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    Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    TheGeorgian
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    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:49 pm

    Burrying the hatchet with neither the Abkhazians nor the Ossetians does present any special or very difficult hurdle in that respect if the doors for talks and rehabilitation were open. That is a fact. It has been done before and it has been proven very succesful. Despite what happened and it would work even better despite recent events. But they are kept closed, forcefuly. Nowdays these two regions present nothing but huge isolated ( to us ) Russian military bases with fences stretched along the DMZ in an effort to undermine any sort of rapprochement and convergence. Nobody should have illusions. People are not stupid. No matter how much you try to influence their thinking. They know what is going on, when they are played and what political role or significance they have.

    If you rape someone do you expect them to suddenly want to become part of your family?

    Follow the context please. That aside, there was no "rape" nor is that - for a millenias long livetogheter - a "sudden" event. Calling a little and short proxy war which sadly happened to have a tolerable civilian death toll on both sides considering the circumstances and potential of full scale conflict, is not only inapropriate but almost an insult. Not only because of the specific events and losses on both sides but especialy considering the last wars, which had entire populations massacred by the thousands and almost a quarter million displaced. On the Georgian side atrocities were at least commited by armed formations made of criminals who didn't care if their victims were Abkhaz, Georgians, Russians or Greek and those were all outlawed and disbanded, while their leaders got hunted down and prosecuted. Almost all of them escaped to Russia btw. On the other side the Abkhaz are still today celebrating their mass murderers as war heroes. You people are very quick to ignore such things and go blindly one sided, than be like surprised when there is little agreement.

    In fact NATO membership will likely lead to both regions voting ala Crimea to join the Russian Federation.

    The more Russia tries to forcefully achieve that, the more such a possibility is completly ruled out. Entirely different cases / worlds. Can't draw analogues to Crimea.


    Russia is hostile to Georgia because Georgia made it so by violating a peace treaty and murdering their paratroopers and men and lots of South Ossetians.

    Russia has been politicaly and physicaly hostile to Georgia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. What happened in 2008 was Saakashvili's stupidity to give Russia a valid reason for military intervention. "Murdering" does not apply to two opposing forces combating eachother. I still haven't seen any proof that the Russian garrison in Tskhinvali acted completly out of self defence and the Georgians simply thought it was a good idea to open fire on them and destroy the base. I personaly am convinved as soon as hostilities started between Georgian and Ossetian troops, the Russian MC provided fire support for the Ossetians, thus provoking attention from the Georgians. I've heard the official briefing which concluded that Georgian troops acted out of self defence coming under fire from the barracks. I have also heard the Russian version of that story. There are video tapes, none of them show how it all started. I naturaly also don't know what went down and I am not supporting the Georgian version because I am Georgian and thus obliged to believe only the Georgian version, but for me it makes more sense, be it tactical or just because of common sense. For the soldiers who took part in that conflict it is just a tragedy anyway.

    Georgia joining NATO wont save Georgia from Russian retaliation if Georgia tries to invade South Ossetia or Abkhazia, and you would have to be an idiot to think Russia wants to invade Georgia.

    The idea of joining NATO is not to be able to recapture both regions .... but to have some protection against Russia.

    Russia is physicaly invading Georgia as we speak by constantly expanding the imaginary "border" it is drawing through our country almost splitting it ahalf.

    Saakashvili not being the president of Georgia anymore / or nationals not leading Georgia anymore, is the sole reason why things aren't escalating right now. Other nations would have allready resorted to defensive measures. The current leadership simply doesn't deploy troops because it would mean recognizing any borders. That's why nothing is happening.

    The US wants bases close to Russia... that is why they want Georgia to join NATO... but all Georgia gets out of this is a very hostile neighbour.

    Again, nothing would / could have stopped the US from doing that and also put Georgia into NATO if they wanted to.

    They allready got Turkey which is very close to Russia. Closer than any other NATO nation. That is allready more than enough for the USA and in particular NATO Europe.

