Russian Gun Artillery Thread

volna wrote:

George1 wrote:82-mm mortar carrier 2S41

Very interesting!
And what is the upper left one?

Up seems to be something based on the BMP-3, and the armoured truck with external 120mm mortar that is the second picture. There is more info about this project in this topic in the page 8.

George1 wrote:82-mm mortar carrier 2S41

Surely no-one of the three will be finally adopted by the Russian Armed Forces. Like the project of the truck with external mortar of 120mm this project seems more for export, than for the Russian Armed Forces. In my view also seems below the current standards for the Russian Armed Forces.

For me would be far behind the project of 120mm based on the new BMD-4M platform. Even I like more the current 2S23 and 2S9.

This project with 82mm looks like the initial Zauralets-D mounted on a Tigr, but then it was a 120mm mortar if I'm not wrong. This one:

Recently it has been a use of land weapons that originally have been anti-aircraft, for land roles. The most recent examples of it have been:

57mm: S-60
14.5mm: ZPU-1/2/4
23 mm: ZU-23-2

The war means the end of these weapons in Russia. These weapons can be exhausted in Russia by the needs of the war in Syria. Some people see it as a problem for Russia, begin to think which weapons can succeed to them?

Looking at the Russian arsenals in overall terms, I see not it as a problem, Russia has the necessary to move forward by two ways, self-propelled and portable/man-portable, with improvements over the heavy towed weapons in both cases.

The alone land weapons of this type remaining in the Russian Army are all self propelled weapons, the oldest and most obvious case still present in the Russian arsenals would be:

23mm: ZSU-23-4

But also there are more weapons present today in the Russian Armed Forces that can give this same step, from anti-aircraft weapons to land roles, and have the advantage of being possible the use as portable/man-portable weapons. If available, not sure in all the cases, the use of these weapons for land roles would mean an improvement over the heavy towed weapons used until now. From older to newer, by year of end of production:

23mm: AM-23 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afanasev_Makarov_AM-23 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%9C-23
30mm: NR-30 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudelman-Rikhter_NR-30 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9D%D0%A0-30
23mm: GSh-23 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-23 ///// https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A8-23

Cheking the links to the Russian wikipedia is possible to see in which aircrafts have been used these weapons. The last and most modern would be available for sure today, and is in production still (for the Yak-130), like the rest of the weapons of the GSh-23 (23mm) and GSh-30 (30mm) families of weapons.

Russia to launch production of counter-artillery radar "penicillin" in 2019

The Ruselectronics Group, part of Russia’s Rostec state hi-tech corporation, will launch the serial production of the advanced artillery reconnaissance system Penicillin in 2019, the group’s press office said.The system can locate hostile guns five seconds after a gun shot, the press office added.


"The state trials of the system are nearing completion. Its serial production is planned to begin in January 2019. The system is being developed by the Vektor Research Institute that is a Ruselectronics Group subsidiary," the press office said.

The acoustic-thermal artillery reconnaissance system Penicillin is designed to search for the firing positions of guns, mortars and multiple launch rocket systems and the launch sites of air defense and tactical missile systems and adjust friendly artillery fire simultaneously.

According to the developers, artillery fire is traditionally adjusted by scouts operating on the frontline at the risk of their lives. "Compared to them, the Penicillin can operate at a safe distance from the enemy without an operator in automatic mode, which minimizes the effect of the human factor," the press office said. The system accomplishes combat missions within an area of 25 kilometers (15.5 miles) wide. The system comprises several ground-installed sound receivers and an electro-optical module.

The Penicillin receives and processes acoustic signals from gun shots (explosions) and transmits information on the place of shell bursts, strike accuracy and the location of weapons. It takes the system less than five seconds to locate a single target

Source: http://www.armyrecognition.com/may_2017_global_defense_security_news_industry/russia_products_artillery_radar_penicillin_in_2019_81205175.html

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I wonder whether regular artillery units (Artillery Brigades) or standard motor rifle units (artillery units of motor rifle brigades/divisions) will receive this new radar.

Very impressive anti artillery system , Penicillin ,another report...


https://sputniknews.com/military/201705141053601059-penicillin-artillery-system/





1)Allows for near instantaneous retaliation to enemy artillery
2)Can detect massive artillery fire 90% of it.  
3)Contrary to NATO systems ,is not only significantly faster but also Does not reveal its position to anti radiation missiles and enemy fire is totally passive scanner.
4)it can detect mortars ,or rocket artillery .
5) Mass production in 2 year


This is the kind of winning technology Russia needs. In combination with such small
4x4 wheeled mortar cannon mounted in small jeeps , This could allow Russia military
to bring forward close to the front line a really massive artillery fire ,in highly mobile units.
And produce them is very Huge numbers.. good and good. The Russian army in my opinion
is getting the coolest things of all , even more than airforce and navy or even space forces.
You have armata T-14, then T-15 ,kurganets ,BMP-3 then all this small very mobile but very lethal artillery , to fight close to the front line ,and then TOS Flame Throwers , Koalitsiya 152mm artillery and iskanders.  Russia army will have the best tanks ,the best infantry vehicles ,best transport ,best artillery and next generation counter artillery. The only thing missing is something comparable to US MGM-140 ATACMS tactical artillery that have 300km range, that could replace Toshka missiles. and that is very simple and cheap , not made to defeat air defenses but instead to bomb terrorist ,and could be mass produced ,to counter NATO 300km MGM-140 ATACMS rocket artillery ballistic missiles.

