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    Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:20 pm

    Burrying the hatchet with neither the Abkhazians nor the Ossetians does present any special or very difficult hurdle in that respect if the doors for talks and rehabilitation were open. That is a fact. It has been done before and it has been proven very succesful. Despite what happened and it would work even better despite recent events. But they are kept closed, forcefuly. Nowdays these two regions present nothing but huge isolated ( to us ) Russian military bases with fences stretched along the DMZ in an effort to undermine any sort of rapprochement and convergence. Nobody should have illusions. People are not stupid. No matter how much you try to influence their thinking. They know what is going on, when they are played and what political role or significance they have.

    Well isn't that to be expected?

    If you rape someone do you expect them to suddenly want to become part of your family?

    You pretty much have two options... one is a path that will lead away from unification with Abkhazia and South Ossetia... that path leads to NATO and future confrontation against Russia. The other path would be to remain independent... if Russia wanted Tiblisi it could have taken it in 2008... it doesn't want to occupy Georgia.

    The problem is that the path to unification has been made much longer by the actions of saakash"villan" in 2008.

    So the two choices are a couple of decades with unification and good relations with Russia, or a couple of decades to NATO membership and bad relations with Russia and likely no chance of South Ossetia or Abkhazia returning to being parts of georgia.

    In fact NATO membership will likely lead to both regions voting ala Crimea to join the Russian Federation.

    Maybe because it's today, a different time. Far from 1991 when the wounds were still fresh and one couldn't bear "loosing" so much ? - wishful thinking. Does Russia bear to have "lost" so much, now ? as a matter of fact they don't. The general mentality is still anchored in the past. NATO was not the reason in the 90s and I can assure you, things haven't changed nowdays. Can anyone here disagree on that ? please prove me wrong. I'd be glad to be proven wrong on this. Really.

    I mean sure, Saakashvili happened ..... but was it any different before ? was it any different afterwards ? No and no.

    Are you trying to say reunification was never possible and therefore murdering the South Ossetians in 2008 meant nothing?

    Russia is hostile to Georgia because Georgia made it so by violating a peace treaty and murdering their paratroopers and men and lots of South Ossetians.

    In other words Georgian actions have created hostility. Georgia joining NATO will not be a solution, though obviously it is completely Georgias choice.

    The thing is that NATO is a solution looking for a problem.

    Georgia joining NATO wont save Georgia from Russian retaliation if Georgia tries to invade South Ossetia or Abkhazia, and you would have to be an idiot to think Russia wants to invade Georgia.

    The US wants bases close to Russia... that is why they want Georgia to join NATO... but all Georgia gets out of this is a very hostile neighbour.

    What do you think would be a reasonable solution for Russia if NATO wasn't involved anymore ? do you think they'd give up their bases in Abkhazia and "South Ossetia", pull out their troops and allow all 3 parties to sit togheter at a table and find peaceful solutions to deal with all question ? - I don't know, seems like wishful thinking. People tried approaching and talking to eachother increasingly the last couple years, before the fences were constructed. So practicaly every time there is energy put into such efforts, there is a frightened and regressive reaction from Russia.

    A good start would be Saakashvillians head on a stick.

    But this time around, there are not two parties actively provoking eachother. There is only ONE.

    So you want to join NATO AND be friends with Russia?

    You want US military bases on your territory but no Russian bases anywhere nearby?

    Sounds like you are not telling the whole story.

    If you did to the US what you did to Russia in 2008 there would have been regime change in Georgia.

    There won't ever be NATO bases in Georgia because NATO itself isn't that stupid.

    US bases might as well be NATO bases as NATO is the stormtrooper of US ambitions.

    Georgia literaly has no prospect of joining NATO and will forever simply remain an allied nation if anything, even if we get the MAP in 2016, which is unlikely to happen anyway.

    Even just trying to join is pushing Russia away and telling them you are an enemy.

    As Flaming python mentions... Russia doesn't need more land and is not interested in expanding its empire to include SO or Abkhazia or Georgia... if they wanted that they could have.... Saakashvillian gave them the perfect opportunity if that was their goal.

    Look at all the things in the Russian military alone that were made in the Ukraine... that wasn't because the Ukrainian product was better... the Russians could easily have spent a bit of money and produced everything domestically in new modern factories. They kept buying Ukrainian bits and pieces to help the Ukrainian economy.

    It was not Russia that cut off ties with the Ukraine it is the Ukraine and the west using economic and political sanctions against Russia.

    These are the sort of people you want to hitch your horse to?

    It is your choice but I have spelled out where that path goes.... Russia might not want South Ossetia or Abkhazia, but if the alternative is to let NATO build bases there they would be fools to step back and do nothing.