    So you want to join NATO AND be friends with Russia?

    You want US military bases on your territory but no Russian bases anywhere nearby?

    Sounds like you are not telling the whole story.

    Funny you say that. The whole story is that we had Russian bases on our territory for decades and they were still active until just "recently" ( the last base in Georgia proper got closed in 2007 ) and now there are 2 expanded Russian army bases on our two contested regions. Do you see a single NATO base in Georgia, anywhere ? - nope. That's pretty much the whole story. Correct me if I am wrong.

    US bases might as well be NATO bases as NATO is the stormtrooper of US ambitions.

    US bases = NATO bases

    but how do you see US bases in Georgia ? that is even far less likely to ever happen.

    Even just trying to join is pushing Russia away and telling them you are an enemy.

    We are running in circles here. You know the reasons for the entire situation.


    If you did to the US what you did to Russia in 2008 there would have been regime change in Georgia.

    As Flaming python mentions... Russia doesn't need more land and is not interested in expanding its empire to include SO or Abkhazia or Georgia... if they wanted that they could have.... Saakashvillian gave them the perfect opportunity if that was their goal.

    Saakashvili gave Putin the perfect opportunity for several political / military agendas. He pretty much served it to him on a silver plate. Georgia's total annexion was an option in 2008 which was considered but simply not agreed on because it would have been a step too far. Almost all of Georgia's major cities got captured and most military bases destroyed. Only pressure from the internaional community prevented more damage and deeper incursion. Parts that were under Georgian control since the 90s got completly taken and are now sealed away by fence installations. So that is debunked by default. Other than that, sure if Moscow wanted they could have taken Tbilisi as well and changed the regime. But they didn't dare to go that far as much as Putin wanted to hang Saakashvili by the balls. Especialy not with all the international shitstorm. You can take parts of a nation, but not simply take an entire country. Not these days anymore.

    These are the sort of people you want to hitch your horse to?

    No. The truth told, I'd rather have a friendly neighbourhood around me and good relations with Russia than loosing my identity completly in that mess that is EU. If EU offered some fairness, balance and prospect even Russia would have joined in. But Russia on the other hand does also not offer any prospect in it's current condition. We need something to elevate us from 3rd world status to worth living. Right now, Russia itself has more than enough problems to fully achieve that.

    Either way Georgia has to do a bit of grovelling for the death and destruction it caused... offering compensation to the victims would be a good start and a nice gesture... but really you need to talk to the governments of the two regions to find out what they want instead of making it all about Russia.

    I can only repeat what I've allready said earlier. Something like that wouldn't be a problem. At all. But it simply is all about Russia. If Russia doesn't stop dictating the terms and what those people have to say in accordance of the general policy against us, peaceful talks and solutions are more than just doable. It's all in Russia's hands.
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:48 pm

    Abkhazia remembering fellow-countrymen missing since war with Georgia

    The plight of more than 150 fighters of Abkhazian armed units and peaceful civilians is still unknown even more than twenty years

    SUKHUM, August 30. /TASS/. People in Abkhazia are remembering their fellow-countrymen who went missing during the Georgian-Abkhazian war of 1992-1993.

    Members of the public movement called Abkhazian Mothers for Peace and Social Justice, relatives of the missing, veterans, and public activists came to the Memorial to the Fallen Fighters in Sukhum’s Park of Glory on Sunday to lay flowers.

    At 20:00 hours local time, candles were lit on the embankment opposite the Sukhum Drama Theater where a fountain in memory of the missing was installed four years ago.

    Abkhazia has an immediate relationship to the International Day of the Disappeared, which is marked on August 30. The plight of more than 150 fighters of Abkhazian armed units and peaceful civilians is still unknown even more than twenty years after the end of hostilities.

    Until 2013, nothing was known about practically all the persons who disappeared during the war. Their family members and friends would come to the Park of Glory and lay flowers at the tombs of unknown soldiers where 43 unidentified bodies had been buried.

