5th gen light mulltirole fighter/Mikoyan LMFS

TR1 wrote:Correction, MiG would love to have something in the pipeline as far as a new jet is concerned.

Where there is a will, there is a way   

According to Paralay, originally this was supposed to be Mig's submitted design for the PAK-FA program, but I hope it's adopted (and tweeked) for the light (or low) fighter mix:

I'm not sure if it was Paralay or Flateric who said it, but apparently the "Mikoyan PAK-FA" in those images is purely a student project, it had nothing to do with the OKB. It is absolutely hideous imo anyway.

Reading through lines, it appears Mikoyan's real PAK-FA contender was a derivative of MFI, also canard but with side intakes, and presumably stealthified, features of which MIGHT have found their way in the Chengdu J-20, given the rumours of possible Mikoyan advice/involvement at one point or another in this project.

mack8 wrote:

According to Paralay, originally this was supposed to be Mig's submitted design for the PAK-FA program, but I hope it's adopted (and tweeked) for the light (or low) fighter mix:

I'm not sure if it was Paralay or Flateric who said it, but apparently the "Mikoyan PAK-FA" in those images is purely a student project, it had nothing to do with the OKB. It is absolutely hideous imo anyway.

Reading through lines, it appears Mikoyan's real PAK-FA contender was a derivative of MFI, also canard but with side intakes, and presumably stealthified, features of which MIGHT have found their way in the Chengdu J-20, given the rumours of possible Mikoyan advice/involvement at one point or another in this project.

Actually MFI and PAK-FA are two completely different programs.

Actually MFI and PAK-FA are two completely different programs.

They were, but he didn't say they weren't. He said that MiG submitted to the PAK FA competition an aircraft design related to the design they submitted for the MFI competition.

Russia working on lightweight successor to MiG-35

The Russian aircraft-manufacturing corporation MiG is considering the possibility of building a fifth-generation fighter. The new aircraft may be based on the MiG-35, and will be further enhanced by advanced avionics and weapons. According to MiG managing director Sergei Korotkov, the corporation's experts are already working on a concept for the new fighter. "I know that this is one of the ideas, one of the directions that the design bureau is working on. I very much hope that soon we shall develop this area of work more seriously," he said. Russian Air Force to induct a hundred MiG-35 fighters after 2016 Russian Air Force to induct a hundred MiG-35 fighters after 2016 Korotkov did not specify how much progress the corporation has made in its research and development, but said he considered the creation of a new combat aircraft "very likely,” saying that "the most important thing is to have an order for it." Korotkov rejected the suggestion that this project may provoke a conflict between MiG and Sukhoi, which is working on its own version of a fifth-generation plane, the PAK FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation). "These are two completely different aircraft, which will be performing different tasks," he said. The maximum take-off weight of the MiG-35 is 5 tons less than that of the PAK FA, so, Korotkov believes, it will be more effective in performing most of the proposed tasks. "We believe that the MiG-35 is a platform that may in future become the basis for a fifth-generation fighter," he said. The MiG corporation is now waiting for a Russian Defense Ministry contract for the supply of MiG-35s. All the relevant documents have been submitted to the ministry, Korotkov said, adding that he hoped the contract – he did not specify for how many aircraft - will be signed "before the end of this year.” The MiG-35 may also be sold abroad: There have been media reports suggesting that Egypt is thinking of buying 24 MiG-35s fitted with Klimov RD-33MK engines. However, Korotkov refused to comment on these rumors. In April, the MiG corporation won a contract from the Russian Defense Ministry for the supply of 16 additional MiG-29SMT fighters for the needs of the Russian Air Force.

Source: Russia Beyond the Headlines - http://rbth.co.uk/news/2014/06/10/russia_working_on_lightweight_successor_to_mig-35_37341.html)

flateric posted on secretproject , from the cover of recent UAC report possibly LMFS

Austin wrote:flateric posted on secretproject , from the cover of recent UAC report possibly LMFS

looks interesting.

though it seems somewhat it's an S-32 (concept of Su-47 berkut) But with diamond wings.

Stealthflanker wrote:

Austin wrote:flateric posted on secretproject , from the cover of recent UAC report possibly LMFS

looks interesting.

though it seems somewhat it's an S-32 (concept of Su-47 berkut) But with diamond wings.

it seems is a "small" PAK-FA like MiG-29 looks like a "small" Su-27

http://rbth.com/news/2014/06/10/russia_working_on_lightweight_successor_to_mig-35_37341.html

Flyingdutchman wrote:http://rbth.com/news/2014/06/10/russia_working_on_lightweight_successor_to_mig-35_37341.html

I'm not complaining but hasn't this been known for a while now? Unless this is different from the LMFS project.....