Any mention about how it is loaded?

Would be nice if it had auto loading with no loading crew...

volna wrote:

George1 wrote:82-mm mortar carrier 2S41

Very interesting!
And what is the upper left one?

This was a very interesting picture, and more still now that we know what it was.

Just in the same picture:

2S38: 57mm based on BMP-3
2S40: 120mm based on Ural armoured truck
2S41: 82mm based on Typhoon-VDV

No-one of them seems a strong solution for the Russian Armed Forces.

Projects with unknown designation:

125mm based on BMD-4M. Sprut SDM-1

120mm based on Tigr.

120mm initially reported as 2S36 Zauralets-D. The current reports talk about different thing.

Available options:

2S37
2S39
2S43...

2S38: 57mm based on BMP-3
2S40: 120mm based on Ural armoured truck
2S41: 82mm based on Typhoon-VDV

No-one of them seems a strong solution for the Russian Armed Forces.

What are you trying to say.

For small light forces... ie airborne, or naval infantry, or recon units with typhoon based vehicles a light mortar armed vehicle would be very useful and be able to carry more ready to use rounds than a heavier calibre like a 120mm weapon.

The 82mm gun would be an excellent choice in that its HE fire power would be impressive along with its direct fire accuracy and the number of rounds such a small vehicle could carry would make it an excellent choice.

It actually wasn't that long ago the US military actually tested a humvee with an 82mm Vasilek auto mortar mounted on its back.

Replace the 4 round clip feed with a continuous belt feed and make it dual feed so two types of ammo can be chosen rapidly and you have a very potent light weapon...

Regarding the 57mm gun mounted on the BMP-3... the 57mm gun will be a potent light anti armour weapon, but also be useful for anti aircraft use and even an anti ambush or convoy protection calibre that could be used in a range of situations where there is no need to have a particular chassis or vehicle family.

An airbase needs air defence vehicles but could also come under ground attack in a COIN type situation... nothing will smack down an enemy drone like a 57mm guided shell, and nothing will stop an armoured truck like a 57mm unguided SAPHEI Frag shell. It might be the only tracked vehicle on the base so it does not need to be a Kurganets or Armata based vehicle... there is no logistics train so parts can be kept on site to keep it running... it would likely be cheaper than a more modern vehicle family.

Taking into account that many (more than a 60%) of the projects with 2S designation reached not active service in the Russian Armed Forces, I do not think the 2S38, 2S40 and 2S41 will be between the projects that reach active service in the Russian Armed Forces.

Said it I do not expect a public rejection to damage not the prospect of these projects to export.

Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

I also expect future successful projects based on the Armata, Kurganets and Bumerang platforms.

I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.

Between the recent projects I expect a success of the 2S35, 2S42 and the Sprut SDM-1 (that likely can have also its own 2S designation).

Sprut wont get a 2S# designation because it is not an artillery vehicle... it is a light tank. It should get a T-## designation.

I have some doubt about some option (125mm antitank or 120mm indirect+direct) based on the Typhoon 6x6 platform. I'm not sure if necessary.

I agree with the 125mm calibre, and the 120mm is too big for a four wheel vehicle but for a six wheel vehicle the 120mm weapon should be fine.

The question is what they expect from their light recon forces... high speed, high mobility and high fire power... the question is, do they need a 125mm gun and 120mm gun mortar calibre.

I rather suspect the HE power of the larger gun would be useful but the high velocity rounds would be less useful against the medium to lighter targets a recon unit would come up against. The 120mm would be useful against solid targets but if an enemy MBT is encountered missiles would be a better simpler option. The accuracy of direct fire 120mm shells would make engaging many hard targets like bunkers easier than using missiles, but then highly mobile recon units should have CAS support and long range artillery support from 70km range 152mm guns to Tochka and Iskander, so fire power should not be a problem.

57mm high velocity direct fire guns will be very potent too.

I believe the Sprut is designated as an SP anti-tank artillery piece giving it the 2S... code.

The D-30 is a very impressive weapon, but it is a calibre that could be replaced within the Russian military without losing too much in terms of capability.

I remember reading that at max range of 15km its circle of impact, or CEP where most rounds would land if there are no faults with the ammo or gun was about 60m long and just under 10m wide, which is rather impressive accuracy in my opinion.

The fact that they are being transferred to units trying to start avalanches to improve public safety suggests they are reserve weapons now and will gradually be withdrawn from service.

I have seen footage of recoilless rifles being used for the same role too... the SPG-9 in particular.

The D-30 has the advantage of 360 degree traverse which would make working with snow drifts in different places much easier without having to move the gun each time.