    "Thanks to support from the International Committee of the Red Cross, the fate of 36 fighters is known today," a spokesperson for the Abkhazian government’s commission for the missing told TASS. "They turned out to be among the 43 individuals, whose remains were exhumed in the Park of Glory in June 2013."

    "The identities of seven individuals were established in December 2013, fourteen others in February, June and December 2014 and fifteen more, in May 2015," he said. "Most of them died in the course of the March and July, 1993, operations to free Sukhum from the troops, which reported to the Georgian State Council.

    The identification became possible thanks to the special procedures held under the auspices of the International Red Cross in a laboratory in Zagreb.

    The problem of a search for the missing is one of the items discussed at the Geneva consultations on security and stability in South Caucasus that involve Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the UN.

    In 2013, Georgia and Abkhazia launched a Coordination Mechanism to Find Possible Burial Places of the Missing. These efforts draw on support from the Red Cross.
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    Post  Godric on Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:24 am

    Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC

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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:17 am

    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.
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    Post  Rodinazombie on Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:28 am

    Werewolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    The USA is acting like a spoilt, petulant little child. It doesnt know what to do so its wailing its arms around, flinging its toys everywhere not realising it just shit itself and is sitting in its own excrement.

    These tantrums will come to nothing, i wouldnt even worry about it. Even europe is starting to distance itself from american nonsense.
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    Post  Godric on Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:23 am

    Rodinazombie wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    The USA is acting like a spoilt, petulant little child. It doesnt know what to do so its wailing its arms around, flinging its toys everywhere not realising it just shit itself and is sitting in its own excrement.

    These tantrums will come to nothing, i wouldnt even worry about it. Even europe is starting to distance itself from american nonsense.

    their severe butthurt is making them look for every and any reason to throw mud at ?Russia as they have been found with their pants down again ... like when the polite green men took Crimea peacefully will leaving America and Nato in the dark
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    Post  Werewolf on Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:56 am

    I think the problem with the US and their attempt and struggle for one NWO is that they played and planned their road based on submissive countries that all at some point by now should eat what US shits without  a single word, but now they are struggling to adjust to the countermeasures against their foreign policy what the BRICS are doing to their economy, by simply unleashing their submissive slave status in economics and are taking slowly over. They act like a beheaded chicken and decide their short term tactics based on which spot (tactic) the beheaded chicken stops moving to react to BRICS and Russias actions.
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    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:27 am

    If the ICC does not indict the Georgian government of Suckasshvilli then it will prove itself a kangaroo court joke.

    Recall that there was a surprise attack on the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvalli, at midnight August 8, 2008 (8/8/Cool
    by Suckasshvilli's forces with artillery and MLRS barrages. During the course of this ethnic cleansing campaign that
    had a short life thanks to Russian intervention over 2000 Ossetians died.

    What are these "war crimes" by Russia that the ICC does not explicitly outline? The ICC better follow the "collateral damage"
    precedent of the USA.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:09 am

    It will be clear what sort of verdict they will come to when they describe the events leading up to the invasion...

    Was it georgian forces heroically shelling the South Ossetian capital because the Russians were invading.... ????

    Or if it was a Russian intervention to stop georgian shelling of the South Ossetian capital.... I suspect they will come out with the former...
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:27 am

    Russia and Abkhazia are to complete the formation of the combined army group by the end of 2018

    Abkhazia parliament ratifies agreement with Russia on combined army group
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/845265
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    Post  George1 on Fri Feb 19, 2016 8:49 pm

    Referendum on South Ossetia joining Russia russia should be held in special way — leader

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/world/857966
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    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:06 am

    Georgia's Refusal to Sign Peace Deal Reveals Revanchist Policy - Abkhaz FM

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160317/1036437385/georgia-abkhazia-ossetia-peace-deal.html#ixzz4395EWlRl
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    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:04 am