    Georgia trying to join NATO makes Russia want to do the opposite of what Georgia wants them to do and will increase hostility of Russia towards Georgia.

    Now ask yourself... does Georgia really want SO and AbK back or does it just like to wind up the bear...

    Either way Georgia has to do a bit of grovelling for the death and destruction it caused... offering compensation to the victims would be a good start and a nice gesture... but really you need to talk to the governments of the two regions to find out what they want instead of making it all about Russia.


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    TheGeorgian

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  TheGeorgian on Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:49 pm

    Burrying the hatchet with neither the Abkhazians nor the Ossetians does present any special or very difficult hurdle in that respect if the doors for talks and rehabilitation were open. That is a fact. It has been done before and it has been proven very succesful. Despite what happened and it would work even better despite recent events. But they are kept closed, forcefuly. Nowdays these two regions present nothing but huge isolated ( to us ) Russian military bases with fences stretched along the DMZ in an effort to undermine any sort of rapprochement and convergence. Nobody should have illusions. People are not stupid. No matter how much you try to influence their thinking. They know what is going on, when they are played and what political role or significance they have.

    If you rape someone do you expect them to suddenly want to become part of your family?

    Follow the context please. That aside, there was no "rape" nor is that - for a millenias long livetogheter - a "sudden" event. Calling a little and short proxy war which sadly happened to have a tolerable civilian death toll on both sides considering the circumstances and potential of full scale conflict, is not only inapropriate but almost an insult. Not only because of the specific events and losses on both sides but especialy considering the last wars, which had entire populations massacred by the thousands and almost a quarter million displaced. On the Georgian side atrocities were at least commited by armed formations made of criminals who didn't care if their victims were Abkhaz, Georgians, Russians or Greek and those were all outlawed and disbanded, while their leaders got hunted down and prosecuted. Almost all of them escaped to Russia btw. On the other side the Abkhaz are still today celebrating their mass murderers as war heroes. You people are very quick to ignore such things and go blindly one sided, than be like surprised when there is little agreement.

    In fact NATO membership will likely lead to both regions voting ala Crimea to join the Russian Federation.

    The more Russia tries to forcefully achieve that, the more such a possibility is completly ruled out. Entirely different cases / worlds. Can't draw analogues to Crimea.


    Russia is hostile to Georgia because Georgia made it so by violating a peace treaty and murdering their paratroopers and men and lots of South Ossetians.

    Russia has been politicaly and physicaly hostile to Georgia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. What happened in 2008 was Saakashvili's stupidity to give Russia a valid reason for military intervention. "Murdering" does not apply to two opposing forces combating eachother. I still haven't seen any proof that the Russian garrison in Tskhinvali acted completly out of self defence and the Georgians simply thought it was a good idea to open fire on them and destroy the base. I personaly am convinved as soon as hostilities started between Georgian and Ossetian troops, the Russian MC provided fire support for the Ossetians, thus provoking attention from the Georgians. I've heard the official briefing which concluded that Georgian troops acted out of self defence coming under fire from the barracks. I have also heard the Russian version of that story. There are video tapes, none of them show how it all started. I naturaly also don't know what went down and I am not supporting the Georgian version because I am Georgian and thus obliged to believe only the Georgian version, but for me it makes more sense, be it tactical or just because of common sense. For the soldiers who took part in that conflict it is just a tragedy anyway.

    Georgia joining NATO wont save Georgia from Russian retaliation if Georgia tries to invade South Ossetia or Abkhazia, and you would have to be an idiot to think Russia wants to invade Georgia.

    The idea of joining NATO is not to be able to recapture both regions .... but to have some protection against Russia.

    Russia is physicaly invading Georgia as we speak by constantly expanding the imaginary "border" it is drawing through our country almost splitting it ahalf.

    Saakashvili not being the president of Georgia anymore / or nationals not leading Georgia anymore, is the sole reason why things aren't escalating right now. Other nations would have allready resorted to defensive measures. The current leadership simply doesn't deploy troops because it would mean recognizing any borders. That's why nothing is happening.

    The US wants bases close to Russia... that is why they want Georgia to join NATO... but all Georgia gets out of this is a very hostile neighbour.

    Again, nothing would / could have stopped the US from doing that and also put Georgia into NATO if they wanted to.

    They allready got Turkey which is very close to Russia. Closer than any other NATO nation. That is allready more than enough for the USA and in particular NATO Europe.

    So you want to join NATO AND be friends with Russia?

    You want US military bases on your territory but no Russian bases anywhere nearby?

    Sounds like you are not telling the whole story.