George1 wrote:Roshydromet will receive 68 towed howitzer D-30

   In accordance with the decree of the Government of the Russian Federation No. 2461-r, signed on November 8, 2017, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation must forward to Roshydromet 68 122-mm D-30 towed howitzers to ensure the operation of the anti-avalanche service. Also, 68 individual and 8 group sets of spare tools and accessories for them, and 4,500 high-explosive artillery shell shots of OF-462, must be transferred.

Financial provision of costs associated with the implementation of the order will be implemented within the budgetary allocations provided by Roshydromet in the federal budget for the implementation of the state program "Environmental Protection" for 2012-2020. "



The addition of bmpd. Up to now, 100-mm CS-19 anti-aircraft guns and BS-3 field guns, as well as mortars of calibres 120, 160 and 240 mm, were used to equip the Roshydromet anti-avalanche service, and one 152-mm 2A36 "Hyacinth-B" cannon is used in Kamchatka. , and D-30 howitzers were absent.

Roshydromet is a federal executive body under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Natural Resources and Ecology of the Russian Federation.

Then, this mean an exit of these pieces of the Russian Armed Forces, to go to a gouvenrmental agency that will use them for civil purposes, not military. In fact this is a decommission.

Also very likely this mean the retirement of the gouvernmental agency of the weapons used before for this purpose, that likely have been going, or will go fast, to Syria.

Interesting, and logical.

Taking into account that the 152mm and 122mm artillery pieces are between the armament that I would consider of exclusive use of the Russian Armed Forces, it would be logical if Russia considers a militarization of the service of these weapons for this purpose.

George1 wrote:what a civil service will do the howitzers?

They are used to start controlled avalanches in the mountain areas.

George1 wrote:what a civil service will do the howitzers?

They need it to fight of yeti, baba Yaga, vodyanoy and Koschei

They are unique vehicles with unique capabilities...

Though the fact that they are being refurbished suggests my earlier speculation of heavier weapons for Armata brigades/divisions is probably wrong.

With new 152mm guns reaching 70km with standard guided rounds most targets would not need such specialised weapons.

Having a reserve of those weapons however would be useful, especially if the guidance kits can be attached to those rounds too making them much more useful.

152mm rounds are generally in the 40kg payload weight range, while the 240mm mortar rounds can weigh between 100 and 130kgs, and the 203mm rounds in the 110kg weight range over a much greater distance than the mortar rounds.

George1 wrote:Uraltransmash is to refurbish (& upgrade?) all reserve stock(>400) Tyulpan (2S4) self-propelled 240mm mortars for the MoD by 2020.16 Tyulpan (2S4) have been refurbished & upgraded so far.Undisclosed no.of Pion (2S7) 203mm SP guns are to be refurbished too.

https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20171116/1508902617.html

This is also good news for Russia.

Both calibers are useful, and are likely to remain, because are not redundant.

I do not think this affects to potential future weapons of these calibers.

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7008p850-russian-ground-forces-news-2#209423

franco wrote:MOSCOW, Nov. 17 - RIA Novosti. The Russian Defense Ministry will maintain 122-mm self-propelled howitzers 2C1 "Gvozdika" and modernize them, equipping an automated management system, the Izvestia newspaper reported on Friday.

"The military department is discussing the modernization of the" Gvozdik "with the representatives of industry.The decision to modernize is taken in light of the successful use of self-propelled howitzers in almost all armed conflicts of recent times, including in Syria." Carnations "kept mobility in a highly rugged terrain, where heavier self-propelled guns could not pass, "the article says.

It notes that after a thorough modernization the crew will only have to press the button, so that the system itself made the calculations, put the gun on the target at the given coordinates and determined the necessary number and type of ammunition. Howitzers will also receive shells of increased power and accuracy.

"The military department in the near future must finally decide on the tactical and technical task for the modernization of self-propelled howitzers, the number of artillery installations to be converted and, consequently, the price of the issue." It is expected that one of the enterprises of NPK Uralvagonzavod, - the report says.

According to the publication, "the highlight of the updated self-propelled artillery systems (SAU) will be an automated guidance and fire control system that will minimize crew participation and increase fire efficiency." The self-propelled guns should receive a more advanced ballistic calculator of the sighting complex, new sights and, possibly, a new chassis domestic production. "

Just at the begin of this page it was a discussion about the future of the 2S1.

As expected the 2S1 will continue long time in the Russian Armed Forces.

GarryB wrote:They are unique vehicles with unique capabilities...

Though the fact that they are being refurbished suggests my earlier speculation of heavier weapons for Armata brigades/divisions is probably wrong.

With new 152mm guns reaching 70km with standard guided rounds most targets would not need such specialised weapons.

Having a reserve of those weapons however would be useful, especially if the guidance kits can be attached to those rounds too making them much more useful.

152mm rounds are generally in the 40kg payload weight range, while the 240mm mortar rounds can weigh between 100 and 130kgs, and the 203mm rounds in the 110kg weight range over a much greater distance than the mortar rounds.

And, as if by coincidence, today's subject in the Chasavoy program was about the Tyulpan and Pion heavy artillery.


And AFAIK, this is the first time we are seeing the 240mm laser guided round SMELCHYAK of the 2S4 Tyulpan mortar.
https://i.imgur.com/bSKpVdP.jpg

You can watch the whole program here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W2HPH4eKlA