    South Ossetia plans to revive republic’s historical name of Alania

    More:
    http://tass.com/world/910410
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    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:59 am

    Russian Duma to review call to recognize 1920 South Ossetia genocide — speaker


    The Parliament of South Ossetia stated the 1920 events "were not appropriately assessed, the masterminds and those behind the genocide of South Ossetians were not held accountable"

    MOSCOW, August 1. /TASS/. Chairman of the State Duma (Russian Parliament’s lower chamber) Vyacheslav Volodin has announced that as soon as the South Ossetia’s Parliament submits an appeal to the Duma to recognize the genocide of the South Ossetians in 1920 by Georgia, the document will be reviewed at the next Duma Council meeting.

    "The State Duma has taken careful note of the South Ossetian Parliament’s statement to recognize the Georgian genocide of South Ossetians in 1920. The next scheduled Duma Council meeting, which involves the Duma leadership, leaders of all political factions and committee chairs, will review this appeal," the speaker told reporters on Wednesday.

    The South Ossetian parliamentarians have sent the appeal to officially acknowledge Georgian nationalists’ genocide of South Ossetians in 1920 to the Russian leadership, the State Duma and the Federation Council (upper house), the Parliament’s website reads. The statement specifies that "the 1920 events were not appropriately assessed, the masterminds and those behind the genocide of South Ossetians were not held accountable."

    After South Ossetia declared its right for self-determination and ascension to the Soviet Russia, "the Georgian government sent their units to suppress South Ossetia" in June 1920, the statement points out. According to it, "the Georgian troops eliminated most of the residential communities in South Ossetia." "Several thousand people were killed, which was between 8 and 25% of the whole population, according to different assessments."

    In 1989-1992, Georgia "again attempted ethnic cleansings against the Ossetian people, but the Russian interference in 2008, which forced Georgia to [declare] peace, prevented the people of South Ossetia from being completely wiped out," the appeal says.

    https://tass.com/world/1071424
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:37 pm

    I guess we can presume that because there were no claims of Russian war crimes during the conflict in Georgia that the war crimes of Georgian forces vastly outweighed those committed by the Russians?
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    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Aug 06, 2019 9:48 pm






    Ukrainians tried to stage anti-Russian provocations during the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia in 2008:


    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/302/ukraine-participated-invasion-south-ossetia




    But Putin supposedly claims that "Russians and Ukrainians are same people."


    Will Russia survive Putin?




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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:46 am

    Combat aircraft of the Russian Federation concentrated near the borders of Georgia
    The military of Ukraine, Georgia and NATO are working out another "scenario 08.08.08"
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:43 am

    Russia is better off without most ukrainians... but that is the genius of what Putin said... pro Russian ukrainians are worth saving... anti Russian ukrainians are not and wont be interested... it is a way of extracting the wheat from the chaff without having to take on all that rubbish with the wheat.
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    Post  Walther von Oldenburg on Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am

    Ukrainians who hate Russia obviously won't be flocking Russia to live there.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:43 am

    What I mean is that every Ukrainian suddenly decided they have been screwed by the west and the EU and US in particular and they all want to go back to the Russian fold, the Russian federation would be taking on a weak and broken country that needs investment and rehabilitation but no matter what they do there is no instant fix and there is always someone that will complain that they are taking advantage or not doing enough... look at how quickly former Warsaw Pact countries turned on Russia and were happy to become openly russophobic overnight... all the problems of communism were Russias fault and were inflicted mainly on their particular country... even though from the sound of it you would think Russia was a vampire drawing resources and material wealth from its client states, it actually seems the people in these countries had a better standard of living than some people in Russia (outside of the main centres in Russia of course).

    What sort of gaoler treats his prisoners better than he treats himself?

    And of course realistically 100% of all Ukrainians are never going to turn to Russia for support and the ones that stay western focussed will have ample chance to enjoy the Russian investment to improve their lives but also to sabotage it at every turn to undermine the effect for most Ukrainians in the hope they will go back to the west.