Thanks for clearing that up!

Sorry!

Nice


general director Sergei Korotkov

Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) "MiG" is working on lightweight fighter of the fifth generation, but does not have the relevant order.

RAC "MiG" is working on a lightweight fighter of the fifth generation

Viktor wrote:Nice  


general director Sergei Korotkov

Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) "MiG" is working on lightweight fighter of the fifth generation, but does not have the relevant order.

RAC "MiG" is working on a lightweight fighter of the fifth generation

Mig 50. I like idea

RD33 new 9,500 kgf. it ok

Viktor wrote:Nice  


general director Sergei Korotkov

Russian Aircraft Corporation (RSK) "MiG" is working on lightweight fighter of the fifth generation, but does not have the relevant order.

RAC "MiG" is working on a lightweight fighter of the fifth generation

I haven't even heard of the relevant orders for MIG-35 and now this, is MIG getting desperate?

Anyway, i predict this will go the way of the MIG-Skate.

I doubt LMFS will see the light of the day when there are so many new Airforce program with high priority name a few PAK-DA , Mig-41 , UCAV

Personally I think a hybrid small cheap fighter would be a great idea.

A small light low cost aircraft that can either carry a modest payload internally in a stealthy mode or carry large amounts of ordinance externally in a non stealthy bomb truck type role.

Don't try to give it super long range sensors or super long range fire power... just make it small, light stealthy enough, and cheap to build and operate and maintain.

And make about 400.


The key will be low cost to buy and to use... for general patrol duties you don't need a PAK FA and having a small stealthy plane to operate with Su-35s and MiG-35s and MiG-41s will be useful...

GarryB wrote:Personally I think a hybrid small cheap fighter would be a great idea.

A small light low cost aircraft that can either carry a modest payload internally in a stealthy mode or carry large amounts of ordinance externally in a non stealthy bomb truck type role.

Don't try to give it super long range sensors or super long range fire power... just make it small, light stealthy enough, and cheap to build and operate and maintain.

And make about 400.


The key will be low cost to buy and to use... for general patrol duties you don't need a PAK FA and having a small stealthy plane to operate with Su-35s and MiG-35s and MiG-41s will be useful...

I agree. It´s not all about maximum quality in the sense of maximum preformance. The Pak fa will meet those demands. It´s also a numbers game. Just look at the positioning of the russian air bases, the ojects they need to defend, the role of the aircraft and the strategy. They need a new low cost workhorse, in the mig-29 role, suited up to meet tomorrows standards of threats. With todays budget it´s impossible to build a 500+ feet pak fa´s. But a 250+fleet pak fa´s and a 250+ 5-gen light fighter in the middle term (10/15 years) is feesible i guess.

Russia’s MiG to Develop Fifth-Generation Jet Fighter

http://sputniknews.com/military/20150620/1023632156.html

The MiG-35 4++ generation advanced multirole fighter could be used as a platform for building the new fifth-generation aircraft.

MiG aircraft-making company will develop a fifth-generation light jet fighter, company CEO Sergei Korotkov said during the 2015 Le Bourget Airshow.

"Such a plane has not been ordered yet. But we continue to work on it. We know that there is a broad worldwide market for this type of aircraft," Korotkov said.

He also pointed out that currently many countries across the globe use the MiG-29 aircraft, and they need a plane to replace it.

The MiG-35 4++ generation advanced multirole fighter could be used as a platform for building the fifth-generation aircraft. Mass production of the MiG-35 has repeatedly been delayed, including due to the absence of buyers.

However, in April Russian Deputy Defense Minister Yuri Borisov said the Russian arms procurement program presumes delivering 30 MiG-35 aircraft to the Air Force by 2020.

Another fifth-generation jet fighter for the Russian Air Force – T-50 (PAK FA) – is already in development. It is planned to be an attack aircraft. Currently, three prototypes are undergoing flight tests. Three more planes will be delivered for testing by the end of the year. The first T-50 aircraft are planned to be delivered to the Air Force from between the end of 2016 and the beginning of 2017.

Russia needs new combat aircraft, the more the better. The new situation dictates the dynamics of development of brand new Russian gear. A decision to modernize all T-90A to T-90M standard is a sign ain that direction. Mikoyan must come with something brand new. Sukhoi has already many delivery projects. I don't think a new MiG would be inferior comparing with T-50 and if we also get a MiG-41 than the picture will be complete.

It is possible that this new MiG will top anything else out there in the world, even T-50 and F-22A. By logic, it will be a much younger project than all others. New solutions would be built in from the very start, like GaN AESA, X-core 16 nm processors and other things.

I think the main aim is to bring Mikoyan to Sukhoi revenue level.

