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Burrying the hatchet with neither the Abkhazians nor the Ossetians does present any special or very difficult hurdle in that respect if the doors for talks and rehabilitation were open. That is a fact. It has been done before and it has been proven very succesful. Despite what happened and it would work even better despite recent events. But they are kept closed, forcefuly. Nowdays these two regions present nothing but huge isolated ( to us ) Russian military bases with fences stretched along the DMZ in an effort to undermine any sort of rapprochement and convergence. Nobody should have illusions. People are not stupid. No matter how much you try to influence their thinking. They know what is going on, when they are played and what political role or significance they have.
Follow the context please. That aside, there was no "rape" nor is that - for a millenias long livetogheter - a "sudden" event. Calling a little and short proxy war which sadly happened to have a tolerable civilian death toll on both sides considering the circumstances and potential of full scale conflict, is not only inapropriate but almost an insult. Not only because of the specific events and losses on both sides but especialy considering the last wars, which had entire populations massacred by the thousands and almost a quarter million displaced. On the Georgian side atrocities were at least commited by armed formations made of criminals who didn't care if their victims were Abkhaz, Georgians, Russians or Greek and those were all outlawed and disbanded, while their leaders got hunted down and prosecuted. Almost all of them escaped to Russia btw. On the other side the Abkhaz are still today celebrating their mass murderers as war heroes. You people are very quick to ignore such things and go blindly one sided, than be like surprised when there is little agreement.
The more Russia tries to forcefully achieve that, the more such a possibility is completly ruled out. Entirely different cases / worlds. Can't draw analogues to Crimea.
Russia has been politicaly and physicaly hostile to Georgia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. What happened in 2008 was Saakashvili's stupidity to give Russia a valid reason for military intervention. "Murdering" does not apply to two opposing forces combating eachother. I still haven't seen any proof that the Russian garrison in Tskhinvali acted completly out of self defence and the Georgians simply thought it was a good idea to open fire on them and destroy the base. I personaly am convinved as soon as hostilities started between Georgian and Ossetian troops, the Russian MC provided fire support for the Ossetians, thus provoking attention from the Georgians. I've heard the official briefing which concluded that Georgian troops acted out of self defence coming under fire from the barracks. I have also heard the Russian version of that story. There are video tapes, none of them show how it all started. I naturaly also don't know what went down and I am not supporting the Georgian version because I am Georgian and thus obliged to believe only the Georgian version, but for me it makes more sense, be it tactical or just because of common sense. For the soldiers who took part in that conflict it is just a tragedy anyway.
The idea of joining NATO is not to be able to recapture both regions .... but to have some protection against Russia.
Russia is physicaly invading Georgia as we speak by constantly expanding the imaginary "border" it is drawing through our country almost splitting it ahalf.
Saakashvili not being the president of Georgia anymore / or nationals not leading Georgia anymore, is the sole reason why things aren't escalating right now. Other nations would have allready resorted to defensive measures. The current leadership simply doesn't deploy troops because it would mean recognizing any borders. That's why nothing is happening.
Again, nothing would / could have stopped the US from doing that and also put Georgia into NATO if they wanted to.
They allready got Turkey which is very close to Russia. Closer than any other NATO nation. That is allready more than enough for the USA and in particular NATO Europe.
Funny you say that. The whole story is that we had Russian bases on our territory for decades and they were still active until just "recently" ( the last base in Georgia proper got closed in 2007 ) and now there are 2 expanded Russian army bases on our two contested regions. Do you see a single NATO base in Georgia, anywhere ? - nope. That's pretty much the whole story. Correct me if I am wrong.
US bases = NATO bases
but how do you see US bases in Georgia ? that is even far less likely to ever happen.
We are running in circles here. You know the reasons for the entire situation.
Saakashvili gave Putin the perfect opportunity for several political / military agendas. He pretty much served it to him on a silver plate. Georgia's total annexion was an option in 2008 which was considered but simply not agreed on because it would have been a step too far. Almost all of Georgia's major cities got captured and most military bases destroyed. Only pressure from the internaional community prevented more damage and deeper incursion. Parts that were under Georgian control since the 90s got completly taken and are now sealed away by fence installations. So that is debunked by default. Other than that, sure if Moscow wanted they could have taken Tbilisi as well and changed the regime. But they didn't dare to go that far as much as Putin wanted to hang Saakashvili by the balls. Especialy not with all the international shitstorm. You can take parts of a nation, but not simply take an entire country. Not these days anymore.
No. The truth told, I'd rather have a friendly neighbourhood around me and good relations with Russia than loosing my identity completly in that mess that is EU. If EU offered some fairness, balance and prospect even Russia would have joined in. But Russia on the other hand does also not offer any prospect in it's current condition. We need something to elevate us from 3rd world status to worth living. Right now, Russia itself has more than enough problems to fully achieve that.
I can only repeat what I've allready said earlier. Something like that wouldn't be a problem. At all. But it simply is all about Russia. If Russia doesn't stop dictating the terms and what those people have to say in accordance of the general policy against us, peaceful talks and solutions are more than just doable. It's all in Russia's hands.
If you rape someone do you expect them to suddenly want to become part of your family?