    Funny you say that. The whole story is that we had Russian bases on our territory for decades and they were still active until just "recently" ( the last base in Georgia proper got closed in 2007 ) and now there are 2 expanded Russian army bases on our two contested regions. Do you see a single NATO base in Georgia, anywhere ? - nope. That's pretty much the whole story. Correct me if I am wrong.

    US bases might as well be NATO bases as NATO is the stormtrooper of US ambitions.

    US bases = NATO bases

    but how do you see US bases in Georgia ? that is even far less likely to ever happen.

    Even just trying to join is pushing Russia away and telling them you are an enemy.

    We are running in circles here. You know the reasons for the entire situation.


    If you did to the US what you did to Russia in 2008 there would have been regime change in Georgia.

    As Flaming python mentions... Russia doesn't need more land and is not interested in expanding its empire to include SO or Abkhazia or Georgia... if they wanted that they could have.... Saakashvillian gave them the perfect opportunity if that was their goal.

    Saakashvili gave Putin the perfect opportunity for several political / military agendas. He pretty much served it to him on a silver plate. Georgia's total annexion was an option in 2008 which was considered but simply not agreed on because it would have been a step too far. Almost all of Georgia's major cities got captured and most military bases destroyed. Only pressure from the internaional community prevented more damage and deeper incursion. Parts that were under Georgian control since the 90s got completly taken and are now sealed away by fence installations. So that is debunked by default. Other than that, sure if Moscow wanted they could have taken Tbilisi as well and changed the regime. But they didn't dare to go that far as much as Putin wanted to hang Saakashvili by the balls. Especialy not with all the international shitstorm. You can take parts of a nation, but not simply take an entire country. Not these days anymore.

    These are the sort of people you want to hitch your horse to?

    No. The truth told, I'd rather have a friendly neighbourhood around me and good relations with Russia than loosing my identity completly in that mess that is EU. If EU offered some fairness, balance and prospect even Russia would have joined in. But Russia on the other hand does also not offer any prospect in it's current condition. We need something to elevate us from 3rd world status to worth living. Right now, Russia itself has more than enough problems to fully achieve that.

    Either way Georgia has to do a bit of grovelling for the death and destruction it caused... offering compensation to the victims would be a good start and a nice gesture... but really you need to talk to the governments of the two regions to find out what they want instead of making it all about Russia.

    I can only repeat what I've allready said earlier. Something like that wouldn't be a problem. At all. But it simply is all about Russia. If Russia doesn't stop dictating the terms and what those people have to say in accordance of the general policy against us, peaceful talks and solutions are more than just doable. It's all in Russia's hands.
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:48 am

    Abkhazia remembering fellow-countrymen missing since war with Georgia

    The plight of more than 150 fighters of Abkhazian armed units and peaceful civilians is still unknown even more than twenty years

    SUKHUM, August 30. /TASS/. People in Abkhazia are remembering their fellow-countrymen who went missing during the Georgian-Abkhazian war of 1992-1993.

    Members of the public movement called Abkhazian Mothers for Peace and Social Justice, relatives of the missing, veterans, and public activists came to the Memorial to the Fallen Fighters in Sukhum’s Park of Glory on Sunday to lay flowers.

    At 20:00 hours local time, candles were lit on the embankment opposite the Sukhum Drama Theater where a fountain in memory of the missing was installed four years ago.

    Abkhazia has an immediate relationship to the International Day of the Disappeared, which is marked on August 30. The plight of more than 150 fighters of Abkhazian armed units and peaceful civilians is still unknown even more than twenty years after the end of hostilities.

    Until 2013, nothing was known about practically all the persons who disappeared during the war. Their family members and friends would come to the Park of Glory and lay flowers at the tombs of unknown soldiers where 43 unidentified bodies had been buried.

    "Thanks to support from the International Committee of the Red Cross, the fate of 36 fighters is known today," a spokesperson for the Abkhazian government’s commission for the missing told TASS. "They turned out to be among the 43 individuals, whose remains were exhumed in the Park of Glory in June 2013."

    "The identities of seven individuals were established in December 2013, fourteen others in February, June and December 2014 and fifteen more, in May 2015," he said. "Most of them died in the course of the March and July, 1993, operations to free Sukhum from the troops, which reported to the Georgian State Council.

    The identification became possible thanks to the special procedures held under the auspices of the International Red Cross in a laboratory in Zagreb.

    The problem of a search for the missing is one of the items discussed at the Geneva consultations on security and stability in South Caucasus that involve Georgia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the UN.

    In 2013, Georgia and Abkhazia launched a Coordination Mechanism to Find Possible Burial Places of the Missing. These efforts draw on support from the Red Cross.