Let us face it, as cost of goods are going up and Russia has been forced to tighten its belt regarding funding on nearly anything, a 5th gen lightweight fighter is going to become quite important.  Most wars are either a fight of attrition or would end in hours if gone nuclear.  So having a jet that is cheap to field while being able to hold its own quite well, is important.

But why should it be not only expensive but takes long to come out?  Already KRET has the technologies for a fifth gen like fighter.  They could effectively use what they learned from MiG-35 so far, improve its subsystems, and come up with a newer airframe.  To reduce costs, they could use shaping a lot more effectively than relying on RAM material for stealth as RAM is quite expensive, while shaping wouldn't be (they could use computers to help come up with the design.  Of course, the set basis for it could be MiG-29 shape.

But a jet that would cost roughly $30 - $50M per unit would be ideal, as it would be significantly cheaper than PAK FA, while being reasonable in terms of price, could still be capable.  Theoretically, Su-34's are listed as cheaper than Su-35's and are very capable aircrafts, hence the large purchase for them (well, and their needs).

GJ Flanker wrote:Russia needs new combat aircraft, the more the better. The new situation dictates the dynamics of development of brand new Russian gear. A decision to modernize all T-90A to T-90M standard is a sign ain that direction. Mikoyan must come with something brand new. Sukhoi has already many delivery projects. I don't think a new MiG would be inferior comparing with T-50 and if we also get a MiG-41 than the picture will be complete.

It is possible that this new MiG will top anything else out there in the world, even T-50 and F-22A. By logic, it will be a much younger project than all others. New solutions would be built in from the very start, like GaN AESA, X-core 16 nm processors and other things.  

I think the main aim is to bring Mikoyan to Sukhoi revenue level.

Problem with low nanometer processors are that their shieldings for against radiation. Most processors used for military purposes are usually around 180 - 90nm processing with specialized shieldings. Very expensive. Like F-22's and Su-30MKI's use the Intel i960x processor which is quite old in terms of regular computer use, but are quite ideal for radar technology. The ones ideal for Russia will be the Elbrus 2C+ or 2SM which are localized production and 90nm with 6 physical cores of two of them being the Elbrus E2K core and 4 being of Elvees DSP cores.

Also, I know very little currently about the modules for radar technology coming out from Russia but my understanding is that NPP Istok is the one who produces the current T/R Modules for both KRET and Tikhomirov NPP. I read that back in 2009 (?) they were working on GaN modules but heard nothing more. They are the makers of the current T/R modules of GaAS in Russia and very odd reports here and there of its performances. Some claim they operate in the 10W field, and others say 5W field with MiG-35's having real trouble powering them, something to 3 - 3.5W and thus gives apparent poor performance. Rumor for same modules used for the N036 radar for PAK FA and there is total power being sent to the radar is around 10 - 15KW and gives roughly rumored or theoretical 400km detection range of the Irbis E, which requires similar amount of power.

The focus will be to keep costs low... don't try to make it a super plane... fit mature and capable systems... don't try to make it everything to everyone like the F-35s.

GarryB wrote:The focus will be to keep costs low... don't try to make it a super plane... fit mature and capable systems... don't try to make it everything to everyone like the F-35s.

Well what wonders me is - why MiG´s representative explicitly mentioned MiG-35. If this is 35 frame then why not MiG-35M? Or this is going to frame remake?


BTW mentioning F-35 actually some solutions were borrowed fomr Yak-141 which IMHO should be resurrected for navy.

near the end of video about F-35. I am not sure how much this is true and how much constructors´ perception.

When they say they will use the MiG-35 as the basis, I imagine it will be mostly of its subsystems and possibly engines.  Modified RD-33 engines could very well do the job just fine.

Chances are, it will be something much like MiG-35 but just airframe changes and powersupply.  Let us not forget, that the MiG-29's suffer from lower detection/engagement ranges (noticed this on both its ESA and AESA radars) that seems to be derived from power supply issues.  If they can fix this, they could very well have a powerful aircraft in a small package.  Using current technologies will just speed up development as well as reducing costs.

At this point, with Mikoyans poor number of orders, they will need to come up with something soon or they will fall behind greatly and even possibly lose itself entirely (although, they could use the extra space at sokol plant to produce more sukhoi parts but that is besides the point). So they will need to come up with something that will be either both export oriented or domestic demand, and an aircraft that is both competitive and cheap. Russia will need this in order to help itself develop a capable airforce as now the budgets have been changing.

I suspect what they mean by being based on the MiG-35 is that it will use the same basic layout... ie twin fins and two engines etc etc.

Likely slightly wider engine separation, and an internal weapon bay fitted between the engines... perhaps even something radical like wingtip pods with combination targetting pods and jamming pods fitted, perhaps with a wing tip WVR missile position mounted internally...