Follow the context please. That aside, there was no "rape" nor is that - for a millenias long livetogheter - a "sudden" event. Calling a little and short proxy war which sadly happened to have a tolerable civilian death toll on both sides considering the circumstances and potential of full scale conflict, is not only inapropriate but almost an insult. Not only because of the specific events and losses on both sides but especialy considering the last wars, which had entire populations massacred by the thousands and almost a quarter million displaced. On the Georgian side atrocities were at least commited by armed formations made of criminals who didn't care if their victims were Abkhaz, Georgians, Russians or Greek and those were all outlawed and disbanded, while their leaders got hunted down and prosecuted. Almost all of them escaped to Russia btw. On the other side the Abkhaz are still today celebrating their mass murderers as war heroes. You people are very quick to ignore such things and go blindly one sided, than be like surprised when there is little agreement.
In fact NATO membership will likely lead to both regions voting ala Crimea to join the Russian Federation.
The more Russia tries to forcefully achieve that, the more such a possibility is completly ruled out. Entirely different cases / worlds. Can't draw analogues to Crimea.
Russia is hostile to Georgia because Georgia made it so by violating a peace treaty and murdering their paratroopers and men and lots of South Ossetians.
Russia has been politicaly and physicaly hostile to Georgia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. What happened in 2008 was Saakashvili's stupidity to give Russia a valid reason for military intervention. "Murdering" does not apply to two opposing forces combating eachother. I still haven't seen any proof that the Russian garrison in Tskhinvali acted completly out of self defence and the Georgians simply thought it was a good idea to open fire on them and destroy the base. I personaly am convinved as soon as hostilities started between Georgian and Ossetian troops, the Russian MC provided fire support for the Ossetians, thus provoking attention from the Georgians. I've heard the official briefing which concluded that Georgian troops acted out of self defence coming under fire from the barracks. I have also heard the Russian version of that story. There are video tapes, none of them show how it all started. I naturaly also don't know what went down and I am not supporting the Georgian version because I am Georgian and thus obliged to believe only the Georgian version, but for me it makes more sense, be it tactical or just because of common sense. For the soldiers who took part in that conflict it is just a tragedy anyway.
Georgia joining NATO wont save Georgia from Russian retaliation if Georgia tries to invade South Ossetia or Abkhazia, and you would have to be an idiot to think Russia wants to invade Georgia.
The idea of joining NATO is not to be able to recapture both regions .... but to have some protection against Russia.
Russia is physicaly invading Georgia as we speak by constantly expanding the imaginary "border" it is drawing through our country almost splitting it ahalf.
Saakashvili not being the president of Georgia anymore / or nationals not leading Georgia anymore, is the sole reason why things aren't escalating right now. Other nations would have allready resorted to defensive measures. The current leadership simply doesn't deploy troops because it would mean recognizing any borders. That's why nothing is happening.
The US wants bases close to Russia... that is why they want Georgia to join NATO... but all Georgia gets out of this is a very hostile neighbour.
Again, nothing would / could have stopped the US from doing that and also put Georgia into NATO if they wanted to.
They allready got Turkey which is very close to Russia. Closer than any other NATO nation. That is allready more than enough for the USA and in particular NATO Europe.
So you want to join NATO AND be friends with Russia?
You want US military bases on your territory but no Russian bases anywhere nearby?
Sounds like you are not telling the whole story.
Funny you say that. The whole story is that we had Russian bases on our territory for decades and they were still active until just "recently" ( the last base in Georgia proper got closed in 2007 ) and now there are 2 expanded Russian army bases on our two contested regions. Do you see a single NATO base in Georgia, anywhere ? - nope. That's pretty much the whole story. Correct me if I am wrong.
US bases might as well be NATO bases as NATO is the stormtrooper of US ambitions.
US bases = NATO bases
but how do you see US bases in Georgia ? that is even far less likely to ever happen.
Even just trying to join is pushing Russia away and telling them you are an enemy.
We are running in circles here. You know the reasons for the entire situation.
If you did to the US what you did to Russia in 2008 there would have been regime change in Georgia.
As Flaming python mentions... Russia doesn't need more land and is not interested in expanding its empire to include SO or Abkhazia or Georgia... if they wanted that they could have.... Saakashvillian gave them the perfect opportunity if that was their goal.
Saakashvili gave Putin the perfect opportunity for several political / military agendas. He pretty much served it to him on a silver plate. Georgia's total annexion was an option in 2008 which was considered but simply not agreed on because it would have been a step too far. Almost all of Georgia's major cities got captured and most military bases destroyed. Only pressure from the internaional community prevented more damage and deeper incursion. Parts that were under Georgian control since the 90s got completly taken and are now sealed away by fence installations. So that is debunked by default. Other than that, sure if Moscow wanted they could have taken Tbilisi as well and changed the regime. But they didn't dare to go that far as much as Putin wanted to hang Saakashvili by the balls. Especialy not with all the international shitstorm. You can take parts of a nation, but not simply take an entire country. Not these days anymore.
These are the sort of people you want to hitch your horse to?
No. The truth told, I'd rather have a friendly neighbourhood around me and good relations with Russia than loosing my identity completly in that mess that is EU. If EU offered some fairness, balance and prospect even Russia would have joined in. But Russia on the other hand does also not offer any prospect in it's current condition. We need something to elevate us from 3rd world status to worth living. Right now, Russia itself has more than enough problems to fully achieve that.
Either way Georgia has to do a bit of grovelling for the death and destruction it caused... offering compensation to the victims would be a good start and a nice gesture... but really you need to talk to the governments of the two regions to find out what they want instead of making it all about Russia.
I can only repeat what I've allready said earlier. Something like that wouldn't be a problem. At all. But it simply is all about Russia. If Russia doesn't stop dictating the terms and what those people have to say in accordance of the general policy against us, peaceful talks and solutions are more than just doable. It's all in Russia's hands.
should be held in special way — leader
Walther von Oldenburg