    Certain regions in the ukraine can probably enjoy good relations with Russia again, but some parts are lost forever I suspect... and that is OK... the US and EU suggested to the Ukrainians that the best way to stop the Russians from stealing their ship was to sink it and they have done that... will be interesting to see how the US and EU explain it was actually for the better, or that it is Russias fault anyway.
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    Post  flamming_python on Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:38 pm

    George1 wrote:

    Russian Duma to review call to recognize 1920 South Ossetia genocide — speaker







    The Parliament of South Ossetia stated the 1920 events "were not appropriately assessed, the masterminds and those behind the genocide of South Ossetians were not held accountable"

    MOSCOW, August 1. /TASS/. Chairman of the State Duma (Russian Parliament’s lower chamber) Vyacheslav Volodin has announced that as soon as the South Ossetia’s Parliament submits an appeal to the Duma to recognize the genocide of the South Ossetians in 1920 by Georgia, the document will be reviewed at the next Duma Council meeting.

    "The State Duma has taken careful note of the South Ossetian Parliament’s statement to recognize the Georgian genocide of South Ossetians in 1920. The next scheduled Duma Council meeting, which involves the Duma leadership, leaders of all political factions and committee chairs, will review this appeal," the speaker told reporters on Wednesday.

    The South Ossetian parliamentarians have sent the appeal to officially acknowledge Georgian nationalists’ genocide of South Ossetians in 1920 to the Russian leadership, the State Duma and the Federation Council (upper house), the Parliament’s website reads. The statement specifies that "the 1920 events were not appropriately assessed, the masterminds and those behind the genocide of South Ossetians were not held accountable."

    After South Ossetia declared its right for self-determination and ascension to the Soviet Russia, "the Georgian government sent their units to suppress South Ossetia" in June 1920, the statement points out. According to it, "the Georgian troops eliminated most of the residential communities in South Ossetia." "Several thousand people were killed, which was between 8 and 25% of the whole population, according to different assessments."

    In 1989-1992, Georgia "again attempted ethnic cleansings against the Ossetian people, but the Russian interference in 2008, which forced Georgia to [declare] peace, prevented the people of South Ossetia from being completely wiped out," the appeal says.

    https://tass.com/world/1071424

    Genocide claims, the new method of dividing peoples in the 21st century

    Not to say that genuine genocides shouldn't be investigated, but historical research has to be apolitical and sober. Bogus genocide claims only benefit the power of the elites that propogate them; they do nothing to actually help ordinary people to improve their living standards and so on.

    GarryB wrote:What I mean is that every Ukrainian suddenly decided they have been screwed by the west and the EU and US in particular and they all want to go back to the Russian fold, the Russian federation would be taking on a weak and broken country that needs investment and rehabilitation but no matter what they do there is no instant fix and there is always someone that will complain that they are taking advantage or not doing enough... look at how quickly former Warsaw Pact countries turned on Russia and were happy to become openly russophobic overnight... all the problems of communism were Russias fault and were inflicted mainly on their particular country... even though from the sound of it you would think Russia was a vampire drawing resources and material wealth from its client states, it actually seems the people in these countries had a better standard of living than some people in Russia (outside of the main centres in Russia of course).

    What sort of gaoler treats his prisoners better than he treats himself?

    And of course realistically 100% of all Ukrainians are never going to turn to Russia for support and the ones that stay western focussed will have ample chance to enjoy the Russian investment to improve their lives but also to sabotage it at every turn to undermine the effect for most Ukrainians in the hope they will go back to the west.

    Certain regions in the ukraine can probably enjoy good relations with Russia again, but some parts are lost forever I suspect... and that is OK... the US and EU suggested to the Ukrainians that the best way to stop the Russians from stealing their ship was to sink it and they have done that...

    Hey they can all go to the West for what I care, all the regions that provided manpower, supplies and weapons against the rebellious ones.

