will also likely have suitable lasers already fitted to set off remote detonation shells, and the performance improvement such rounds would achieve makes any integration costs well worth it.

The large volumes of production rounds also make the round most likely much more cost effective... in addition to making the platforms using the ammo more effective too.

Even at sea imagine firing a burst of 30mm cannon shells at a sea target that is not cooperating... the first burst detonates 300m short in mid air and the radio signal says the next burst are going to explode on target...