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    Godric

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Godric on Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:24 am

    Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC

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    Werewolf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:17 pm

    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    Rodinazombie

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Rodinazombie on Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:28 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    The USA is acting like a spoilt, petulant little child. It doesnt know what to do so its wailing its arms around, flinging its toys everywhere not realising it just shit itself and is sitting in its own excrement.

    These tantrums will come to nothing, i wouldnt even worry about it. Even europe is starting to distance itself from american nonsense.
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    Godric

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Godric on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:23 pm

    Rodinazombie wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    Godric wrote:Pathetic stuff if true from America

    https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318173-georgia-russia-ossetia-icc-crimes/

    West tries to make a Serbia out of Russia

    Putin calls the West’s bluff on fighting ISIS in Syria. Western elite figures are most unhappy. The Empire badly needs to strike a blow at Russia – and right on cue, the issue of ‘war crimes’ in Georgia miraculously comes to the fore!


    This Thursday it was announced that the International Criminal Court was planning to investigate possible crimes committed during the conflict between Georgia and Russia in 2008.

    Reuters reports: ‘the court said that Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda had concluded there was a “reasonable basis to believe” crimes had been committed during the short war over the Russian-backed breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.”


    “A favorable decision by the judges would pit non-ICC member Russia versus the European-backed global war crimes court at a time of high East-West tensions over the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria,” says Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.

    Now, it could be that the timing of this is a total coincidence. That it just so happened that over seven years after the events in question, the ICC decided to make a statement on Georgia, in the same week that the Western elites were fuming over Russia out-maneuvering them in Syria and leaving their ‘regime change’ plans for Damascus in tatters.


    ETC ETC


    Pha, what war crimes? In 5 days of war? How much war crimes could russia committ in 5 days what US did to dozen countries in decades?

    Even if russia would use one nuke on each day against civilian cities it would still have less atrocities against civilians than US did with conventional "unintentional" warfare in Afghanistan or Iraq.

    The USA is acting like a spoilt, petulant little child. It doesnt know what to do so its wailing its arms around, flinging its toys everywhere not realising it just shit itself and is sitting in its own excrement.

    These tantrums will come to nothing, i wouldnt even worry about it. Even europe is starting to distance itself from american nonsense.

    their severe butthurt is making them look for every and any reason to throw mud at ?Russia as they have been found with their pants down again ... like when the polite green men took Crimea peacefully will leaving America and Nato in the dark
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    Werewolf

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Werewolf on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:56 pm

    I think the problem with the US and their attempt and struggle for one NWO is that they played and planned their road based on submissive countries that all at some point by now should eat what US shits without  a single word, but now they are struggling to adjust to the countermeasures against their foreign policy what the BRICS are doing to their economy, by simply unleashing their submissive slave status in economics and are taking slowly over. They act like a beheaded chicken and decide their short term tactics based on which spot (tactic) the beheaded chicken stops moving to react to BRICS and Russias actions.
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    kvs

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:27 pm

    If the ICC does not indict the Georgian government of Suckasshvilli then it will prove itself a kangaroo court joke.

    Recall that there was a surprise attack on the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvalli, at midnight August 8, 2008 (8/8/Cool
    by Suckasshvilli's forces with artillery and MLRS barrages. During the course of this ethnic cleansing campaign that
    had a short life thanks to Russian intervention over 2000 Ossetians died.

    What are these "war crimes" by Russia that the ICC does not explicitly outline? The ICC better follow the "collateral damage"
    precedent of the USA.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:09 pm

    It will be clear what sort of verdict they will come to when they describe the events leading up to the invasion...

    Was it georgian forces heroically shelling the South Ossetian capital because the Russians were invading.... ????

    Or if it was a Russian intervention to stop georgian shelling of the South Ossetian capital.... I suspect they will come out with the former...


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    Cyberspec

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  Cyberspec on Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:27 am

    Russia and Abkhazia are to complete the formation of the combined army group by the end of 2018

    Abkhazia parliament ratifies agreement with Russia on combined army group
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/845265
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:49 am

    Referendum on South Ossetia joining Russia russia should be held in special way — leader

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/world/857966


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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:21 am

    Crum version 2 Cool can't wait Cool Cool
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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:06 am

    Georgia's Refusal to Sign Peace Deal Reveals Revanchist Policy - Abkhaz FM

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160317/1036437385/georgia-abkhazia-ossetia-peace-deal.html#ixzz4395EWlRl


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    George1

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    Re: Abkhazia and S.Ossetia vs Georgia Situation

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:04 pm

    South Ossetia plans to revive republic’s historical name of Alania

    More:
    http://tass.com/world/910410


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