    After they're sucked dry by the EU and US maybe they'll change their minds, but Russia has its own people and territories to develop.

    will be interesting to see how the US and EU explain it was actually for the better, or that it is Russias fault anyway.

    They'll find a way as they always do, and Ukrainians eager for an explanation for their misfortunes, and to believe in a false dichtomony of democracy vs aggressors will believe it.
    Ultimately the only way to break this development is a revolutionary situation. If everything carries on as the same trainwreck, one false Messiah elected after another, with no improvement to real living standards to show for it - eventually this is what will happen. And then the Ukraine will be set back even more.

    I don't even know what to suggest. Eastern Ukrainians and those in general who are against being an agricultural and manpower colony for menial jobs in richer countries than their own in Europe have to set up a mass-movement. But for the moment they are completely passive and complicit.
    PapaDragon
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    Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation - Page 8 Empty Re: Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:26 pm


    When ultraliberal pamphlet delivers quality satisfaction. This shit is better than porn... lol1


    Saakashvili: How The West Sold Out Georgia

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/09082019-saakashvili-how-the-west-sold-out-georgia/



    I love how he still calls her 'Condi'

    ...He continued, “We were under threat of full annihilation. There was this moment when Condi Rice reached Lavrov on the third day of the war. She asked him what’s your goal in Georgia, the answer was – full annihilation...”


    GarryB
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    Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation - Page 8 Empty Re: Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:59 am

    After they're sucked dry by the EU and US maybe they'll change their minds, but Russia has its own people and territories to develop.

    One of the biggest problems for the Soviet Union is that they often ended up with basket case countries to trade with that were more of a drain on resources than an advantage.

    After the US and EU have had their way the US and EU will change their minds and they had better hope all the bridges they burned with Russia can be repaired... but of course why would Russia bother helping them when there is a risk that if they do get them back on the road to normal that the US and EU might make them another offer... we could say they would be stupid to go back, but then they were stupid this time... the overthrown Ukrainian leader was not pro-Russian by any means... he just picked the Russian offer because it was the best offer by far... the west is normally better at this... they make big offers and then fail to deliver normally because it is easier to make up reasons why the big offer can't work...

    I don't even know what to suggest. Eastern Ukrainians and those in general who are against being an agricultural and manpower colony for menial jobs in richer countries than their own in Europe have to set up a mass-movement. But for the moment they are completely passive and complicit.

    Indeed... the power of the people is what matters here... whether it is people of the Donbass or South Ossetia or Abkhazia... they need to make their decisions and then stick with them.

    When ultraliberal pamphlet delivers quality satisfaction. This shit is better than porn..

    It was everyone elses fault but his... perhaps the real problem was that he ran out of ties...
    Regular
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    Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation - Page 8 Empty Re: Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Regular on Fri Aug 09, 2019 10:39 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    When ultraliberal pamphlet delivers quality satisfaction. This shit is better than porn... lol1


    Saakashvili: How The West Sold Out Georgia

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/09082019-saakashvili-how-the-west-sold-out-georgia/



    I love how he still calls her 'Condi'

    ...He continued, “We were under threat of full annihilation. There was this moment when Condi Rice reached Lavrov on the third day of the war. She asked him what’s your goal in Georgia, the answer was – full annihilation...”



    Full annihilation.. Less than 500 people died on all sides...

    Georgia without Saakashvili has almost no military provocations, there are no fire exchanges as there was before. Basically he was destibilizing his own country.
    Odin of Ossetia
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    Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation - Page 8 Empty Re: Abkhazia - S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Odin of Ossetia on Tue Aug 27, 2019 6:41 pm

    Odin of Ossetia wrote:




    Ukrainians tried to stage anti-Russian provocations during the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia in 2008:


    http://asaland.proboards.com/thread/302/ukraine-participated-invasion-south-ossetia




    But Putin supposedly claims that "Russians and Ukrainians are same people."


    Will Russia survive Putin?









    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f-fOf9--XI



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